What the Lions means / Nail your colours to Devin Toner

Forum for discussion of the British and Irish Lions trip to South Africa in 2009

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Mauler
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by Mauler »

[quote="Donny B]

Do you actually think Johnny Sexton would swap any of his three Heineken Cups or two Six Nations Championships for being part of that over-hyped shitshow in Australia three years ago??[/quote]

You forgot to mention his Amlin Cup medal
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by simonokeeffe »

Once more we underestimate the appeal of Dai Young
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Oldschool
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by Oldschool »

Donny B. wrote:
Mauler wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:none of us want to see players get wrecked and we're all Leinster fans before Lions
Actually, I have far stronger memories of watching the 1983 Lions and the 9 Irish lads selected for that tour and the 1989 tour to Australia, than I do of any Leinster team prior to about 1995. So for me the pecking order of my support will always be Lions. Ireland and then Leinster
Lions before Ireland, seriously? So a team made up of predominately non-Irish players (and in fact none at all in the winning Lions tests in Australia in 89) means more to you than an Ireland team winning?

And again, would a Lions team dominated by English and Welsh players with one or two Paddys thrown in beating NZ this summer mean more to you than Ireland's win in Chicago?

Frankly, I don't believe you.

We are now capable of beating these teams regularly on our own, as England are. Wales and Scotland should aspire to the same. The days of the four home unions cobbling together a team to travel down is an outdated concept and these days is frankly demeaning and only kept going as a commercial cash cow. It's also completely unsuited to the modern game when preparation is key and the only chance of success is when a team is in as bad a shambles as Australia were in 2013.

The players may continue to echo the bullshit and hype for Sky, but ask one of them really, would they prefer to be on a national team to beat the All Blacks or a Lions team? There will only be one answer!
Would agree with you re priorities but the Lions is all about money. At a guess the Tri Nations badly need the revenue to survive.
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Laighin Break
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by Laighin Break »

CiaranIrl wrote: I would personally very happily say the following to any player: "The Lions used to mean a lot to me growing up, but for whatever reason, I don't care much about it any more. Maybe I'll care again once its on, but I doubt it. Because I care a lot about Leinster and Ireland, I would personally prefer none of our players get selected, mostly because I would worry about injuries, which have always been really bad on Lions tours."
I double dare you so

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Donny B.
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by Donny B. »

Mauler wrote:
You forgot to mention his Amlin Cup medal
:lol:

Okay, I'll give you that one!!

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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by ronk »

I think the relevance has changed for the Lions, not diminished.

It's still an amazing platform to state your case, as a player, in terms of recognition. Selection marks you out, and a few good performances can change the narrative of how your career is remembered. Look at guys like Kevin Maggs and Paul Wallace who were respected internationals whose reputations and appreciation went way up.

Ditto Heaslip. I remember speaking to people who thought Andy Powell should start ahead of him. That changed forever after that tour.

When Toner gets puts in the mix with other Lions it might really change how non-Irish fans see him.

The closeness of the home nations around the Lions feeds into the attractiveness of the 6N as a tournament. Losing the Lions could affect that.




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Ultra Vires
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by Ultra Vires »

ronk wrote:I think the relevance has changed for the Lions, not diminished.

It's still an amazing platform to state your case, as a player, in terms of recognition. Selection marks you out, and a few good performances can change the narrative of how your career is remembered. Look at guys like Kevin Maggs and Paul Wallace who were respected internationals whose reputations and appreciation went way up.

Ditto Heaslip. I remember speaking to people who thought Andy Powell should start ahead of him. That changed forever after that tour.

When Toner gets puts in the mix with other Lions it might really change how non-Irish fans see him.

The closeness of the home nations around the Lions feeds into the attractiveness of the 6N as a tournament. Losing the Lions could affect that.




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What are "the home nations"?

My nation is Ireland. It's my home. The UK is not. Any former empire trying to claim me or my country or players from my country can go jump.

This is an organisation/team that only included the word Ireland in its name in 2001. They have zero respect for us or our history.

You can dress it up any way you want but the reality is it is a United Kingdom team. A UK team and establishment that is so outdated that it still thinks Ireland is essentially occupied and part of said dead empire. They play in red jerseys to represent the redcoats (army) of the former Brit empire.

I'm sure on a personal level there's great novelty and excitement in getting to play in a combined team of the best players from four countries, however in this day and age if the concept is to be pursued then it should be a combined European team including players from France and Italy (if good enough). Otherwise Irishmen should have stopped playing for this ridiculous outfit in 1922.

This is not some anti-Brit rant. Those times are well past in this country (though the English seem intent on resurrecting disharmony again with their Brexit abomination).

We should have enough pride, principles, maturity and talent in our team and our country to not be so desperate to be part of somebody else's sham imperial party.

The British "and Irish" Lions bugs me in the same way that the English soccer premiership and those hundreds of thousands of "diehard" Irish "fans" bugs me. If you like soccer support your local team and stop tagging on to someone else's team. Ditto this obsolete and over commercialised Brits on tour extravaganza.
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blockhead
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by blockhead »

Ultra Vires wrote:
ronk wrote:I think the relevance has changed for the Lions, not diminished.

It's still an amazing platform to state your case, as a player, in terms of recognition. Selection marks you out, and a few good performances can change the narrative of how your career is remembered. Look at guys like Kevin Maggs and Paul Wallace who were respected internationals whose reputations and appreciation went way up.

Ditto Heaslip. I remember speaking to people who thought Andy Powell should start ahead of him. That changed forever after that tour.

When Toner gets puts in the mix with other Lions it might really change how non-Irish fans see him.

The closeness of the home nations around the Lions feeds into the attractiveness of the 6N as a tournament. Losing the Lions could affect that.




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What are "the home nations"?

My nation is Ireland. It's my home. The UK is not. Any former empire trying to claim me or my country or players from my country can go jump.

This is an organisation/team that only included the word Ireland in its name in 2001. They have zero respect for us or our history.

You can dress it up any way you want but the reality is it is a United Kingdom team. A UK team and establishment that is so outdated that it still thinks Ireland is essentially occupied and part of said dead empire. They play in red jerseys to represent the redcoats (army) of the former Brit empire.

I'm sure on a personal level there's great novelty and excitement in getting to play in a combined team of the best players from four countries, however in this day and age if the concept is to be pursued then it should be a combined European team including players from France and Italy (if good enough). Otherwise Irishmen should have stopped playing for this ridiculous outfit in 1922.

This is not some anti-Brit rant. Those times are well past in this country (though the English seem intent on resurrecting disharmony again with their Brexit abomination).

We should have enough pride, principles, maturity and talent in our team and our country to not be so desperate to be part of somebody else's sham imperial party.

The British "and Irish" Lions bugs me in the same way that the English soccer premiership and those hundreds of thousands of "diehard" Irish "fans" bugs me. If you like soccer support your local team and stop tagging on to someone else's team. Ditto this obsolete and over commercialised Brits on tour extravaganza.
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Laighin Break
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by Laighin Break »

Agree for the most part except that it's a GB team rather than a UK team.
We all know how bad the English are but it surprises me that Welsh players refer to it as british Lions too. I'd hope that Scots at least don't.

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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by jezzer »

Just told the wife we're moving to Miami. Can't support the Dolphins unless I'm from there. She's having trouble seeing my point.

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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by All Blacks nil »

jezzer wrote:Just told the wife we're moving to Miami. Can't support the Dolphins unless I'm from there. She's having trouble seeing my point.
Leave her behind.

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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by jezzer »

All Blacks nil wrote:
jezzer wrote:Just told the wife we're moving to Miami. Can't support the Dolphins unless I'm from there. She's having trouble seeing my point.
Leave her behind.
:lol:

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olaf the fat
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by olaf the fat »

There is a great tradition of Irish players playing with the Lions, and don't think that should be just dumped. I would be prone to the odd anti brit rant, but nowadays its more the SKY Sports Loins :wink: than the British and Irish Loins!

Does it matter as much now when we have the Pro12 and champions cup, RWC, and so many summer tours and autumn internationals? Its a nice recognition for the players but its just does not have the same value as before.
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jezzer
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by jezzer »

I think if the Irish players came away from tours feeling they didn't belong/shouldn't have bothered/felt excluded/felt patronised/couldn't buy into the Lions jersey/..... then there'd be a very strong reason to support what UV says and let Irish involvement in the Lions wither away.

But that's clearly not the case. It's a huge deal for players of all four nations and seems to be almost universally viewed by irish players who go as a high point in their careers, not least because of friendships made with non-Irish players.

So, the tour is for the players. If they want to keep playing for the Lions, why does anyone need to hurl from the ditch about a lack of belonging or legitimacy. Let them decide.

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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by riocard911 »

jezzer wrote:I think if the Irish players came away from tours feeling they didn't belong/shouldn't have bothered/felt excluded/felt patronised/couldn't buy into the Lions jersey/..... then there'd be a very strong reason to support what UV says and let Irish involvement in the Lions wither away.

But that's clearly not the case. It's a huge deal for players of all four nations and seems to be almost universally viewed by irish players who go as a high point in their careers, not least because of friendships made with non-Irish players.

So, the tour is for the players. If they want to keep playing for the Lions, why does anyone need to hurl from the ditch about a lack of belonging or legitimacy. Let them decide.
+1

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Oldschool
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by Oldschool »

Ultra Vires wrote:
ronk wrote:I think the relevance has changed for the Lions, not diminished.

It's still an amazing platform to state your case, as a player, in terms of recognition. Selection marks you out, and a few good performances can change the narrative of how your career is remembered. Look at guys like Kevin Maggs and Paul Wallace who were respected internationals whose reputations and appreciation went way up.

Ditto Heaslip. I remember speaking to people who thought Andy Powell should start ahead of him. That changed forever after that tour.

When Toner gets puts in the mix with other Lions it might really change how non-Irish fans see him.

The closeness of the home nations around the Lions feeds into the attractiveness of the 6N as a tournament. Losing the Lions could affect that.




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What are "the home nations"?

My nation is Ireland. It's my home. The UK is not. Any former empire trying to claim me or my country or players from my country can go jump.

This is an organisation/team that only included the word Ireland in its name in 2001. They have zero respect for us or our history.

You can dress it up any way you want but the reality is it is a United Kingdom team. A UK team and establishment that is so outdated that it still thinks Ireland is essentially occupied and part of said dead empire. They play in red jerseys to represent the redcoats (army) of the former Brit empire.

I'm sure on a personal level there's great novelty and excitement in getting to play in a combined team of the best players from four countries, however in this day and age if the concept is to be pursued then it should be a combined European team including players from France and Italy (if good enough). Otherwise Irishmen should have stopped playing for this ridiculous outfit in 1922.

This is not some anti-Brit rant. Those times are well past in this country (though the English seem intent on resurrecting disharmony again with their Brexit abomination).

We should have enough pride, principles, maturity and talent in our team and our country to not be so desperate to be part of somebody else's sham imperial party.

The British "and Irish" Lions bugs me in the same way that the English soccer premiership and those hundreds of thousands of "diehard" Irish "fans" bugs me. If you like soccer support your local team and stop tagging on to someone else's team. Ditto this obsolete and over commercialised Brits on tour extravaganza.
You need to redirect your angst toward the European Empire Nations lije Germany and France who have taken over the GB mantle and are doing their best to screw us.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

jezzer wrote:It's a huge deal for players of all four nations and seems to be almost universally viewed by irish players who go as a high point in their careers, not least because of friendships made with non-Irish players.

So, the tour is for the players. If they want to keep playing for the Lions, why does anyone need to hurl from the ditch about a lack of belonging or legitimacy. Let them decide.
100% agree. I've gone off the Lions tbh. 2005 ruined it for me, 2009 was okay, and 2013 was rubbish IMO. Australia just weren't good enough, they were a shambles actually. That said, sort of looking forward to this one because it's NZ and will be so competitive.

But I would love to see my favourite Irish players make it and do really well.

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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by Lar »

Ultra Vires wrote:
ronk wrote:I think the relevance has changed for the Lions, not diminished.

It's still an amazing platform to state your case, as a player, in terms of recognition. Selection marks you out, and a few good performances can change the narrative of how your career is remembered. Look at guys like Kevin Maggs and Paul Wallace who were respected internationals whose reputations and appreciation went way up.

Ditto Heaslip. I remember speaking to people who thought Andy Powell should start ahead of him. That changed forever after that tour.

When Toner gets puts in the mix with other Lions it might really change how non-Irish fans see him.

The closeness of the home nations around the Lions feeds into the attractiveness of the 6N as a tournament. Losing the Lions could affect that.




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What are "the home nations"?

My nation is Ireland. It's my home. The UK is not. Any former empire trying to claim me or my country or players from my country can go jump.

This is an organisation/team that only included the word Ireland in its name in 2001. They have zero respect for us or our history.

You can dress it up any way you want but the reality is it is a United Kingdom team. A UK team and establishment that is so outdated that it still thinks Ireland is essentially occupied and part of said dead empire. They play in red jerseys to represent the redcoats (army) of the former Brit empire.

I'm sure on a personal level there's great novelty and excitement in getting to play in a combined team of the best players from four countries, however in this day and age if the concept is to be pursued then it should be a combined European team including players from France and Italy (if good enough). Otherwise Irishmen should have stopped playing for this ridiculous outfit in 1922.

This is not some anti-Brit rant. Those times are well past in this country (though the English seem intent on resurrecting disharmony again with their Brexit abomination).

We should have enough pride, principles, maturity and talent in our team and our country to not be so desperate to be part of somebody else's sham imperial party.

The British "and Irish" Lions bugs me in the same way that the English soccer premiership and those hundreds of thousands of "diehard" Irish "fans" bugs me. If you like soccer support your local team and stop tagging on to someone else's team. Ditto this obsolete and over commercialised Brits on tour extravaganza.
Sorry UV but that comes across as an entirely anti-British rant. I am no longer a fan of the Lions concept (although no doubt I will watch the games with interest this summer) and I would prefer that as few Irish players are picked as possible, at the same time accepting that for a player it is a big honour to be picked for the Lions.

You are wrong about the jersey also. If my recollection is right the jersey was multi-coloured initially and then was blue for many of the earlier tours and only changed to red in 1950s (I have no idea why - but I doubt it has anything at all to do with redcoats).

There was much to admire about the Lions concept prior to professionalism in Rugby. It was undoubtedly a highlight of a player's career. But back then tours were for months at a time. Teams could be fashioned and made to play a particular way especially as players were essentially all amateurs and the time training for or on a Lions tour probably exceeded what you did with your country. No longer since professionalism with shorter tours and club and country obligations at a far greater level than ever before. The Lions are solely about generating money now.

Like it or not the Lions came about when these islands were ruled as one. The initial tours were tours by a "British Isles" side which geographically actually remains an accurate description. There is no evidence that it is a "A UK team and establishment that is so outdated that it still thinks Ireland is essentially occupied and part of said dead empire." Irish players have played for and distinguished themselves as Lions over the years and indeed I would guess without checking the figures that Ireland has been proportionately over-represented in terms of the captaincy certainly in the last 60 years or more.

So I am with you in wanting the concept scrapped but not for the same reasons.
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riocard911
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by riocard911 »

Interestingly Clive Woodward recently suggested the comparative lack of success of Ireland, Scotland and Wales against the Southern Hemisphere Big 3 was down to the formers' players overvaluing participation on a Lions tour as opposed to playing for their own countries, whereas for the English donning the white jersey with the Red Rose always came before the red one with four national flowers. Post-colonial inferiority complex on the part of the Celts perhaps? Who knows? Maybe Woodward is on to something. Fact is, that the Charioteers are the only "home nation" - pardon my use of this awful term - to have won a Rugby World cup, while 28 years since the inception of the tournament the Irish haven't even managed to get past the quarter-final.....

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jezzer
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Re: Toner signs central contract for 3 years

Post by jezzer »

riocard911 wrote:Interestingly Clive Woodward recently suggested the comparative lack of success of Ireland, Scotland and Wales against the Southern Hemisphere Big 3 was down to the formers' players overvaluing participation on a Lions tour as opposed to playing for their own countries, whereas for the English donning the white jersey with the Red Rose always came before the red one with four national flowers. Post-colonial inferiority complex on the part of the Celts perhaps? Who knows? Maybe Woodward is on to something. Fact is, that the Charioteers are the only "home nation" - pardon my use of this awful term - to have won a Rugby World cup, while 28 years since the inception of the tournament the Irish haven't even managed to get past the quarter-final.....
It's definitely not because they have 10 times the population of these other 3 countries who are overvaluing Lions places.

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