Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

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carlow man
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by carlow man »

Very well played by England. Sexton and Murray were awful. Both well off the pace and nowhere near fit enough to play in a test match v England . Might have got away with it if it was italy. Henshaw isn't a 15 and better suited to 12. Aki doesn't have the hands to be a distributor. No plan b unless you count aimless box kicking from Murray. They went after Earls who can't cope with physical teams and was exposed every time they went wide. Pack never got over the gainline and I never saw pom until he grabbed sinkler by the scruff of the neck. Completely outplayed and out thought by the little arsewipe Jones. Would like to see Addison get a run at 15, Conan at 8 v Scotland if stander has suffered a broken eye socket. Sob or Ruddock should start next week. Give cooney at run at 9 as Murray isn't fit and cooney deserves a start given his form over last 12 months. Could argue same for carbery but think sexton needs the minutes now as he needs to get sharp due to not playing in last 5 weeks.

OTT
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by OTT »

Earls can’t deal with physical teams?

That’s a load of nonsense. He got done by shooting up and missing and leaving a 2 on 1 on the outside, nothing to do with them being physical. Other then that he was pretty good besides being taken out late with a high shot which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and a yellow card against the offender and being taken out illegally beyond the ball by Itoje which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and probably should have been a yellow card against Itoje.

I get people’s biasis can come out and fair enough if you want to sh!t on Earls for the first try but it wasn’t because he lacked ‘physicality’ or isn’t able for the physicality England brought. There were also a lot of players who played far worse then Earls did in his limited time on the pitch.

When we beat teams like New Zealand and England with Earls in the team is this in spite of him not being able for their physicality or only when we lose? :roll:
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LeRouxIsPHat
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

I like Earls but thought he was all over the shop today. It was forgotten because of the yellow card but what was he doing kicking the ball like that? It was what you'd expect from a panicky schoolboy. He was clearly injured for a lot of the first half though and obviously it's going to be hard for a winger to play well when the rest of the team is beaten up and the kicks he has to chase are largely poor.

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neiliog93
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by neiliog93 »

We didn't have have an answer (and may never have) to a team with three enormous Polynesian forwards plus Sinckler and Itoje; another monstrosity in the backline in Manu Tuilagi, and with T'eo to come back in; good set pieces; a good attitude; and clever kicking half-backs.
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hugonaut
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by hugonaut »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote: And now I see on Twitter that he fractured his cheek and his eye socket at the very start of the game. Fair play to him for toughing it out for as long as he did.
Jesus Christ, that's impressive from Stander. One tough hombre.

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Logorrhea
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Logorrhea »

England were pretty damned impressive. Hard to imagine many teams in the world can play with them when they play with that intensity and accuracy. No shame in losing to a performance like that.

If they can maintain that, and that is a massive challenge for every team, they are screaming towards a slam.

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Peg Leg
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Peg Leg »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I like Earls but thought he was all over the shop today. It was forgotten because of the yellow card but what was he doing kicking the ball like that? It was what you'd expect from a panicky schoolboy. He was clearly injured for a lot of the first half though and obviously it's going to be hard for a winger to play well when the rest of the team is beaten up and the kicks he has to chase are largely poor.
Did itoje land on Earls ankle?
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SaS
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by SaS »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Joe seems to be blaming the ref but I think he needs to take a look at himself moreso than anyone else, that's the worst any of his teams have looked since he arrived in Ireland IMO. England had us figured out and we just couldn't react. It started with them attacking brilliantly and exposing Earls early on, and then their carrying and kicking game made us look vulnerable nearly every time they had the ball. England defended magnificently but we played into their hands.

Obviously Robbie turned out to be a dreadful call. I'm a broken record on this but I think it's really poor management to have Joey on the bench but not see him as a fullback. It's possible that Johnny was injured (certainly played like it) and Earls going off meant that we didn't want to make another change, but with the way the game was going I can't believe Joey didn't come on at fullback early in the second half. Robbie's selection gave them a blueprint of how to attack us but England's kicking game really was outstanding. We were weak at the back but they exposed us superbly.

Sexton can't have been fit, Aki seemed to be our ten which allowed England to strangle us because they weren't worried about him passing and know he can't chip in behind. When Johnny did get the ball he was often very deep, and to me he just looked sluggish a lot of the time. Murray hasn't really been at the races since he came back from injury (bar one or two games) and it's a big worry that we spent so long getting him right and yet he looks off the pace. He had one missed tackle that was just so unlike him that it made me question why he was even out there.

As well as England defended and as physical as they were it was really frustrating that we didn't change our approach. There's so many clips of us passing one out and being lined up by two defenders and driven back. That can happen, but why not increase the numbers in support, latch on, use tip on passes etc? Stander was really quiet, wonder when he picked up his injury because it just wasn't like him, not in green anyway. POM also really quiet. Our kicking/kick chase were awful but we kept on doing them

James Ryan, Josh, and (especially) Ringrose were the only positives (Healy, Furlong, and Porter decent too) I'd take from today, thought they all rose above the flat performances from everyone else. There's no need to panic but there are definitely things we need to work on going forward. The main thing is that we need to be more flexible, both in terms of the selection/subs and tactically. I'd like to have seen how things would have changed if Joey had come on at 15, Henshaw had moved to 12, Cronin had come on with half an hour to go, and Cooney got more time than he did. Plan A usually works for us but it's not like we don't have the players to try Plan B and it's annoying when we don't.

Fair play to England though, that was light years ahead of any other performance they've put in over the last couple of years.
I think there is a lot to what you say here. I haven't heard the interview with Joe so won't comment on that. My main concern with today was that our half-backs were both very poor but yet were left on the pitch for so long. I can understand what you say that Carberry should have come on earlier at 15 but he's there as cover for Sexton and should have been on long before Sexton gave away the intercepted pass. The same goes for Murray, there is no way he should have lasted 70 odd minutes. If Joe doesn't trust the back-ups at half-back then we have a real problem, not only in the 6 Nations but in the World Cup. Our back row was beaten today, apart from Van der Flier who tackeld everyone in sight and Ringrose waw our stand-out back, which makes it all the more puzzling that he was taken off for Carberry. All in all, we didn't play at the intensity or precision that we normally do and we let England dictate the game but I wouldn't discount our chances to win the 6 Nations or England's ability to self-implode. Jones had his team prepared and they were well coached but it's a long haul...

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hugonaut
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by hugonaut »

Logorrhea wrote:England were pretty damned impressive. Hard to imagine many teams in the world can play with them when they play with that intensity and accuracy. No shame in losing to a performance like that.

If they can maintain that, and that is a massive challenge for every team, they are screaming towards a slam.
Yeah, they were outstanding. Brutal up front, slick in the backs, tactically astute. They absolutely whipped us. Don't remember them putting in as good a one-off performance as that during their long unbeaten run. Best they've played in six or seven years.

.

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Peg Leg
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Peg Leg »

Logorrhea wrote:England were pretty damned impressive. Hard to imagine many teams in the world can play with them when they play with that intensity and accuracy. No shame in losing to a performance like that.

If they can maintain that, and that is a massive challenge for every team, they are screaming towards a slam.
I always remember JS talking about manufacturing dips in his teams so they peak at the right time. This is the straw which I am currently clutching, Eddie's back is agin the wall and has everything pointed at this game, Englands biggest match. Joe wants a different trophy and the team hasn't had much food for thought of late. I meam its obvious to me that this was planned. Had to be. Lads needed a kick up the hole. Right?
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hugonaut
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by hugonaut »

Peg Leg wrote:
Logorrhea wrote:England were pretty damned impressive. Hard to imagine many teams in the world can play with them when they play with that intensity and accuracy. No shame in losing to a performance like that.

If they can maintain that, and that is a massive challenge for every team, they are screaming towards a slam.
I always remember JS talking about manufacturing dips in his teams so they peak at the right time. This is the straw which I am currently clutching, Eddie's back is agin the wall and has everything pointed at this game, Englands biggest match. Joe wants a different trophy and the team hasn't had much food for thought of late. I meam its obvious to me that this was planned. Had to be. Lads needed a kick up the hole. Right?
They got a kick up the hole, planned or not.

Ruckedtobits
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Ruckedtobits »

England's brutal Game Plan was executed with great efficiency. But the key point of the game was their second try, scored within minutes of us going ahead on the scoreboard. Thereafter, we never threatened to control the match.

Robbie's sliced touchkick off his weaker foot gave them a line-out opportunity which they took into mid-field and drew him way out of position. They immediately reversed direction back towards the line-out point and Daley, 3rd receiver, put a gem of a grubber behind Stockdale and followed up and scored when Jacob spilled the ball.

The Lansdowne crowd, and the Irish team, never recovered after that.

Although we were only 4 points adrift on 60 minutes we were chasing the game as if we were 12 points down. Our pack were beaten up. Our half-backs were pressurised. We never got any tempo or go-forward ball and our back-three were targeted, successfully.

We're more used to doing this to other teams and not at all used to being the focus of a Game Plan targeted at a specific weakness and ruthlessly executed. Jones decided Earls was vulnerable to an aerial attack. He threw in some illegal physicality for good measure. We didn't like it. Keith hated it, but had no answer today and Joe had no response from the sideline.

The targeted attack on Earls was compounded by Robbie Henshaw's lack of experience at full-back. However, it was made possible by the carrying of very strong English forwards who won almost every collision in the first-half and presented ball on a platter to Youngs.

We weren't emotionally invested in this game like the English were. However, I'm happier that it happened today rather than against, say, S. Africa in Japan next October

OTT
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by OTT »

I hope for our sake going forward that Schmidt comes up with different conclusions then we have on here. I’m no apologist for Earls but is he really getting blamed for losing the aerial battle now? I think they kicked two or three times to him, he took one with no contest then got hit late, he didn’t get a chance to compete for the next one because Itoje ran past the flight of the ball and took Earls out leading with his studs. Did he lose one they kicked to him?


As I said already, he did shite for their first try rake him over the coals for that much like Larmour did for their crucial third but what is this narrative of making him some sort of fall guy for things that didn’t actually happen.
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TerenureJim
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by TerenureJim »

Logorrhea wrote:England were pretty damned impressive. Hard to imagine many teams in the world can play with them when they play with that intensity and accuracy. No shame in losing to a performance like that.

If they can maintain that, and that is a massive challenge for every team, they are screaming towards a slam.
England were massively fired up and we were carrying injuries, took early knocks and were being experimental (irresponsibly so IMO re 15) full credit to the English for their win (aside from some scummy Jones planned dirty hits, he is a pr!*k no doubts) but id honestly see both the Welsh and the French being able to take them on their day and quite likely too.

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Degz
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Degz »

TerenureJim wrote:
Logorrhea wrote:England were pretty damned impressive. Hard to imagine many teams in the world can play with them when they play with that intensity and accuracy. No shame in losing to a performance like that.

If they can maintain that, and that is a massive challenge for every team, they are screaming towards a slam.
England were massively fired up and we were carrying injuries, took early knocks and were being experimental (irresponsibly so IMO re 15) full credit to the English for their win (aside from some scummy Jones planned dirty hits, he is a pr!*k no doubts) but id honestly see both the Welsh and the French being able to take them on their day and quite likely too.
Jaysus, France haven't put in a performance like England did yesterday this Century. That was an absolute masterclass from England and they'll get better from it, with confidence now.

Wales away is the only potential game to stop an English slam, whether they hit the heights of yesterday going forward, or not.

From an Irish POV, I can see a reaction over in Murrayfield, and Scotland were piss poor yesterday. If we can win three from three then I can still see us winning in Wales for a more than respectable 6 Nations. Conan and Seany to start, Kearney back in at 15 with Robbie to 12. I'd like to have seen Joey in this game but that will now likely more forward to the Italy game. Best will count himself lucky if he survives the end of this competition. Scannell and Cronin have offered more for 18 months now.

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outcast eddie
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by outcast eddie »

SaS wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Joe seems to be blaming the ref but I think he needs to take a look at himself moreso than anyone else, that's the worst any of his teams have looked since he arrived in Ireland IMO. England had us figured out and we just couldn't react. It started with them attacking brilliantly and exposing Earls early on, and then their carrying and kicking game made us look vulnerable nearly every time they had the ball. England defended magnificently but we played into their hands.

Obviously Robbie turned out to be a dreadful call. I'm a broken record on this but I think it's really poor management to have Joey on the bench but not see him as a fullback. It's possible that Johnny was injured (certainly played like it) and Earls going off meant that we didn't want to make another change, but with the way the game was going I can't believe Joey didn't come on at fullback early in the second half. Robbie's selection gave them a blueprint of how to attack us but England's kicking game really was outstanding. We were weak at the back but they exposed us superbly.

Sexton can't have been fit, Aki seemed to be our ten which allowed England to strangle us because they weren't worried about him passing and know he can't chip in behind. When Johnny did get the ball he was often very deep, and to me he just looked sluggish a lot of the time. Murray hasn't really been at the races since he came back from injury (bar one or two games) and it's a big worry that we spent so long getting him right and yet he looks off the pace. He had one missed tackle that was just so unlike him that it made me question why he was even out there.

As well as England defended and as physical as they were it was really frustrating that we didn't change our approach. There's so many clips of us passing one out and being lined up by two defenders and driven back. That can happen, but why not increase the numbers in support, latch on, use tip on passes etc? Stander was really quiet, wonder when he picked up his injury because it just wasn't like him, not in green anyway. POM also really quiet. Our kicking/kick chase were awful but we kept on doing them

James Ryan, Josh, and (especially) Ringrose were the only positives (Healy, Furlong, and Porter decent too) I'd take from today, thought they all rose above the flat performances from everyone else. There's no need to panic but there are definitely things we need to work on going forward. The main thing is that we need to be more flexible, both in terms of the selection/subs and tactically. I'd like to have seen how things would have changed if Joey had come on at 15, Henshaw had moved to 12, Cronin had come on with half an hour to go, and Cooney got more time than he did. Plan A usually works for us but it's not like we don't have the players to try Plan B and it's annoying when we don't.

Fair play to England though, that was light years ahead of any other performance they've put in over the last couple of years.
I think there is a lot to what you say here. I haven't heard the interview with Joe so won't comment on that. My main concern with today was that our half-backs were both very poor but yet were left on the pitch for so long. I can understand what you say that Carberry should have come on earlier at 15 but he's there as cover for Sexton and should have been on long before Sexton gave away the intercepted pass. The same goes for Murray, there is no way he should have lasted 70 odd minutes. If Joe doesn't trust the back-ups at half-back then we have a real problem, not only in the 6 Nations but in the World Cup. Our back row was beaten today, apart from Van der Flier who tackeld everyone in sight and Ringrose waw our stand-out back, which makes it all the more puzzling that he was taken off for Carberry. All in all, we didn't play at the intensity or precision that we normally do and we let England dictate the game but I wouldn't discount our chances to win the 6 Nations or England's ability to self-implode. Jones had his team prepared and they were well coached but it's a long haul...
We got BP'd at home and didn't even rack up a losing BP; I admire your optimism.

There were many reasons for the loss yesterday but complacency was certainly one of them. In sports psychology terms it shows how special NZ's perpetual excellence is.
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carlow man
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by carlow man »

OTT wrote:Earls can’t deal with physical teams?

That’s a load of nonsense. He got done by shooting up and missing and leaving a 2 on 1 on the outside, nothing to do with them being physical. Other then that he was pretty good besides being taken out late with a high shot which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and a yellow card against the offender and being taken out illegally beyond the ball by Itoje which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and probably should have been a yellow card against Itoje.

I get people’s biasis can come out and fair enough if you want to sh!t on Earls for the first try but it wasn’t because he lacked ‘physicality’ or isn’t able for the physicality England brought. There were also a lot of players who played far worse then Earls did in his limited time on the pitch.

When we beat teams like New Zealand and England with Earls in the team is this in spite of him not being able for their physicality or only when we lose? :roll:
That's your opinion. I've given mine. Get over it. He had a shocker and it was why he was taken off at ht. When was last time earls was subbed at ht in a test match? They targeted him and look what happened. He's a very good player and will prob start again next week but yesterday he was the weak link as far as England were concerned.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Degz »

carlow man wrote:
OTT wrote:Earls can’t deal with physical teams?

That’s a load of nonsense. He got done by shooting up and missing and leaving a 2 on 1 on the outside, nothing to do with them being physical. Other then that he was pretty good besides being taken out late with a high shot which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and a yellow card against the offender and being taken out illegally beyond the ball by Itoje which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and probably should have been a yellow card against Itoje.

I get people’s biasis can come out and fair enough if you want to sh!t on Earls for the first try but it wasn’t because he lacked ‘physicality’ or isn’t able for the physicality England brought. There were also a lot of players who played far worse then Earls did in his limited time on the pitch.

When we beat teams like New Zealand and England with Earls in the team is this in spite of him not being able for their physicality or only when we lose? :roll:
That's your opinion. I've given mine. Get over it. He had a shocker and it was why he was taken off at ht. When was last time earls was subbed at ht in a test match? They targeted him and look what happened. He's a very good player and will prob start again next week but yesterday he was the weak link as far as England were concerned.
Have to agree re Earls physicality. Historically he's had problems being bumped by bigger men, I remember one occasion against the All Blacks he was monstered by Rico Gear.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by thecomedian »

carlow man wrote:
OTT wrote:Earls can’t deal with physical teams?

That’s a load of nonsense. He got done by shooting up and missing and leaving a 2 on 1 on the outside, nothing to do with them being physical. Other then that he was pretty good besides being taken out late with a high shot which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and a yellow card against the offender and being taken out illegally beyond the ball by Itoje which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and probably should have been a yellow card against Itoje.

I get people’s biasis can come out and fair enough if you want to sh!t on Earls for the first try but it wasn’t because he lacked ‘physicality’ or isn’t able for the physicality England brought. There were also a lot of players who played far worse then Earls did in his limited time on the pitch.

When we beat teams like New Zealand and England with Earls in the team is this in spite of him not being able for their physicality or only when we lose? :roll:
That's your opinion. I've given mine. Get over it. He had a shocker and it was why he was taken off at ht. When was last time earls was subbed at ht in a test match? They targeted him and look what happened. He's a very good player and will prob start again next week but yesterday he was the weak link as far as England were concerned.
Earls was taken off as he was injured.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by hugonaut »

carlow man wrote:
OTT wrote:Earls can’t deal with physical teams?

That’s a load of nonsense. He got done by shooting up and missing and leaving a 2 on 1 on the outside, nothing to do with them being physical. Other then that he was pretty good besides being taken out late with a high shot which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and a yellow card against the offender and being taken out illegally beyond the ball by Itoje which resulted in a penalty for Ireland and probably should have been a yellow card against Itoje.

I get people’s biasis can come out and fair enough if you want to sh!t on Earls for the first try but it wasn’t because he lacked ‘physicality’ or isn’t able for the physicality England brought. There were also a lot of players who played far worse then Earls did in his limited time on the pitch.

When we beat teams like New Zealand and England with Earls in the team is this in spite of him not being able for their physicality or only when we lose? :roll:
That's your opinion. I've given mine. Get over it. He had a shocker and it was why he was taken off at ht. When was last time earls was subbed at ht in a test match? They targeted him and look what happened. He's a very good player and will prob start again next week but yesterday he was the weak link as far as England were concerned.
He was injured, that's why he was taken off at halftime.

' Earls only lasted 40 minutes of the game after taking some heavy blows in illegal challenges from Tom Curry, who was yellow carded, and Maro Itoje, who conceded a penalty only. Indeed, Schmidt felt that the physical battering Earls took – he was withdrawn at half time with a hip injury – played into what was a demanding night for Henshaw. “I thought Robbie did a pretty good job,” said Schmidt when asked if he felt Henshaw had been targeted by England. “Keith, for 20 minutes, was keen to run off the hip pointer but you can’t really run those off, so he was a little bit under pressure to cover the space and take responsibility for his side of the pitch." ' [Source: https://www.the42.ie/henshaw-fullback-s ... =shortlink ]

Difficult to know if England targeted him strategically or opportunistically, but they certainly bashed him up off the ball.

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