Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

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blockhead
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Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by blockhead »

My memory only goes back as far as the likes of Geoghegan and Ringland. Since then we've had Hickie, Earls, Bowe and others. But do any of these compare to Jacob Stockdale? His stats are off the charts for club an country. It dosen't matter who he's up against or where on the pitch he gets the ball, it's always on with this lad.
So, is he the best we've ever had?
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by Oldschool »

blockhead wrote:My memory only goes back as far as the likes of Geoghegan and Ringland. Since then we've had Hickie, Earls, Bowe and others. But do any of these compare to Jacob Stockdale? His stats are off the charts for club an country. It dosen't matter who he's up against or where on the pitch he gets the ball, it's always on with this lad.
So, is he the best we've ever had?
A good question.
Current answer would be along the lines of potentially yes.
I didn't see him play but Tony O'Reilly (never saw him play) seems to have been the same style of winger and was apparently unreal. Still holds or once held the record for most tries scored on a lion's tour (late 1850s).
I did see him play against England after he'd retired.
Loads of funny stories about that one, a real ad for amateurism.
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by johng »

Oldschool wrote: I didn't see him play but Tony O'Reilly (never saw him play) (late 1850s).
I did see him play against England
Should we call round OS's house and make sure he's ok?

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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by wixfjord »

He's a ridiculous talent alright. Hard to measure if he's our best ever. Bowe was probably a more rounded player for me and during his peak period was almost unplayable. Stockdale probably a better finisher but slightly worse in other parts of the game.

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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by backrower8 »

After just 14 caps, it is far too early to say on any front - attack or defence. The case for attack is easier to make with his stagerring strke rate of 86%, but it's too early to put him over the entire careers of significant others who had to work off much more meagre rations for a lot longer. He is playing on a team that has won 93% of his caps...partly due to him.

He has hardly had to defend...but when he has had to there have been plenty of heart-in-mouth moments. His defence is still a significant work-in-progress.

What I feel surest of is that he is making the very most of the attacking opportunities that come from playing on what is definitely Ireland's best ever team.

But Tony O'Reilly and Tommy Bowe are our best ever wingers as double-Test Lions.

O'Reilly only scored 4 tries for Ireland in 29 caps, a weak 14% strike rate, that was also a measure of the Irish team's abilities, which won 36% of the games he played. Like Stockdale, when he was on a strong team like the Lions, he scored 38 tries in 38 games on 2 tours - a 100% strike rate when the Lions won just 50% of their games! 16 tries in 15 games aged 19 in South Africa in 1955 and 22 tries from 23 games against New Zeland and Australia in 1959 at the ripe old age of 23. 6 tries in 10 Lions Tests. A 60% strike rate in Lions Tests is phenomenal

O'Reilly's Lions Test strike rate is matched by Bowe's with 3 tries from 5 tests. His Irish strike rate of 43% (30 tries in 69 caps) reflects a better, but still not stellar era for the national side with a win ratio of 56%.

Significant others that Stockdale (12 tries in 14 caps; an 86% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio is 93%) has yet to overtake in my view are:

Hickie (29 tries in 62 Ireland caps; a 47% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 64%; Lion);
Horgan (21 tries in 65 caps; a 32% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 62%; Test Lion);
Geoghegan (11 tries in 37 caps; a 30% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 35%)
Earls (27 tries in 72 caps; a 38% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 62%; Lion)
Ringland (9 tries in 34 caps; 26% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 42%; Test Lion)
Keith Crossan (12 tries in 41 caps; 29% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 42%)

If he keeps going at a decent rate he will be challenging Hickie & Horgan in a few years and over time has the potential to move into Bowe & O'Reilly territory.

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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by blockhead »

backrower8 wrote:After just 14 caps, it is far too early to say on any front - attack or defence. The case for attack is easier to make with his stagerring strke rate of 86%, but it's too early to put him over the entire careers of significant others who had to work off much more meagre rations for a lot longer. He is playing on a team that has won 93% of his caps...partly due to him.

He has hardly had to defend...but when he has had to there have been plenty of heart-in-mouth moments. His defence is still a significant work-in-progress.

What I feel surest of is that he is making the very most of the attacking opportunities that come from playing on what is definitely Ireland's best ever team.

But Tony O'Reilly and Tommy Bowe are our best ever wingers as double-Test Lions.

O'Reilly only scored 4 tries for Ireland in 29 caps, a weak 14% strike rate, that was also a measure of the Irish team's abilities, which won 36% of the games he played. Like Stockdale, when he was on a strong team like the Lions, he scored 38 tries in 38 games on 2 tours - a 100% strike rate when the Lions won just 50% of their games! 16 tries in 15 games aged 19 in South Africa in 1955 and 22 tries from 23 games against New Zeland and Australia in 1959 at the ripe old age of 23. 6 tries in 10 Lions Tests. A 60% strike rate in Lions Tests is phenomenal

O'Reilly's Lions Test strike rate is matched by Bowe's with 3 tries from 5 tests. His Irish strike rate of 43% (30 tries in 69 caps) reflects a better, but still not stellar era for the national side with a win ratio of 56%.

Significant others that Stockdale (12 tries in 14 caps; an 86% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio is 93%) has yet to overtake in my view are:

Hickie (29 tries in 62 Ireland caps; a 47% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 64%; Lion);
Horgan (21 tries in 65 caps; a 32% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 62%; Test Lion);
Geoghegan (11 tries in 37 caps; a 30% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 35%)
Earls (27 tries in 72 caps; a 38% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 62%; Lion)
Ringland (9 tries in 34 caps; 26% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 42%; Test Lion)
Keith Crossan (12 tries in 41 caps; 29% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 42%)

If he keeps going at a decent rate he will be challenging Hickie & Horgan in a few years and over time has the potential to move into Bowe & O'Reilly territory.
Some amount of data in that post. :happy clapper:
Oldschool wrote:
blockhead wrote:My memory only goes back as far as the likes of Geoghegan and Ringland. Since then we've had Hickie, Earls, Bowe and others. But do any of these compare to Jacob Stockdale? His stats are off the charts for club an country. It dosen't matter who he's up against or where on the pitch he gets the ball, it's always on with this lad.
So, is he the best we've ever had?
A good question.
Current answer would be along the lines of potentially yes.
I didn't see him play but Tony O'Reilly (never saw him play) seems to have been the same style of winger and was apparently unreal. Still holds or once held the record for most tries scored on a lion's tour (late 1850s).
I did see him play against England after he'd retired.
Loads of funny stories about that one, a real ad for amateurism.
Just how old is Oldschool?
He must be one of the Dúnedain, blessed with long life.
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And gambling's for fools,
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Lar
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by Lar »

Albeit his memory does appear to be catching up with him with the passing years:
Oldschool wrote:I didn't see him play but Tony O'Reilly (never saw him play) seems to have been the same style of winger and was apparently unreal. Still holds or once held the record for most tries scored on a lion's tour (late 1850s).
I did see him play against England after he'd retired.
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by Oldschool »

johng wrote:
Oldschool wrote: I didn't see him play but Tony O'Reilly (never saw him play) (late 1850s).
I did see him play against England
Should we call round OS's house and make sure he's ok?
I'm fine but thanks for the kind thought.
I should have said I saw him appear against England, play would fail the trades descriptions act, not his fault btw.
Late 1950s of course.
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by Oldschool »

blockhead wrote:
backrower8 wrote:After just 14 caps, it is far too early to say on any front - attack or defence. The case for attack is easier to make with his stagerring strke rate of 86%, but it's too early to put him over the entire careers of significant others who had to work off much more meagre rations for a lot longer. He is playing on a team that has won 93% of his caps...partly due to him.

He has hardly had to defend...but when he has had to there have been plenty of heart-in-mouth moments. His defence is still a significant work-in-progress.

What I feel surest of is that he is making the very most of the attacking opportunities that come from playing on what is definitely Ireland's best ever team.

But Tony O'Reilly and Tommy Bowe are our best ever wingers as double-Test Lions.

O'Reilly only scored 4 tries for Ireland in 29 caps, a weak 14% strike rate, that was also a measure of the Irish team's abilities, which won 36% of the games he played. Like Stockdale, when he was on a strong team like the Lions, he scored 38 tries in 38 games on 2 tours - a 100% strike rate when the Lions won just 50% of their games! 16 tries in 15 games aged 19 in South Africa in 1955 and 22 tries from 23 games against New Zeland and Australia in 1959 at the ripe old age of 23. 6 tries in 10 Lions Tests. A 60% strike rate in Lions Tests is phenomenal

O'Reilly's Lions Test strike rate is matched by Bowe's with 3 tries from 5 tests. His Irish strike rate of 43% (30 tries in 69 caps) reflects a better, but still not stellar era for the national side with a win ratio of 56%.

Significant others that Stockdale (12 tries in 14 caps; an 86% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio is 93%) has yet to overtake in my view are:

Hickie (29 tries in 62 Ireland caps; a 47% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 64%; Lion);
Horgan (21 tries in 65 caps; a 32% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 62%; Test Lion);
Geoghegan (11 tries in 37 caps; a 30% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 35%)
Earls (27 tries in 72 caps; a 38% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 62%; Lion)
Ringland (9 tries in 34 caps; 26% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 42%; Test Lion)
Keith Crossan (12 tries in 41 caps; 29% strike rate when Ireland's win ratio was 42%)

If he keeps going at a decent rate he will be challenging Hickie & Horgan in a few years and over time has the potential to move into Bowe & O'Reilly territory.
Some amount of data in that post. :happy clapper:
Oldschool wrote:
blockhead wrote:My memory only goes back as far as the likes of Geoghegan and Ringland. Since then we've had Hickie, Earls, Bowe and others. But do any of these compare to Jacob Stockdale? His stats are off the charts for club an country. It dosen't matter who he's up against or where on the pitch he gets the ball, it's always on with this lad.
So, is he the best we've ever had?
A good question.
Current answer would be along the lines of potentially yes.
I didn't see him play but Tony O'Reilly (never saw him play) seems to have been the same style of winger and was apparently unreal. Still holds or once held the record for most tries scored on a lion's tour (late 1850s).
I did see him play against England after he'd retired.
Loads of funny stories about that one, a real ad for amateurism.
Just how old is Oldschool?
He must be one of the Dúnedain, blessed with long life.
Great info and young enough not to see Tony O'Reilly play when he was in his pomp.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by neiliog93 »

Having spoken to a few people who saw O'Reilly play in the flesh, apparently he wasn't a good defender at all.
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by enby »

Tom Grace and Alan Duggan were excellent wings. They both were great finishers and scored some crucial tries for Ireland. Grace scored a shed load of non-test tries on the 1974 Lions tour when two of the best wings in the history of the game, Gerald Davies and JJ Williams, played in the tests. Duggan was in and out of the Irish team over a period of 10 years but he had a decent strike rate at a time when tries were less common than today.

Geoghegan was the business and would have been a superstar in the professional era.

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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by Peg Leg »

I really hope himself or Lowe get a crack on the opposite wing. Can you imagine both of those on the one pitch?
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by artaneboy »

enby wrote:Tom Grace and Alan Duggan were excellent wings. They both were great finishers and scored some crucial tries for Ireland. Grace scored a shed load of non-test tries on the 1974 Lions tour when two of the best wings in the history of the game, Gerald Davies and JJ Williams, played in the tests. Duggan was in and out of the Irish team over a period of 10 years but he had a decent strike rate at a time when tries were less common than today.

Geoghegan was the business and would have been a superstar in the professional era.
Alan Duggan was indeed an excellent winger. At a time when Irish wingers (regretfully- in particular) got about a half dozen good passes a season- forget about try-scoring chances, he had more than a good record. He was my first rugby hero.


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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by Flash Gordon »

Hickie or Geoghegan for me. Geoghegan was a shining light in probably the worst Ireland team in living memory. He was disgracefully not selected for the 93 Lions with Ian Hunter being picked in his place....Who????! Known as bambi on benzadrine, Geoghegan was so good that a place was reserved for him on the 97 Lions even though he hadn''t played for a year and despite playing in that terrible Ireland team that wouldn't have been adept at getting the ball to the wing!

Hickie was probably the last Irish winger to have blind pace and was defensively excellent.

Can definitely see Stockdale being a candidate going forward, he has been superb but he needs to do what he's been doing for seasons.
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by rooster »

Pushing for that status at present but will have to keep improving on defence, he now has a lad here to push him as well which is good, the young lad Robert Balacombe looks like he could be snapping at his heels though perhaps he has not been analysed yet by oppositions which is aiding him, first match he was caught in defence, then he was too eager and got carded and banned but each time he has worked rapidly on his failings and improved which is good for a guy who was playing junior rugby. He has the talent and speed as well and I won't be surprised if they are both Irish wings in a year or two.
Anyway Stockdale will score a few in the 6 Nations and as a dangerman to watch ties up opposition resources as you never know if he is going for a ball in hand run or doing a chip and chase

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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by RoboProp »

neiliog93 wrote:Having spoken to a few people who saw O'Reilly play in the flesh, apparently he wasn't a good defender at all.
He's certainly a Has Bean now, if he were overtaken on the wing he'd never Ketchup

Apologies, I went through 57 varieties of those puns in my head
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by fourthirtythree »

You should have canned those half baked puns robo.
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

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fourthirtythree wrote:You should have canned those half baked puns robo.
Sorry 433 that they didn't cut the mustard
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by Oldschool »

RoboProp wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:Having spoken to a few people who saw O'Reilly play in the flesh, apparently he wasn't a good defender at all.
He's certainly a Has Bean now, if he were overtaken on the wing he'd never Ketchup

Apologies, I went through 57 varieties of those puns in my head
It was beinz and not just any ketchup, Heinz.
It was the "Z" that put the Zip into Sir Anthony.
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Re: Is Stockdale already Irelands best ever winger?

Post by blockhead »

Oldschool wrote:
RoboProp wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:Having spoken to a few people who saw O'Reilly play in the flesh, apparently he wasn't a good defender at all.
He's certainly a Has Bean now, if he were overtaken on the wing he'd never Ketchup

Apologies, I went through 57 varieties of those puns in my head
It was beinz and not just any ketchup, Heinz.
It was the "Z" that put the Zip into Sir Anthony.
Oldschool, that mayo may not be your worst post yet.
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And gambling's for fools,
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