Scrap the Lions?

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hugonaut
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by hugonaut »

I think it's pretty much a complete red herring of an argument. I'm not sure what quantifiable impact a tour 26-27 months before a tournament can have.

The team the Lions played [Australia] got to the final. The other northern hemisphere heavyweight [France], who had absolutely nothing to do with the tour, had their worst world cup ever.

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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

I don't know if I could completely agree with this red herring talk.

To take your example of the 2013 tour, the lions had all completed a full domestic and international season, Australia competed before the rugby championship.
Irish touring players seriously injured on that tour.
Cian Healy
POC
Tommy Bowe

Two of those three players have arguably not recovered the form they showed before that tour.

LIONS match schedule ran from 1st June to 6th July
Aus match schedule ran from 22nd June to 6th July

In fact, a far larger red herring might to compare France's WC performance to the rest of the home nations.
1st England did not qualify from their group, this would count as their worst WC also.
2nd France Having a bad WC had zero to do with summer touring.
in fact the argument to be made is that the two teams whose unions have most control of their pro teams, and have a more cohesive season fared best in this WC. The two 'biggest teams' to have their worst ever WC ever are the two teams whose unions have least control over player resources and league fixtures.

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Donny B.
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Donny B. »

Dave Cahill wrote:
Donny B. wrote:
As for the first point, it's currently a massive cash cow only for the unions hosting it,

I dunno, twenty odd million of the queens pounds split four ways last time around - thats a spicy meatball
According to the piece, that was the cost but the actual profit was 8.5 million which split four ways is hardly that spicy a meatball

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Dave Cahill
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Dave Cahill »

Donny B. wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
Donny B. wrote:
As for the first point, it's currently a massive cash cow only for the unions hosting it,

I dunno, twenty odd million of the queens pounds split four ways last time around - thats a spicy meatball
According to the piece, that was the cost but the actual profit was 8.5 million which split four ways is hardly that spicy a meatball
8.5 plus the 15 mill from the HSBC game is over 23 million. But even if its only 5c split four ways, its more profitable than a World Cup
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Donny B.
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Donny B. »

Dave Cahill wrote:
According to the piece, that was the cost but the actual profit was 8.5 million which split four ways is hardly that spicy a meatball
8.5 plus the 15 mill from the HSBC game is over 23 million. But even if its only 5c split four ways, its more profitable than a World Cup[/quote]

That wasn't part of the profit, that was just to cover the costs of the actual tour.

"In order to cover the cost of almost €20 million for the tour to Australia, the Lions arranged a stopover en route to Australia in Hong Kong and a game against the Barbarians which raised the Lions an estimated €15 million."

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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Dave Cahill »

Fair enough, read it wrong. But its still far more profitable than a World Cup - lets get rid of that.

Also Gerry forgot to mention how France won all those World Cups due to them not being part of the Lions.
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nc6000
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by nc6000 »

hugonaut wrote:I think it's pretty much a complete red herring of an argument. I'm not sure what quantifiable impact a tour 26-27 months before a tournament can have.

The team the Lions played [Australia] got to the final. The other northern hemisphere heavyweight [France], who had absolutely nothing to do with the tour, had their worst world cup ever.
But with the last tour being the exception don't France usually win the 6 Nations that follows a Lions tour?

I used to like it up until 2005 when Woodward basically picked everyone and made a balls of it. 2009 was OK but only the tests were worth watching. The other games were pretty bad with very poor attendances and against very weak teams. In 2013 they just about beat a woeful Australia team and the call-ups for Shane Williams and Christian Wade just to cover a midweek game was ridiculous not to mention the dropping of BOD and Heaslip and SOB not selected for the first two tests. It was basically Gatland picking his Welsh team with a few exceptions.

I think on the 2017 tour they could be lucky to win more than one game and will probably lose the 3 tests.

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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by FLIP »

It's take something special to interest me next time after Gatlands poison.
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by simonokeeffe »

if they want to reinvigorate Lions they should include a tour to Argentina in next 12/16 year deal

Argies would go mad for it, do a lot for game in South America, dirt trackers play Uruguay etc
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Dave Cahill
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Dave Cahill »

simonokeeffe wrote:if they want to reinvigorate Lions they should include a tour to Argentina in next 12/16 year deal

Argies would go mad for it, do a lot for game in South America, dirt trackers play Uruguay etc

It would be too early to include Argentina just yet. Lets see how they deal with professionalism domestically first
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by simonokeeffe »

Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:if they want to reinvigorate Lions they should include a tour to Argentina in next 12/16 year deal

Argies would go mad for it, do a lot for game in South America, dirt trackers play Uruguay etc

It would be too early to include Argentina just yet. Lets see how they deal with professionalism domestically first
theyve 15 years to deal with it
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Dave Cahill »

simonokeeffe wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:if they want to reinvigorate Lions they should include a tour to Argentina in next 12/16 year deal

Argies would go mad for it, do a lot for game in South America, dirt trackers play Uruguay etc

It would be too early to include Argentina just yet. Lets see how they deal with professionalism domestically first
theyve 15 years to deal with it
Their first ever professional side doesn't take the field until next year - and at international level their administration has been, to be extremely charitable, a f%~king shambles. When the UAR proves thats its more like the governing body of a professional sport and less like the commishee of a junior b gaelic football club then putting Argentina back on the Lions tour schedule can be discussed.
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by simonokeeffe »

30 years then?
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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

Dave Cahill wrote: Their first ever professional side doesn't take the field until next year - and at international level their administration has been, to be extremely charitable, a f%~king shambles. When the UAR proves thats its more like the governing body of a professional sport and less like the commishee of a junior b gaelic football club then putting Argentina back on the Lions tour schedule can be discussed.
Say what you want about the bogballers Dave, they get the kids out on the park.

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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Peg Leg »

simonokeeffe wrote:if they want to reinvigorate Lions they should include a tour to Argentina in next 12/16 year deal

Argies would go mad for it, do a lot for game in South America, dirt trackers play Uruguay etc
Fock that, lions should base themselves in Japan every year, SANZAR can come up to play there.
3 Warm ups V the Baba's.....€45m
2 V Japan......................€30m
3 V SANZAR team.............€23m
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simonokeeffe
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by simonokeeffe »

Peg Leg wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:if they want to reinvigorate Lions they should include a tour to Argentina in next 12/16 year deal

Argies would go mad for it, do a lot for game in South America, dirt trackers play Uruguay etc
Fock that, lions should base themselves in Japan every year, SANZAR can come up to play there.
3 Warm ups V the Baba's.....€45m
2 V Japan......................€30m
3 V SANZAR team.............€23m
sorry I think you're looking for the Saracens forum
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BlueBlue
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by BlueBlue »

Looking forward to Lions in 2017 already.
drive for 5
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Oldschool
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by Oldschool »

The Lions Tours are likely to be considerably more profitable for the Lions in the future.
It's also likely some third party will try to muscle in on the remuneration and no doubt at some point try to dictate terms.
As a certain historical figure would say fail to prepare and prepare to fail.
The four unions should change the representation rules so that each union provides the same number of players to the tour, (say 10 players each) no wild cards, no nothing.
There should be only four tests with only two warm up games so as to limit the duration of the tour.
The Lions coach should not be one of the "sitting" home nations coaches.
After the first two tests, the coaches teams should change over, just to make it more interesting.
This changes would protect us in particular from a raid on the profits of the tour by some unscrupulous third party.
It would also leave the individual unions in a position whereby they could conduct separate tours with relatively strong squads during or before the Lions tour.
Surely a win win for all concerned.
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nc6000
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by nc6000 »

Joe won't be coaching them anyhow as apparently his IRFU contract doesn't allow him take up the role.......

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/s ... 01286.html

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simonokeeffe
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Re: Scrap the Lions?

Post by simonokeeffe »

nc6000 wrote:Joe won't be coaching them anyhow as apparently his IRFU contract doesn't allow him take up the role.......

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/s ... 01286.html
finally the IRFU get a contract right
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