Ireland v Italy

[jezzer]

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 52
14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 53
13. Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) 131
12. Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 77
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5
10. Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92) 41
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 25

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 45
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 73
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 37
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 13
5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 90 capt
6. Iain Henderson (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 8
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 12
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) 63

Replacements

16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 33
17. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 6
18. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 3
19. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 1
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 1
21. Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 52
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 8
23. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 24

I would have picked O'Donnell and Zebo for the bench, I think. It would have meant Jordi covering 6 and 8 (rather than 7 & 8, which is more his territory) and some sacrifices in terms of how the backline is covered, but this is a depleted Italian side we're talking about, whose mind is on England. We need to be able to call on some firepower if we need more scores and TOD is a good link guy. Not going to discuss merits of Zeebs over Ferg for sake of avoiding meltdown.

No way we should drop Johnny if fit. I still have niggling doubts about him as a consistent Test outhalf, so I don't say that out of favouritism. But Johnny is a confidence player, who had a wobbly last game. You have to put him back up on the horse and tell him you believe in him 100%.

I thought Jackson was superb at the weekend. Streets ahead of Madigan. I hope he gets a bit of a run on Sat and I'm starting to think he could push Sexton harder than a lot of Leinster/Racing fans might like. But right now, I think Joe made the right call giving Johnny the vote of confidence and a shot at redemption over the next 2 games. Italy should be the confidence boost he needs to get his head right for France in Paris.

[Oldschool]

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 52
14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 53
13. Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) 131
12. Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 77
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5
10. Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92) 41
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 25

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 45
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 73
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 37
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 13
5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 90 capt
6. Iain Henderson (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 8
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 12
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) 63

Replacements

16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 33
17. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 6
18. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 3
19. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 1
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 1
21. Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 52
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 8
23. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 24

I would have picked O'Donnell and Zebo for the bench, I think. It would have meant Jordi covering 6 and 8 (rather than 7 & 8, which is more his territory) and some sacrifices in terms of how the backline is covered, but this is a depleted Italian side we're talking about, whose mind is on England. We need to be able to call on some firepower if we need more scores and TOD is a good link guy. Not going to discuss merits of Zeebs over Ferg for sake of avoiding meltdown.

No way we should drop Johnny if fit. I still have niggling doubts about him as a consistent Test outhalf, so I don't say that out of favouritism. But Johnny is a confidence player, who had a wobbly last game. You have to put him back up on the horse and tell him you believe in him 100%.

I thought Jackson was superb at the weekend. Streets ahead of Madigan. I hope he gets a bit of a run on Sat and I'm starting to think he could push Sexton harder than a lot of Leinster/Racing fans might like. But right now, I think Joe made the right call giving Johnny the vote of confidence and a shot at redemption over the next 2 games. Italy should be the confidence boost he needs to get his head right for France in Paris.

Is TOD fit?
I think Jackson was very conservative as the man in possession. Madigan on the other went for too many 50/50 calls especially in the second half when the weather had deteriorated. However I hope Jackson does get a good 30 mins in case Sexton were to get injured (for the France game)and this is surely the game for it.
Zebo is a tough call but you would only pick him if your intention was to play him against France, at least that's the way I think Joe might be looking at it.

[Oldschool]

Italy without Parisse is like Destiny's Child without Beyonce

RE squad building, look at the 31 man squad we (potentially) have now for RWC. players in bold brought through/backed by Joe, *injured for championship

Healy, McGrath, Killer, Ross, Moore, Fitzpatrick*
Best, Strauss*, Cronin
POC, Ryan*, Toner, Henderson
POM, Heaslip, SOB*, Henry, Ferris*

Murray, Reddan, Boss
Sexton, Madigan(makes the plane for versatility)
Marshall, Darcy, Luke*
Bowe*, Earls*, McFadden,
Kearney, Payne/Henshaw

Moore and McGrath featuring in the matchday 23's (for some time to come)
Payne not IQ yet
So other than Killer I dont see who there is short on international experience/likely to be come RWC

Without even touching backrow you have McCarthy, Jackson, Trimble, DK, Zebo who would not be out of place at all in that squad

I would be concerned that Marshall may not make it for medical reasons. By RWC time Olding may well be the man in possession anyway.
Keatley and JJ could also come into the mix. Both have been on a improving trend this season.

[Golf Man]

Was pointing out we have a sizeable quality squad built up/being built already

Ironically most of the viable changes wouldve gone against building a squad ie recalling guys without much gametime back from injury like Bowe and Ryan
Backing guys whove come in and done well like Henderson, Moore, DK, McGrath etc is building depth

Problem under Kidney and EOS was lack of a bench/stand ins for first 15
Now we're looking at complaining about 3rd choice players in a few positions not getting enough gametime

Bringing back Bowe and Ryan would have no effect on development of a squad - its been developed in their absence - them coming in would add to it

I agree on backing the guys who've come in but especially for props we need at least 3 in each position - there will be 6 props in the WC squad - and 4 of them will play in every game

The comparison with EOS and Kidney isn't really relevant and actually doesn't stand up

Most importantly is the additional prop on the bench, a luxury they never had - a lot of our development is at prop - not sure this would be the case if we had to have 1 prop covering two sides

We had Flannery Best Cronin at hooker which is better than we have now

2011 second rows were POC/DOC/Cullen & Ryan, 2007 were POC/DOC/MOK, Quinlan was maybe coevring as well

No real difference in backrows etc - for example we had Ferris/Wallace/Heaslip/SOB for a small while - thats an absolute world class unit#

We definitely have more depth at wing than we have had for a long time, but as regards the 23 - and more depth at 10 certainly from EOS era, but less quality from Kidney era (at the moment)

[No23]

Have to say that no matter how you try to address the selection it is disappointingly ultra conservative!
Suitable alternatives were available and an important opportunity has been lost by JS.
I would say a Connacht team would be favorites to beat that Italian selection.

[Ruckedtobits]

A lot of nonsense on this thread about the relevance of the game and the opportunity for experimentation by the Coach.

This is a Tournament in which we have a real chance of winning. Nothing else matters. RWC 2015 is 14 /16 games away. Winning this Tournament could provide confidence and evidence of ability in winning and it would exceed the KPIs established for the new Coach. That it could also add about €2m extra to the IRFU coffers - about 30% of Connacht Budget for next year - should also not be ignored.

The Squad is growing, but the objective is totally focused on Saturday, not some notional day in the future when we are "ultimately judged".

Get real guys, winning a Championship is levels in importance above "giving new guys the experience"

[Logorrhea]

I would say a Connacht team would be favorites to beat that Italian selection.

Ah the arrogance ............. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/m ... ix-nations

I would have liked to see Jackson get a run, but if we win the championship I couldn't give a rats arse and Schmidt is trying to win the championship.

Jackson will be given the tour of Argentina as I'm sure as Johnny is due a rest. The rest of the selection is pretty solid.

[simonokeeffe]

I would say a Connacht team would be favorites to beat that Italian selection.

Ah the arrogance ............. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/m ... ix-nations

I would have liked to see Jackson get a run, but if we win the championship I couldn't give a rats arse and Schmidt is trying to win the championship.

Jackson will be given the tour of Argentina as I'm sure as Johnny is due a rest. The rest of the selection is pretty solid.

Ross, Sexton, BOD, RK the biggest candidates for a summer rest
Everyone else either missed Lions tour or a decent chunk of the season with an injury
(Lions wikipedia page has Penalty Try on player list btw )

Said this before but fixture list fell the wrong way for rotation

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Was pointing out we have a sizeable quality squad built up/being built already

Ironically most of the viable changes wouldve gone against building a squad ie recalling guys without much gametime back from injury like Bowe and Ryan
Backing guys whove come in and done well like Henderson, Moore, DK, McGrath etc is building depth

I'm disappointed there weren't more changes for this one but I agree entirely with that.

Plus when we have the second choice players running in certain positions (the flankers and the wingers) then it makes it harder to rotate elsewhere.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

A lot of nonsense on this thread about the relevance of the game and the opportunity for experimentation by the Coach.

This is a Tournament in which we have a real chance of winning. Nothing else matters. RWC 2015 is 14 /16 games away. Winning this Tournament could provide confidence and evidence of ability in winning and it would exceed the KPIs established for the new Coach. That it could also add about €2m extra to the IRFU coffers - about 30% of Connacht Budget for next year - should also not be ignored.

The Squad is growing, but the objective is totally focused on Saturday, not some notional day in the future when we are "ultimately judged".

Get real guys, winning a Championship is levels in importance above "giving new guys the experience"

That implies that we're taking a risk on certain players though. Is it really risky to play Moore instead of Ross? McGrath instead of Healy with Healy to get half an hour and then be fresher for France? Jackson to be the only change in a backline when Sexton is carrying an injury but could still sit on the bench?

I think that it's ridiculous for anyone to have any major issues with the selections thus far and anyone doing so seems to ignore the fact that we are missing certain players and also have quite a lot of young players involved already. However, I think a home game against Italy does give us an opportunity to integrate some quality young players into the team. It's not like we'd be telling the front liners to go on holidays for a week and throwing in guys who we have major doubts about. There was definitely scope for one or two more changes IMO.

[ronk]

Interesting choice in terms of the selection. I think it makes sense.

Schmidt is continuing to set his stall in terms of doing things differently. He's not giving the lads a lash for the craic. The only change was the guy who couldn't train and who's as well off getting ready for the France game.

Time will tell whether this focus and his imposing his influence on the playing panel will be productive. He hasn't made any changes for the sake of making changes. He hasn't rigidly insisted on making barely fit players pull on jerseys. He's picking the guys who are putting the team and the system before their other considerations.

This is going to be BOD's last home international and it's a key game for us in the 6N, a chance to avenge last years loss, to have a tilt at the championship. What player wouldn't want to be part of this.

[Morf]

Schmidt wants to win every game.

This is even more heightened as an international coach.

Fewer games to be judged one. More high-profile mistakes or mis-selections.

This tournament for the greatest part funds Irish rugby at all levels.

I've no doubt the blazers are happy to win games with the concession of less squad rotation.

Schmidt is doing dossiers of work-ons/KPIs on every player in the realistic scope of the national team anyway. Levels are being raised across the board.

Even if players aren't in the 23 they are becoming better players in the environment where every % improvement in KPIs is acknowledged and you know if you hit targets you'll get selected at some point.

The carrot is there for every player. Senior players in camp are raising standards going back to the provinces then on to their academies. It's trickle-down skill/mentality/technique/professionalism improvement.

[suisse]

I see 7 of the Italian 15 were born in Italy. They're a five-nation team in the six nations.

Ireland are have been looking to go a little that way as well with our "Project" players and the unseemly haste to cap Michael Bent in case the All Blacks called him up!!!

project players need to be banned.

Yep. 100%. But a lot of people never want to address the real problem with it, bypassing the important aspect of the debate. Also, just cos England have done it doesn't mean we should either.

[ronk]

I wouldn't overplay the KPI thing. Lots of coaches use some version of it. Kidney was into data and had his own metrics. Martin Johnson was very focused on it.

Schmidt does have a different mentality. He works with players to get them performing their necessary roles as well as they can. He's also working very hard to try and address long-standing bad habits in terms of inconsistency.

He likes to let teams play with their heads up, but at this point there's a dichotomy between achieving consistency and giving latitude. Making big changes to the squad would undermine the effort to be consistent. Later, when the squad is more settled, rotation becomes feasible.

The carrot is there at the moment because there's a new coach, but that's almost always the case. Over time it becomes harder as players drift into and out of form and they (and fans) start to obsess about whether the balance is correct in terms of keeping guys who are (or have been) performing versus giving guys opportunities.

NZ talk a lot about what a cap means. Players don't hold back because they know that there's another guy who's desperate to play and doesn't think the opposition aren't worth the effort. The Italy game is our chance to let our standards drop, which is why it's so important that it can't be allowed to happen.

[Morf]

Oh yeah I appreciate the data analysis isn't new.

Possibly just the obsessively meticulous vision of Schmidt that the players have bought into because he has pedigree and earned respect.

A few slight vibes out of Leinster than MOC was a bit of a breath in fresh air with regard a different approach. Sessions can stop to make a point or two over something, a quick exchange of views.

I heard something along the lines of the physical approach to gym time vs pitch time with MOC starting the season being different.

It will be a thing that some players love Schmidt, others with go along because he gets results (so far) and others just might not get along with his approach and struggle.

Time will tell if that becomes apparent. Schmidt is far too savvy to do it from his end but we've already seen Cave's murmurings.

[Golf Man]

The talk of KPIs, metrics, miticulous analysis, new approach etc is all to be taken with a pinch of slat in my opinion. The simple fact of a new coach makes a huge change in emphasis and rejuvenates a squad in itself. I hate to say it but in all liklelihood what will happen to Schmidt is probably quite similar to what happened to EOS and DK. It has started reasonably well and there is definitely scope for big improvement. That said its more likely than not some players will become a bit disillusioned with the style, with their lack of chances and the coach coming under pressure will revert even more to type, before a final fling in trying to make a raft of changes at once.

I really hope it doesn't go like that and believe that Schmidt absolutely has the capability to avoid that but its a fine balance - looking at the really successful teams more often than not its the ongoing improvement on the team, ongoing integration of players into the first team (kilkenny are a prime example of this, new zealand another, Man utd were, but look at them now). Some players will react well to coaches others won't - no other way it can go in my opnion (look at Ruddock for example - he wasn't capped at all during Schmidts reign at Leinster and played a handul of Heineken Cup games over 3 years - I hadn't written him off but it certainly looked like he had really stalled - he looks a cokpletely different animal under MOC)

Its all well and good with players being told what they have to do, but if they don't get their chances its a pointless exercise - and I mean proper chances - a summer tour with a second choice team is important but if players aren't being given the opportunity to back this up in big games, then long term the whole thing will crumble

Schmidt is continuing to set his stall in terms of doing things differently. He's not giving the lads a lash for the craic. The only change was the guy who couldn't train and who's as well off getting ready for the France game.

On what basis is Schmidt doing things differently????? We've had the gameplan and the same team for the first 4 games, the only starting changes are injury enforced (apart from Marshall getting 1 start) - this is exactly what Kidney and EOS were panned for?????? He might sell it a little bit differently (ie Kidney had his whole the lads that started deserve another shot, Schmidt has his whole we've een impressed by the other players by really impressed by the guys who have started - whatever way you package it its the same thing)

A lot of nonsense on this thread about the relevance of the game and the opportunity for experimentation by the Coach.

This is a Tournament in which we have a real chance of winning. Nothing else matters. RWC 2015 is 14 /16 games away. Winning this Tournament could provide confidence and evidence of ability in winning and it would exceed the KPIs established for the new Coach. That it could also add about €2m extra to the IRFU coffers - about 30% of Connacht Budget for next year - should also not be ignored.

Again with the KPIs (they seem to have taken over from the "he has to select him because he has a central contract" from the DK defenders - you are absolutely right in what you say that the focus should be the winning of the championship. The point is more that Schmidt has stated clearly that he wants 30 players - that to my mind should be 30 starters, not 15 starters and 15 subs - this is an opportunity to develop these players more without imo compromising the liklihoood of winning. I actually think it would add to our chances of winning the whole thing. Some players I think would improve the team and give us more of a cutting edge (bearing in mind that its likely that the championship will be decided on points) - on top of that resting guys like Ross and Sexton would keep them fresher for the much bigger challenge next week.

If you are looking at winning the championship you have to focus on next week as well - we are not going to win it unless we win there

[blockhead]

POC speaks when questioned about the lack on fellow Munster players in the squad;

"I didn't give it much thought that way but, look, Leinster have been the dominant force in Irish rugby for quite some time now," he said.

"You even look at Munster-Leinster results for the past few years and they have been the dominant force.

"They've won trophies year on year. They dominated Europe and have done very well in the Pro12 as well so I don't think we can argue with it."

Well said Paul, lets leave it there now.

[Peg Leg]

The talk of KPIs, metrics, miticulous analysis, new approach etc is all to be taken with a pinch of slat in my opinion. ....

Of Course you would, regardless of the fact that it's the players themselves saying it!

[Peg Leg]

(look at Ruddock for example - he wasn't capped at all during Schmidts reign at Leinster and played a handul of Heineken Cup games over 3 years - I hadn't written him off but it certainly looked like he had really stalled - he looks a cokpletely different animal under MOC)

Its all well and good with players being told what they have to do, but if they don't get their chances its a pointless exercise - and I mean proper chances - a summer tour with a second choice team is important but if players aren't being given the opportunity to back this up in big games, then long term the whole thing will crumble

You can not use ruddock (who played 56 times for Schmidt 10 of which were in international comps) as an example, knowing who his competition was. I also like how you attribute Ruddocks development (overnight in your eyes)to MOC. He's 23 yrs old, he was a captain for Leinster under Schmidt FFS!

[jezzer]

Ruddock was made captain by Joe when a lot of us, including me, were arguing he hadn't earned it and was a borderline selection to even be picked. Ruddock's improvement is down to his increased power. He's playing almost the sme as he always has, but he now has the physicality to back up the good intentions.

Your point is a good one though. Coaching usually conforms to a curve and only the coaches who refresh their teams constantly seem to be able to buck it. Too early to say how Joe will fare. Given he's bedding in a culture and identity for the team, its also too early to use these selections as a barometer for squads this summer and onwards.