Ireland v South Africa (Sat 10th Nov, 17:30)

[fourthirtythree]

Thanks Cormac. Somehow I had managed to forget that woeful performance.

I wish.

[darkside lighteside]

It only highlights how truly terrible he has been, because even with all those wins in the grand slam season, he barely manages one win in two over his time in charge

To expand on this, here are some 'objective' facts about Kidney's win ratio:

Total: 53%
Since 2009 Grand Slam: 47%
Since 2009 Grand Slam, excluding Canada/US/Russia: 41%
Since 2009 Grand Slam, versus 'major'* test sides: 38%**

* I include 6N and Rugby Champ sides
** of these 12 victories, 6 have come against Italy and Scotland

[Golf Man]

It is justifiable on these results to understand why Kidney and the IRFU felt that he should continue - like EOS in 2007 he should have gone - but the facts can't be ignored (especially if you look purely at results - which whether we like it or not, most unions do)

I dont disagree with you that this is the Union's thinking but again like you I believe Kidney's time was up after the World Cup.

If as we suspect this is how the Union think it bang's of a lack of desire, belief and continued and accepted underachievement. It's the type of bullshit approach that would still have Leinster and Munster getting thumped on every visit to France as long as they picked up a big win at home every other season. Our whole structure is ultimately geared toward's team Ireland (at the expense of the provinces continuity) yet ultimately we are to accept that at the top table we will get beaten by everyone else bar possibly Scotland?

I wont accept that with the player's we have. We caused an upset in the world cup because we beat Aus and therefore it was successful you say. But that was only an upset because of how badly we have been playing. We should have been going into the World Cup after beating bad French and English teams. We should have thumped the cr@p US, Hammered the Russians and not conceded silly try's. Should have beaten Aus by alot more on the day (fine you will blame Sexton but our style of play when dominating didnt allow us to pull away). Italy we hammered but still only scored 3 tries when it could have been 8 (and they were as poor an Italy team as I have seen in a good few years). Then Wales literally blew us away, it was a match I should have been shouting at the tv blaming everyone and anyone but we were so poor and Wales got their try's so easy I actually had nothing to be raging about bar our very obvious inadequacies.


So all in all we accept failure and should not dare to think otherwise. Sad outlook. And why must we run the charade that everything the Union does is in pursuit of winning a world cup?

The IRFU gave DK an extension before the WC - I'm guessing finances played a big part - thats not his fault, his the IRFU's. I'm suggesting that DK should have walked away (in the same way that it was shameful that EOS didn't walk away after the 2007 fiasco)

On the last WC we can analyse the games, the performances, the opposition but teh simple fact is that we won all 4 group games - to say we should have beaten Australia and Italy by more is disingenuous - we beat them simple as

Not sure why you think I would blame Sexton for us not winning by more - he missed some kicks - but our gameplan that day was to beat Oz up front from the first whistle and to keep beating them up front - its hard to argue with a gameplan that delivers a fully deserved victory

Wales did a complete number on us, we had some brutal performances and DK should have walked based on that game imo

[Golf Man]

I will leave the first part of the post mostly alone. I disagree. What France's "expectations" were are irrelevant. The fact that the were imploding at that point was very much to me and should have been to any country with ambition and as far as I'm concerned it did open a path the the final that could have been taken but wasn't. NZ bottled it in the final BTW and France had got their act together then by ignoring their head coach.

I have often wished for a French revolution in Ireland but I digress.

France were in freefall - England couldn't take advantage, Wales couldn't take advantage and NZ were really lucky to beat them - to suggest that we only had to beat Wales to get to a final (given our record against France) is ludicrious
I just want to highlight the second part. I look at the results. He should not have had his contract renewed before the WC, as predicted by pretty much everyone, and he should have been thanked and given his P45 after.

Here's a quote from Suisse, the point being that if you look at his actual win ratio, it's awful. Awful. And it's killing the game here

"It doesn't seem to matter we never challange for the 6 Nations title anymore (IIRC, only in 2002 and 2008 going into the final weekend under EOS was that the case), or that we are experiencing our heaviest ever defeat, or that we can't beat Wales anymore (we lost twice to Wales in EOS' tensure - under Kidney, we've lost 3 in a row), or that even Scotland can beat us in Dublin, or.......I'm too busy to check all the results back to Brian Ashton, but I remember doing it before on another thread - we're winning more Cups with our club sides, but losing more games with our national team. We're still experiencing a rise in season ticket sales but Lansdowne is not always full anymore...it was in 1990s when we couldn't win a game."

I don't disagree about Kidneys win record - whether its killing the game here is very debatable

While DK has to go and is a huge problem in himself, the system really really needs to be looked at - the professional provincial structure was established to be of ultimate benefit to the national team - maybe it has developed into a situation where the provinces ultimately benefit more from the system??

[Peg Leg]

maybe it has developed into a situation where the provinces ultimately benefit more from the system??

You can not really believe that?

[Broken Wing]

I don't disagree about Kidneys win record - whether its killing the game here is very debatable

While it may not be killing the game I'm getting almost daily emails from the IRFU about tickets for this weekend so I'm guessing it's having an impact on attendances for the national side.

I know several people who have said they will not be going to see Ireland play as long as Kidney is in charge.

maybe it has developed into a situation where the provinces ultimately benefit more from the system??

That's nonsense and you know it. The provinces seem to be doing better because they are winning trophies and playing exciting rugby while the national team are losing to Scotland and empty handed. The national team are in that position because the coaching team think the best way to win is to give away possession and then fight to get it back just to give it away again all in the hopes of an opposition mistake which leads to a score.

[suisse]

maybe it has developed into a situation where the provinces ultimately benefit more from the system??

How exactly? Isn't it that provinces have shown how to win matches with the same players that Kidney leads to a narrow win over the US? the provinces are better coached because Kidney is hopeless, but how many games do the provinces get to use their best players? Schhmidt leads leinster to successive league finals in spite of kidney and irfu interference. Again, no time to check facts, but I'd say kidney used sexton more in 2011-12 season (or had him
At his disposal) more than Joe.

[jimbobjoe]

Saffa team is up;

http://www.sarugby.net/article.aspx?cat ... id=1662404

Lambie starting at 10, no place for HVDM.

Strong pack, which was to be expected. Back's aren't exceptional. As an optimist I'd say this could be a decent game.

[Maradona10]

In reply to all the people saying that the problem with O'Mahony is his temperament, It's not. The main problem with him is his lack of athleticism. The tuth is that he s just too slow to play blindside, as he regularly lets opposing 8s make yards unopposed off the back of scrums. This is also evident in open play. Yes, he is a good strong ball carrier, but in my opinion he needs to add weight to maximise his ball carrying ability, as he doesn't really have any explosiveness to lose. I think he could have a good future, but not at 6.

[Donny B.]

The Springbok team to face Ireland in Dublin is:

15. Zane Kirchner (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 21caps
14. JP Pietersen (The Sharks) 45 caps
13. Jaco Taute (MTN Golden Lions) 2 caps
12.Jean de Villiers (captain) DHL Western Province 81 caps
11. Francois Hougaard (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 24 caps
10. Pat Lambie (The Sharks) 17 caps
9. Ruan Pienaar (Ulster, N-Ireland) 60 caps
8. Duane Vermeulen (DHL Western Province) 4 caps
7. Willem Alberts (The Sharks) 17 caps
6. Francois Louw (Bath, England) 14 caps
5. Juandré Kruger (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 5 caps
4. Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province) 8 caps
3. Jannie du Plessis (The Sharks) 39 caps
2. Adriaan Strauss (vice-captain, Toyota FS Cheetahs) 18 caps
1. Tendai Mtawarira (The Sharks) 41 caps

Replacements

16. Schalk Brits (Saracens, England) 3 caps
17. CJ van der Linde (MTN Golden Lions) 73 caps
18. Pat Cilliers (MTN Golden Lions) 4 caps
19. Flip van der Merwe (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 20 caps
20. Marcell Coetzee (The Sharks) 9 caps
21. Morné Steyn (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 41 caps
22. Juan de Jongh (DHL Western Province) 12 caps
23. Lwazi Mvovo (The Sharks) 7 caps

[Donny B.]

C.J.'s back!!!!

Quite a few players on the bench who I've never heard of tbh.

[Maradona10]

Saffa team is up;

http://www.sarugby.net/article.aspx?cat ... id=1662404

Lambie starting at 10, no place for HVDM.

Strong pack, which was to be expected. Back's aren't exceptional. As an optimist I'd say this could be a decent game.

That pack will boss ours. I'm really glad JDJ isn't starting though. The kid is a gamebreaker.

[johng]

C.J.'s back!!!!

Quite a few players on the bench who I've never heard of tbh.

zero exposure to s15 then?

[Donny B.]

Am I the only one who thinks their starting props are wildly over-rated?

[Maradona10]

Am I the only one who thinks their starting props are wildly over-rated?

No, I agree with you, but it's not their props I'm worried about. It's their 2nd rows and back row that scare me. Etzebeth is a beast and Alberts is a bear. Also Louw is a class act, but I think he might be carrying a neck injury maybe? He came off early in Bath's last match and seemed to be carrying his head strangely after the match. That's just speculation on my part though.

[johng]

When are they ACTUALLY and officially naming the team? Someone said it was yesterday. Obviously not.

[jimbobjoe]

When are they ACTUALLY and officially naming the team? Someone said it was yesterday. Obviously not.

Tomorrow lunchtime I believe.

[Broken Wing]

GT didn't have the unofficial official team in the paper today so I'm assuming he'll have it tomorrow and they'll confirm it at noon.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

When are they ACTUALLY and officially naming the team? Someone said it was yesterday. Obviously not.

I was caught out waiting for it too. It's tomorrow lunchtime.

That SA team is nowehere near as weak as we were led to believe it would be. Can't see us winning. If Lambie plays really well then I think they'll win quite easily, if not then still think they'll win but only by one score.

[Donny B.]

C.J.'s back!!!!

Quite a few players on the bench who I've never heard of tbh.

zero exposure to s15 then?

Lately yes. Don't have Sky anymore and amn't interested enough to walk dodgy links for it.