England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

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Dexter
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Dexter »

Logorrhea wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 8:59 pm
I don't know. I don't get all the negativity. I thought we played what is at the moment the best team in the world, away from home, under-strength and with an inexperienced young team and we were competitive. At one stage the game looked like it could be a 30-40 point drubbing, but it wasn't. It could also have been closer.

- For all the talk of English dominance, they didn't leave much out on the pitch. We defended really well.
- We managed to find parity in the scrum, and addressed issues with the lineout. Once we fixed the lineout we instantly looked more competitive.
- The back three got peppered by the English kicking game, and I thought they managed it really well. England got little change from Keenan at 15. He covered the ground and managed the high ball so well.

Can I also say, the relentless negativity from the RTE commentating team was impossible to sit through. I changed the channel after about 30 minutes.
Completely agree on everything. The RTE commentary was atrocious. Every time an Ireland player was tackled he was "SMASHED" according to Cahill or Tremonjus (who is normally ok in fairness).
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Keith »

Dexter wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 9:04 pm
Logorrhea wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 8:59 pm
I don't know. I don't get all the negativity. I thought we played what is at the moment the best team in the world, away from home, under-strength and with an inexperienced young team and we were competitive. At one stage the game looked like it could be a 30-40 point drubbing, but it wasn't. It could also have been closer.

- For all the talk of English dominance, they didn't leave much out on the pitch. We defended really well.
- We managed to find parity in the scrum, and addressed issues with the lineout. Once we fixed the lineout we instantly looked more competitive.
- The back three got peppered by the English kicking game, and I thought they managed it really well. England got little change from Keenan at 15. He covered the ground and managed the high ball so well.

Can I also say, the relentless negativity from the RTE commentating team was impossible to sit through. I changed the channel after about 30 minutes.
Completely agree on everything. The RTE commentary was atrocious. Every time an Ireland player was tackled he was "SMASHED" according to Cahill or Tremonjus (who is normally ok in fairness).
The funniest one was when they called the Underhill "try" as a try. Even though it was as blatant penalty as you can get.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Logorrhea »

Forgot to say the bench did well. I thought they would be a weakness but they were a strength.

Itoge is a f*cking monster. I always through he was a little overhyped, but what a player.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Dexter »

Keith wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 9:07 pm
Dexter wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 9:04 pm
Logorrhea wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 8:59 pm
I don't know. I don't get all the negativity. I thought we played what is at the moment the best team in the world, away from home, under-strength and with an inexperienced young team and we were competitive. At one stage the game looked like it could be a 30-40 point drubbing, but it wasn't. It could also have been closer.

- For all the talk of English dominance, they didn't leave much out on the pitch. We defended really well.
- We managed to find parity in the scrum, and addressed issues with the lineout. Once we fixed the lineout we instantly looked more competitive.
- The back three got peppered by the English kicking game, and I thought they managed it really well. England got little change from Keenan at 15. He covered the ground and managed the high ball so well.

Can I also say, the relentless negativity from the RTE commentating team was impossible to sit through. I changed the channel after about 30 minutes.
Completely agree on everything. The RTE commentary was atrocious. Every time an Ireland player was tackled he was "SMASHED" according to Cahill or Tremonjus (who is normally ok in fairness).
The funniest one was when they called the Underhill "try" as a try. Even though it was as blatant penalty as you can get.
Almost as if they didn't know the laws...
The fawning over the England players was sickening. Unbecoming of them :wink:
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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

I know Mr. Farrell is only a few games into his tenure but I do hope we get to the point where I don't feel "we're better than this" after every IRL V ENG game. felt the same after the salarycens quarters and for the last few encounters with Eddies lot.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

Is there an ex international commentator who knows less about the infringements as they happen in a game than tremenjous?

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by hugonaut »

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 11:06 pm
Is there an ex international commentator who knows less about the infringements as they happen in a game than tremenjous?
I won't have a word against Tremenjous.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by ronk »

We conceded 2 tries in 2 minutes. Then turned down a kickable penalty only to lose the lineout.

12-0 down at 24 minutes gone in a physical game like that, you have to take the points, even just for the effect it has on the English defence.

There were some good breaks, we made chances. We werent better, but I think we were competitive in areas I expected us to struggle.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by dropkick »

I'm happy enough. We should never accept losing but at least have a bit of fight and front up. Unlike the last 3 matches against England, they did those things.


Hopefully it provides Farrell with a clearer picture of where Ireland are at. It should! Once again England looked better coached and they've developed a style now that involves kicking long and defending aggressively. Irelands style of play plays right into their hands.


Irelands possession based game plan isnt working. It's low percentage rugby that is predictable and designed to beat weaker teams. The more you have the ball these days the more likely you'll get turned over because of the new ruck interpretations. So they need to move the ball around quicker or try more variety of kicks. The try came from a chip over the defense and Farrell should have scored another from a kick through.
Bigger teams are slower to turn.


Byrne and Aki are too predictable or slow. There's a reason Carty got picked ahead of Byrne for the world cup. Aki's ball carrying doesn't really work against that quality of opposition. Farrell was having some success because he was carrying wider against English backs.


​​​​​​Irish players were being lined up to be smashed far too often. That's where Farrell and his coaches will need to come up with some innovations. They're not too far off imo but just need to try more kicks in behind the defensive wall, move the ball faster, have a bit more threat and creativity all around the 9, 10, 12 zone. In other words have more variety in attack.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Logorrhea »

ronk wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 11:46 pm
We werent better, but I think we were competitive in areas I expected us to struggle.
Sums it up well. We weren't better, but we weren't as bad as some people seem to want us to have been.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by leinsterforever »

dropkick wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 12:24 am
I'm happy enough. We should never accept losing but at least have a bit of fight and front up. Unlike the last 3 matches against England, they did those things.


Hopefully it provides Farrell with a clearer picture of where Ireland are at. It should! Once again England looked better coached and they've developed a style now that involves kicking long and defending aggressively. Irelands style of play plays right into their hands.


Irelands possession based game plan isnt working. It's low percentage rugby that is predictable and designed to beat weaker teams. The more you have the ball these days the more likely you'll get turned over because of the new ruck interpretations. So they need to move the ball around quicker or try more variety of kicks. The try came from a chip over the defense and Farrell should have scored another from a kick through.
Bigger teams are slower to turn.


Byrne and Aki are too predictable or slow. There's a reason Carty got picked ahead of Byrne for the world cup. Aki's ball carrying doesn't really work against that quality of opposition. Farrell was having some success because he was carrying wider against English backs.


​​​​​​Irish players were being lined up to be smashed far too often. That's where Farrell and his coaches will need to come up with some innovations. They're not too far off imo but just need to try more kicks in behind the defensive wall, move the ball faster, have a bit more threat and creativity all around the 9, 10, 12 zone. In other words have more variety in attack.
I don't like joining a pile-on, but the way Byrne runs with the ball is a concern. Defenders can just drift off him on to the players he's passing to. At one stage he was even moving backwards as he passed. I was thinking during the game it would have been good to have Cooney and Frawley on the bench to respectively play what's in front of them as the game broke up and take the ball flatter.

This long kicking England do is something that's almost completely disappeared from Irish Rugby since probably about 8 years ago. Short contestable kicks have been all the rage for the last 5 years, reaching their peak maybe around 2017. I'd like to see a return to more use of long kicks.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Fan with smartphone »

Itoje is a really superb defensive player. I didn’t think he was illegal at all. In the air, or on the ground, or in the hit, or in the maul; he is, to say the least, a handful.

We took contact a lot. Now there was a lot of pretending to pass, which is progress, but not much passing. Schmidt went down this road but it was so organised and based on the premise that everyone knew their job and would perform it as cleaners. We are unlikely to be as organised again under anyone else, so we do really need to start passing. Pre contact or after it. A fast game can suit us - we are fit and skilled.

We are less disciplined too I think, but unusually, this mightn't be such a bad thing. Under Joe, we tried to be squeaky, squeaky clean at all times. I agree with it myself to be honest, but if you are totally dogmatic on anything, it can become a weakness or be used against you. It looks like we will cross the odd boundary now. That’s a dangerous dalliance, but if we can control that sufficiently - we don’t have to be perfect - it mightn’t be such a terrible thing.

The lineout has been frustrating and yes is a real problem - England were more dangerous on our lineouts in their 22 than we were! I don’t think it’s gonna be a lifelong issue for Kelleher though and I think he is well ahead as our best hooker. We tried to be a bit too clever targeting Roux, and look, Itoje made some top class plays on Ryan. Good learning in that. Itoje has a year on Ryan and whilst it’s a case of irresistible force meeting immovable object, I think in time and with a bit of help from his teammates the irresistible force can win out.

Keenan and Byrne I don’t think are quite ready for this level at this point. I like Keenan’s skillset at 15, though he has to produce on that. His kick in the second half was a bad error. Byrne can make it I think but is gonna have to play closer to the line. He took a hit at one stage where he drew them in and we looked like stretching them. He may have to do more of that. For both of them though today is a help.

Our centres were smashing it up from too far back. I do like Aki. He’s proven he can do it with Henshaw before. I haven’t seen a statement display from Farrell yet and today wasn’t what he would have wanted.

Connors I think is a success this last 2 weeks and I think you’ll see a response from Murray. I don’t think he’s done. I’m hoping for the same from Henderson. We have a number of 10s - Byrne among them - jostling at provincial level. Doris is a big success obviously. We have other good forwards knocking about too, so there is the bones of getting this team back up to being a top rate side. That’s all I wanted to see today to be honest, that we had that.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Blueberry »

Bottom line is I don't think either team played particularly well. Ireland hung in there for large parts of the game shooting ourselves in the foot with the set piece issues and England bar one bit of brilliance from May showed little of interest but maybe they didn't have to.

Across all of the Autumn games the standard really hasn't been great and it's to be expected, without crowds the games are flat and its a miracle the players are putting on the show they are. It's intangible in many ways but all of the games are just missing that little spark that ain't going to be there until we get full stadiums again. Can't come soon enough.....

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by sunshiner1 »

by keith

Yeah true, like I said Byrne may very well not be up to this level. But at the same time you can't just throw a new 10 in behind a pack being decimated (twice now) in Twickenham and expect him to flourish. Any fly half would find it tough out there today. I don't think a lot Irish rugby fans realise how dire our 10 situation is and how Sexton is covering that up. I mean just look at who was the replacement FH today, somebody who knew he couldn't get anywhere near an England squad so chanced his arm over here. We have no chance.
It amazes me that Carty hasn't being given a chance. He's being going well and has shown creativity in situations like this before. For me Ross Byrne is done internationally, he doesn't have the spark of creativity to be a world class 10. Kelleher is someone as well who should be looking over his shoulder, this isn't the first game this has happened. If Sean Cronin had being out there doing what he did, there would be 5 or 6 more pages here going on about him. I'm not writing off Kellher but he needs to step up and put in the performances that people know that he can.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by lummix »

Thought ross byrne was very disappointing yesterday, the worrying thing is the game was made for his skill set and he didn't seize the opportunity. He should have been kicking all day, corners cross field kicks etc. I think it's a mental thing at this level now as much as anything.

Gibson park looked completely out of his depth, if. Murray had of started we actually might have won the game despite everything. I think gibson park is good for chasing a game but he is to loose to control a top level international from the start in my opinion. Is he any better than marmion, mcgrath, casey cooney etc?

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Ruckedtobits »

R Byrne tried a couple of cross-field kicks early which were inaccurate. Part of his difficulty is that the vast majority of his professional career has been behind a dominant pack. Playing with a pack who are being dominated is a very different ball game. Pressure of space, pressure of time, pressure of execution, all combined with fear of blockdown, fear of being caught in possession or fear of being intercepted.

Those pressures and fears cannot be rehearsed. The flitting thoughts of each, crowd out the almost similtaneous calculations about 'where is their winger / full back?'; 'where is my winger?' 'How much hang-time do I need?'. Unless you've been there or spoken in detail with someone who has and who trusts you closely enough to be absolutely honest, it is impossible to appreciate the effects of such pressure.

These are some of the reasons why I consider that Carty would have been a much better selection yesterday, but may not be the most suitable against Georgia. Carty has developed in a much tougher environment. He has learned what's possible, both personally and for teammates, under such pressures. He has also come through such pressures to have great days, under both Lam and Friend. He may be an option if we have to face France in this competition, even from the bench. But the liklehood is that Billy Burns will fill the backup place until the 6N.
Last edited by Ruckedtobits on November 22nd, 2020, 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Atlas »


Ruckedtobits wrote:R Byrne tried a couple of cross-field kicks early which were inaccurate. Part of his difficulty is that the vast majority of his professional career has been behind a dominant pack. Playing with a pack who are being dominated is a very different ball game. Pressure of space, pressure of time, pressure of execution, all combined with fear of blockdown, fear of being caught in possession or fear of being intercepted.
Is Harry B not going to have the exact problem then?

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by munster#1 »

Having watched the game again, we were bullied up front.
Their pack had the measure of ours and then some.
Not sure who we could have picked that may have improved that side of the performance.

Stander, who has been Ireland’s best player over the last few games, was very quiet this time out. I don’t think the shift in position and the change in his performance is just a coincident. Dorris had a good game, but it would have been better if he had been picked at 6 with Stander retaining the 8 jersey.

Where we lost that game IMO was in the coaching box. Ireland looked very limited in attack.
The score board flattered us, and but for an off the cuff kick from Burns, we would have been held scoreless.

What you witnessed yesterday, was what Munster fans have had to endure over the last few seasons. The ineptitude to not understand that you need to change things up when plan A is clearly not working.
As a fan this is frustrating as Farrell has had more time with this squad than any Irish coach has had with a squad outside of a World Cup year, and they still looked poorly coached.

Farrell should have been more ruthless, and Kelleher should have been called ashore before the halftime whistle. He has shown a number of times that he is not a great thrower of the ball, and the lineout suffers any time he plays. He is definitely one for the future, but like with basics of any position, you don’t learn that at international level, that should be done by playing for your club.

I agree with the previous comments on the half backs. Both looked like they were in over their heads. Perhaps selecting Murray with Byrne might have been a better option for Byrne.
I feel for Byrne, he has had very few opportunities, and yesterday will not have done much for his confidence.

I know this is highly unlikely to happen as the Irish selection policy is ultra conservative, but with the 6 nations only around the corner I wonder if right now would be the time to accelerate the development of H Byrne or Healy with a view to having them bench for the 6 nations behind Sexton.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Oldschool »

What was the game plan.
JGP and Ross both had poor games.
Ross was standing very deep, is that how he usually plays.
JGP usually a snappy passer was throwing high passes behind, is that how he usually plays.
Why wasn't Ross on the bench last week if he was going to start this week in the event that Sexton got injured.
Ross however looked out of it, not up for it at all.
Decision making.
Penalties. Again????
Lineout calls. If you're lineout is struggling then give your hooker a chance, first lineout over the top no empathy.
Who was pack leader or calling the lineouts.
Sexton is only the best OH available (but not good enough any more) because Joey was f^cked up but more importantly noone else was groomed.
Carty went to the RWC, thrown in at the deep end and then that experience was just thrown away.
At least one of Carty or Byrne should have seen a lot more game time for Ireland and would be much better players for it now.
Sexton is the problem not the solution, he wouldn't have done any better than Ross yesterday, England and Saracens have his number.
If you don't believe that then look at his performances against both over the last couple of years.
Players.
Bealham take a bow, I'm betting I'm not the only one who was thinking, things are going to get worse when we empty the bench except maybe at HB.
Porter
Stockdale scored a try that might just give him the spark he needs.
Fitness was excellent.
Coaches need to look at themselves.
England were a team, we weren't.
England knew what they were doing and everyone bought in.
Ireland didn't have clarity of purpose.
That's up to the coaches to sort out.
England well drilled, boring, winning.
Ireland not well drilled from which everything else doesn't flow.
Anyway lads and lassies, keep up the analysis, it's very informative.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: England v Ireland 21 November 15:00

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Anybody who didn't think that our maul, scrum, lineout and breakdow were going to be under severe pressure yesterday was living in the world of hope, dreams and memories.

This is a very good English pack by any standards and possibly their best since 2003. The game management of their half-backs is superb and the Game Plan and tactics of the Coach are ruthless. Willis didn't even make the bench because his style conflicts with that of Underhill and the latter complements Billy V and Curry better. They didn't move the ball through the hands of their backs as that may have given us a sniff. Neither Youngs nor Farrell made a line break as that may have given our back-row an opportunity.

We can play differently but it's going to require practice and possibly some different players. Unlike the previous three games, we created scoring chances - Earls (1st half) & Farrell (2nd half) - and either of those might have made England alter their tactics. We didn't kick every penalty opportunity. France v England did and maybe you have to against this pack.

We created attacking opportunities for our lineout maul and although we messed up the throw / lift, there is no evidence from either yesterday or the three previous contests, that our maul attack would have produced any results.

For as long as this English pack stays together, no Irish pack is going to overpower them. So, let's find a tactic to avoid the panzer corps and get around the outside or over the top and check out their turning circle and reverse gearing.

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