November Internationals 2014

[Not_Today]

McCarthy ahead of Foley is some joke, in fact I thought Foley might start with POC, TOD not getting into the 23 is a surprise. Centre partnership is a concern but commendable when looking forward to the WC.

[Oldschool]

Diack isn't within an asses roar of the Irish 23, Ah You is there because Marty Moore (but I suppose Nathan White too) is injured

We are looking realistically at Strauss, White and Payne in World cup Squad.

But we have to compete, no point taking a lone nationalistic moral highground to our detriment

England will have Rokodugini, Barrit, and Vunipola facing NZ plus Brookes who played u18, 19, 20s for us and if they were fit another Vunipola, Tuilagi
France will have Spedding, Le Roux, Kockott and maybe some colonials

Its a matter for the IRB to sort out, 5 year residency would be my preference, but not a matter for us to sort out

Five years is way too long and would make the financial gamble way too high.

[All Blacks nil]

Diack isn't within an asses roar of the Irish 23, Ah You is there because Marty Moore (but I suppose Nathan White too) is injured

We are looking realistically at Strauss, White and Payne in World cup Squad.

But we have to compete, no point taking a lone nationalistic moral highground to our detriment

England will have Rokodugini, Barrit, and Vunipola facing NZ plus Brookes who played u18, 19, 20s for us and if they were fit another Vunipola, Tuilagi
France will have Spedding, Le Roux, Kockott and maybe some colonials

Its a matter for the IRB to sort out, 5 year residency would be my preference, but not a matter for us to sort out

But Ah You is there. It doesn't matter How or why he is selected.
No disrespect to the three guys mentioned as World Cup possibilities, or the other new and soon to be Irishmen, but does the national team. need them that badly?
The SOS call for Michael Bent arose because of the provinces not promoting young Irish tightheads. Munster, Leinster and Ulster were as bad as each other Since the IRFU changed their policy on the amount of NIQ players per position, all of a sudden there are homegrown international tight head contenders at 3 of the 4 provinces.

[Oldschool]

might start with POC, TOD not getting into the 23 is a surprise. Centre partnership is a concern but commendable when looking forward to the WC.[/quote]
We're talking about selection of the best available players for the Irish team not the best available Munster players.

[simonokeeffe]

Diack isn't within an asses roar of the Irish 23, Ah You is there because Marty Moore (but I suppose Nathan White too) is injured

We are looking realistically at Strauss, White and Payne in World cup Squad.

But we have to compete, no point taking a lone nationalistic moral highground to our detriment

England will have Rokodugini, Barrit, and Vunipola facing NZ plus Brookes who played u18, 19, 20s for us and if they were fit another Vunipola, Tuilagi
France will have Spedding, Le Roux, Kockott and maybe some colonials

Its a matter for the IRB to sort out, 5 year residency would be my preference, but not a matter for us to sort out

But Ah You is there. It doesn't matter How or why he is selected.
No disrespect to the three guys mentioned as World Cup possibilities, or the other new and soon to be Irishmen, but does the national team. need them that badly?
The SOS call for Michael Bent arose because of the provinces not promoting young Irish tightheads. Munster, Leinster and Ulster were as bad as each other Since the IRFU changed their policy on the amount of NIQ players per position, all of a sudden there are homegrown international tight head contenders at 3 of the 4 provinces.

the national team is to select the best players we have, we cant operate with degrees of Irishness in mind

@Oldschool: 5 year residency would end guys being signed as projects eg Payne, Roux or even thinking of it eg Stander, Aki, youd end up with guys like Diack who just signed to play for a team and eventually became qualified. Only problem would be it would favour bigger leagues mainly PRL and T14 and youd still have Vunipolas, Tuilagis, Barritt etc

[paddyor]

McCarthy ahead of Foley is some joke, in fact I thought Foley might start with POC, TOD not getting into the 23 is a surprise. Centre partnership is a concern but commendable when looking forward to the WC.

It's not a joke. It's not jokeshop(WTF does that mean; Where do sayings like that come from; How does it make sense?).
TOD will always be 5 inches shorter and a few kilos lighter than Ruddock. If POM was out of the game who do you think would be the backrow lineout option Schmidt would choose? Against a pack as big as the Boks it really isn't a surprise that he might pick the big guy. And FYI outside of Munster no one thinks TOD has been setting the world alight. Ruddock has been quiet by his usual standards in the loose but his season hasn't been a write off by any standard. Not that many people outside of Munster will be surprised that JS chose the bigger backrow forward for the bench against SA!

Munster are 2/3 points ahead of us in the P12 and also(like us) top of their group. They've won one more match than us(the aviva) so far. They really aren't playing so much better than us at the moment. Macarthy has done for us what he was brought here to do. Big gainline hits, power in the scrum & maul and rucking. He hasn't had the season that Foley has but he still hasn't been terrible or ineffective. He was brilliant off the bench against Castres. I thought he did well in the Connacht game despite the special attention he got from them.

Foley isn't the same player either IMO, more a work horse. Not saying I wouldn't pick or consider him just that he brings different qualities. You could make a case for him over MacCarthy instead of dismissing the latter. There isn't a whole lot of daylight between them.

I can't deny that our(leinsters) pack hasn't been as cohesive in the set-piece or at the break down, but that's not to say that players haven't individually performed on the day(E.G. Ruddock, MacCarthy) or done as they're told. But I don't think it's so surprising that they get the nod over Munster players.

[artaneboy]

Is anyone else uncomfortable with the fact that this Irish MD23 features 3 naturalised Irishmen, and that Ireland could also include Diack, Nathan White and a plethora of project players in the not too distant future.
A bit like the exile dominated backline of the 90's where at one stage only one Irish back was Irishborn, is Irish rugby that desperate?

I agree to some extent as I'm not a fan of the 3 year rule esp. for tier 1 nations. There are good cases for it. Henry Speight has a bit of a mad story and it wouldn't be fair to the likes of him to deny him the chance of representing his adopted country. There's also the case of Ruaidhri O'Connor which was bizarre.

It's a bit hypotethical though isn't it. "We could have a team of x many naturalized irish". We don't and IMO we never will have a team dominated by "imports". Some of the projects though they give us depth just aren't that good. If they contribute to the game and the communities they live in then I'm happy enough with them picking up a few Irish caps.

I assume what you are referring to was the grab a granny era of which I know little. I don't have much of a problem with the Granny rule itself but Michael bent being parachuted in was a bit of a farce and well it showed up how desperate we were for a half decent tighthead.......That was arguably worse than any of the guys coming over here for 3 years in the hope of playing for Ireland

Bottom line was tho we were desperate and I hate to say it but we had gone past even the "There's nobody else" point of desperation.
Michael Bent was legitimately qualified so the only issue was that he displaced an Irish based player who patently wasn't up to it at the time and possibly still isn't. Bent is probably the next best TH available right now although it's certainly a debatable point.

Agree. We are a long way behind England and the SH giants when it comes to this selection gambit anyway.

And while we are in it, this constant tut-tuting repetition of "Bent coming off a plane and straight on to the pitch..." as some sort of shameful fiasco is dreary stuff. It hasn't even the usual '20-20 hindsight' merit of being accurate. Bent played really well and more than justified his selection that day.

That he has taken a while to become truly consistent doesn't devalue that decision to invite him to become IQ. Bent is now an excellent option for Leinster on both side of the scrum now- and I predict he'll become a very reliable international for us too.

The investment is paying off. No young props were hurt in this production. Jaysus, we gave enough chances to Buckley and company to step up....

[Vamos los azules]

Diack isn't within an asses roar of the Irish 23, Ah You is there because Marty Moore (but I suppose Nathan White too) is injured

We are looking realistically at Strauss, White and Payne in World cup Squad.

But we have to compete, no point taking a lone nationalistic moral highground to our detriment

England will have Rokodugini, Barrit, and Vunipola facing NZ plus Brookes who played u18, 19, 20s for us and if they were fit another Vunipola, Tuilagi
France will have Spedding, Le Roux, Kockott and maybe some colonials

Its a matter for the IRB to sort out, 5 year residency would be my preference, but not a matter for us to sort out

But Ah You is there. It doesn't matter How or why he is selected.
No disrespect to the three guys mentioned as World Cup possibilities, or the other new and soon to be Irishmen, but does the national team. need them that badly?
The SOS call for Michael Bent arose because of the provinces not promoting young Irish tightheads. Munster, Leinster and Ulster were as bad as each other Since the IRFU changed their policy on the amount of NIQ players per position, all of a sudden there are homegrown international tight head contenders at 3 of the 4 provinces.

the national team is to select the best players we have, we cant operate with degrees of Irishness in mind

@Oldschool: 5 year residency would end guys being signed as projects eg Payne, Roux or even thinking of it eg Stander, Aki, youd end up with guys like Diack who just signed to play for a team and eventually became qualified. Only problem would be it would favour bigger leagues mainly PRL and T14 and youd still have Vunipolas, Tuilagis, Barritt etc

Barritt has two English parents and qualifies through them, not residency. He was known as the skinny English kid growing up in SA. Otherwise carry on.

[Dave Cahill]

There was no 'SOS call' for Michael Bent. He was an Irish Qualified NZer whose age and experience profile filled a gap in the Leinster squad who was coming over here on a development contract because Feek reckoned had potential as prop who could play both sides. When his ITM season finished he arrived in Leinster.


Then somebody panicked.

[jezzer]

Fascinating lineup. You certainly couldn't call it biased towards Leinster.

Jones, Zebo, Ruddock, Ah You and McCarthy are obviously the borderline calls. Everyone else more or less picks themselves.

I think it's great to see Zebo get a run as a starter and I hope his workrate is enough to buy him a few caps to establish his level. Neither Jones nor Ruddock inspire me much, but I guess it's a case of what's available. I would probably have picked Gilroy, to see if he could contribute as an impact sub and because we have FB cover already. Between Ruddock, Ryan, Diack and TOD, it's pretty close for matchday impact. We're missing a lot of jackaling ability from BOD, Darce, Best and Seanie - who of those 4 would contest the breakdown best? Not Ruddock anyway, though he's a high workrate tackle machine.

McCarthy is a funny one. Form-wise, I wouldn't really consider him. But he's maybe the player who ups his game the most for big matches of anyone in Ireland. He can be very ordinary against ordinary opposition, but as soon as you get him in a high-stakes game, he's like a different player. For that reason, he's worth the slot, imo.

[Munsterboy]

Fascinating lineup. You certainly couldn't call it biased towards Leinster.

Jones, Zebo, Ruddock, Ah You and McCarthy are obviously the borderline calls. Everyone else more or less picks themselves.

I think it's great to see Zebo get a run as a starter and I hope his workrate is enough to buy him a few caps to establish his level. Neither Jones nor Ruddock inspire me much, but I guess it's a case of what's available. I would probably have picked Gilroy, to see if he could contribute as an impact sub and because we have FB cover already. Between Ruddock, Ryan, Diack and TOD, it's pretty close for matchday impact. We're missing a lot of jackaling ability from BOD, Darce, Best and Seanie - who of those 4 would contest the breakdown best? Not Ruddock anyway, though he's a high workrate tackle machine.

McCarthy is a funny one. Form-wise, I wouldn't really consider him. But he's maybe the player who ups his game the most for big matches of anyone in Ireland. He can be very ordinary against ordinary opposition, but as soon as you get him in a high-stakes game, he's like a different player. For that reason, he's worth the slot, imo.

Five of the pack that got their arses handed to them by Munster, plus another few on the bench. Strauss has hardly played in God knows how long and McCarthy is in very poor form. Very Leinster biased in my view. Joe goes with the lads he knows, regardless of how mediocre.

[OTT]

Five of the pack that got their arses handed to them by Munster, plus another few on the bench. Strauss has hardly played in God knows how long and McCarthy is in very poor form. Very Leinster biased in my view. Joe goes with the lads he knows, regardless of how mediocre.

So you would have had

Killer
Herring
Archer/Ah You
Foley
Copeland?

Jaysus

[The Anathemata]

Fascinating lineup. You certainly couldn't call it biased towards Leinster.

Jones, Zebo, Ruddock, Ah You and McCarthy are obviously the borderline calls. Everyone else more or less picks themselves.

I think it's great to see Zebo get a run as a starter and I hope his workrate is enough to buy him a few caps to establish his level. Neither Jones nor Ruddock inspire me much, but I guess it's a case of what's available. I would probably have picked Gilroy, to see if he could contribute as an impact sub and because we have FB cover already. Between Ruddock, Ryan, Diack and TOD, it's pretty close for matchday impact. We're missing a lot of jackaling ability from BOD, Darce, Best and Seanie - who of those 4 would contest the breakdown best? Not Ruddock anyway, though he's a high workrate tackle machine.

McCarthy is a funny one. Form-wise, I wouldn't really consider him. But he's maybe the player who ups his game the most for big matches of anyone in Ireland. He can be very ordinary against ordinary opposition, but as soon as you get him in a high-stakes game, he's like a different player. For that reason, he's worth the slot, imo.

Agree with pretty much all of that. MM, RR and Jones are just not frontline international standard. Zebo definitely has ability in spades, whatever about the other issues from last year (re: weight and souvlaki), his defence and workrate have improved in the three big Munster games that I've seen this season.
Joe really doesn't seem to rate him though. Damned him with faint praise at the press conference yesterday, almost forgot to mention him when discussing the back line.

[blockhead]

Fascinating lineup. You certainly couldn't call it biased towards Leinster.

Jones, Zebo, Ruddock, Ah You and McCarthy are obviously the borderline calls. Everyone else more or less picks themselves.

I think it's great to see Zebo get a run as a starter and I hope his workrate is enough to buy him a few caps to establish his level. Neither Jones nor Ruddock inspire me much, but I guess it's a case of what's available. I would probably have picked Gilroy, to see if he could contribute as an impact sub and because we have FB cover already. Between Ruddock, Ryan, Diack and TOD, it's pretty close for matchday impact. We're missing a lot of jackaling ability from BOD, Darce, Best and Seanie - who of those 4 would contest the breakdown best? Not Ruddock anyway, though he's a high workrate tackle machine.

McCarthy is a funny one. Form-wise, I wouldn't really consider him. But he's maybe the player who ups his game the most for big matches of anyone in Ireland. He can be very ordinary against ordinary opposition, but as soon as you get him in a high-stakes game, he's like a different player. For that reason, he's worth the slot, imo.

Five of the pack that got their arses handed to them by Munster, plus another few on the bench. Strauss has hardly played in God knows how long and McCarthy is in very poor form. Very Leinster biased in my view. Joe goes with the lads he knows, regardless of how mediocre.

Christ, what are you gonna post when SOB,Luke,Dave,Marty,Fergus, Gordon and Cian are back in contention for the Irish team. Add in Andrew,Rory, Hendo, Touhy and Marshall and Blue Joe will be able to ignore Munster entirely.

[paddyor]

Five of the pack that got their arses handed to them by Munster, plus another few on the bench. Strauss has hardly played in God knows how long and McCarthy is in very poor form. Very Leinster biased in my view. Joe goes with the lads he knows, regardless of how mediocre.

Yes because one off games like the interpros should be the primary basis for picking the team.

[jezzer]

Fascinating lineup. You certainly couldn't call it biased towards Leinster.

Jones, Zebo, Ruddock, Ah You and McCarthy are obviously the borderline calls. Everyone else more or less picks themselves.

I think it's great to see Zebo get a run as a starter and I hope his workrate is enough to buy him a few caps to establish his level. Neither Jones nor Ruddock inspire me much, but I guess it's a case of what's available. I would probably have picked Gilroy, to see if he could contribute as an impact sub and because we have FB cover already. Between Ruddock, Ryan, Diack and TOD, it's pretty close for matchday impact. We're missing a lot of jackaling ability from BOD, Darce, Best and Seanie - who of those 4 would contest the breakdown best? Not Ruddock anyway, though he's a high workrate tackle machine.

McCarthy is a funny one. Form-wise, I wouldn't really consider him. But he's maybe the player who ups his game the most for big matches of anyone in Ireland. He can be very ordinary against ordinary opposition, but as soon as you get him in a high-stakes game, he's like a different player. For that reason, he's worth the slot, imo.

Five of the pack that got their arses handed to them by Munster, plus another few on the bench. Strauss has hardly played in God knows how long and McCarthy is in very poor form. Very Leinster biased in my view. Joe goes with the lads he knows, regardless of how mediocre.

Strauss is arguably the best hooker in Ireland - no disrespect to our Rory. He didn't look short of sharpness in the last game. I don't think there's a realistic alternative anywhere near him. I've already agreed with you about McCarthy and form. I'd have zero loyalty towards him over someone else, just because he's a Leinster player. He's an annoying player for Leinster because he shows in big games that he's capable of a lot more than he often delivers in blue. I'd put money on it that - if he gets much gametime - he'll be one of the better performing subs. Then he'll go back to being decent but nothing special for Leinster.

Starting pack, hmmm. If Healy was fit, McGrath wouldn't start. If Best was fit, Cronin wouldn't start. If we had a better TH in Ireland, Ross wouldn't start. But with those guys unavailable, I struggle to believe that the guys picked aren't the natural next best at the position. Toner? He was maybe Ireland's most consistent player in the 6N. But if there was genuinely a contender for his spot I'd like to hear it. You couldn't possibly sell me Copeland over Heaslip, so please don't try.

If there was one starting slot where I had to favour a Munsterman over anyone else, I'd maybe go Killer. That's it.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I know I said I'd have preferred Gilroy to Jones, but actually I'd have gone for Darce. Surely the preparation argument doesn't apply as much to the subs, especially one so experienced, and if specialist wing cover isn't deemed essential then I think it makes more sense. The attrition in midfield and the new and uncertain combo means I'd like to be able to call on Darce. Think it allows for more tactical flexibility too without having too much disruption given that he could play 12 or 13.

Think I'd have started Strauss too. I know he hasn't played much and that Cronin is needed as a ball carrier, but I don't think Cronin's form has been good enough in all aspects to outweighs their respective impacts off the bench.

[blaker]

Irish games are becoming a focking drag. The interprovincal absolute horsesh!t arguements about minor judgement calls either way on the bench - Cjrist have we all nothing better to do.

Does anybody else share the experience of watching Irish matches and, in real time, sub conciously, identifying the instances that opposition (jeez, not opposition, other Irish fans!!!) fans will be jumping all over for the forthcoming week? A Kearney missed tackle, an Archer folding, Sexton missing a kick - its poisonous

[nc6000]

Irish games are becoming a focking drag. The interprovincal absolute horsesh!t arguements about minor judgement calls either way on the bench - Cjrist have we all nothing better to do.

Does anybody else share the experience of watching Irish matches and, in real time, sub conciously, identifying the instances that opposition (jeez, not opposition, other Irish fans!!!) fans will be jumping all over for the forthcoming week? A Kearney missed tackle, an Archer folding, Sexton missing a kick - its poisonous

Yep but it is actually worse on the other forums like boards.ie etc.

[blaker]

Irish games are becoming a focking drag. The interprovincal absolute horsesh!t arguements about minor judgement calls either way on the bench - Cjrist have we all nothing better to do.

Does anybody else share the experience of watching Irish matches and, in real time, sub conciously, identifying the instances that opposition (jeez, not opposition, other Irish fans!!!) fans will be jumping all over for the forthcoming week? A Kearney missed tackle, an Archer folding, Sexton missing a kick - its poisonous

Yep but it is actually worse on the other forums like boards.ie etc.

I wasn't having a go at any one board or set of supporters in particular. And I fully get that in a nominally 50/50 debate a supporter will always back his own out of a combo of loyalty and familiarity, no problem. But some of the stuff goes way beyond that. Its just so dull. Reasoned technical debates over the relative merits of, say, Casey v Strauss would be very entertaining. Debating JOe's view, horses for courses, strengths and weaknesses etc. BUt it all just ends up at Joe hates Munster, Munster are sh!te anyway within 3 posts.