Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

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thecomedian
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by thecomedian »

Huge overreaction on here.
England were class and played to their potential which is something they haven’t done regularly.
The defended like we normally would, their speed off the line is what caused us problems.
Murray wasn’t great but I was disappointed with Sexton. He wasn’t influencing the game. Bringing on Joey and Cooney earlier wouldn’t have make any difference to the result IMO but it would have being good to see how they cope it that situation.
Henshaw should be 12 and it still seems a very strange decision.

The small glimpse of SOB over the last few weeks reminds me of why he is one of our greatest backrows ever

carlow man
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by carlow man »

Earls wasn't hit in the hip on either of those occasions. First one was a late hit on his upper body. Second was a guy jumping into him. This happens all the time. Can't say he went off due to those incidents. It was a very physical game and some lads coped with it and some didn't.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by carlow man »

Should Ireland do something about this slow start issue? It's costing us big time. Maybe a quick tackling drill after the anthems have finished?
Or keep the team out longer until just before the kick off? So they literally just go back in and change shirts, grab a quick drink and back out for the anthems?
Lads just aren't switching on quick enough when the whistle goes. It's been an issue for a few seasons now and nothing seems to done to combat it. Saw a few of the Welsh lads firing into each other before kick off on Friday night just to get them in the mood. Maybe our lads should do the same? Just an idea!

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Oldschool »

Joe imho, made a lot of errors yesterday.
Thankfully it was yesterday and the RWC in a few months time.
1. Rule number one, don't select unfit players no matter what their reputations.
2. Rule number two, see rule number one.
3. Having broken rules 1 and 2, at least be ready to bring on the bench early limit the damage.
4. Don't pick players out of position, Larmour.
5. A BR of Stander, POM and VDF is not robust enough to match a power driven BR like England's.
Conan VDF and Stander or Stander, VDF and Ruddock is what you needed, with SOB on the bench
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by The Doc »

carlow man wrote:Should Ireland do something about this slow start issue? It's costing us big time. Maybe a quick tackling drill after the anthems have finished?
Or keep the team out longer until just before the kick off? So they literally just go back in and change shirts, grab a quick drink and back out for the anthems?
Lads just aren't switching on quick enough when the whistle goes. It's been an issue for a few seasons now and nothing seems to done to combat it. Saw a few of the Welsh lads firing into each other before kick off on Friday night just to get them in the mood. Maybe our lads should do the same? Just an idea!
It's slow starts to tournaments, not games, that has been alleged.

Maybe a tackling drill at the press launch?


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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Ruckedtobits »

IMO, it's highly unlikely that the game plan and tactics of the English were opportunistic, it takes a fair bit of rigorous rehearsal to get that degree of accuracy in attacking one position so repeatedly. On the other hand, having rehearsed the attack on our right wing, England must have been delighted with the opportunity presented by Henshaw's selection.

Jones's general game plan for this English team will always include huge physicality in defence. In attack, his use of two man pods of forwards is a theme which he has developed with various teams. However, almost by accident (of injuries) he arrived at Farrell, Tuilagi and Slade in mid-field. Its a mid-field combination I have feared for a couple of years because it's hard, intelligent and experienced.

England will progress from here and their examination by Wales should provide one of the best spectacles of the Season. Wales will need to find a No 8, but if they do, Gatland's team will present a real challenge to the hardness of the English.

As for Ireland, some of the criticism and anguish is beyond necessary, even if understandable. Schmidt and his Squad will be stunned by how a very simple game plan, albeit with superb execution, took away their "Emperor's Clothes". But they will respond and it will be a pleasure to watch.

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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

carlow man wrote:Should Ireland do something about this slow start issue?
Was thinking the same. It is obviously an issue...but I haven't seen such a fired up performance in the six nations since 2007 when we took England on in Croke park. Even the intercept via Sexton near the end reminded me of Boss doing the same in that game. England were so buzzed up for yesterdays game, it showed.

I was in twickers for the final game last year and we totally bossed them there...that must have hurt them....and the previous season we denied them a grand slam...as well as stopping them getting a winning record of 19 games on the trot! So it is no wonder they were fired up.

Hats off to EJ and his coaching team though. They clearly got their game plan spot on and the intensity they kept going for most of the game was impressive. I suppose we should take it as a compliment that an English team needed to play out of their skins to beat us. I remember after the game in 2007 POC said he felt he could play for another 80 minutes...it looked the same yesterday. Albeit with the boot on other foot. In the same breath, England got to the WC final that year.

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suisse
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by suisse »

The full back experiment backfired spectacularly. Too many people all week saying put your best players on the park but that's not how it works. You put the best players in each position on the park. I don't understand why Joey Carbery was 'moved' to Munster if we're not gonna use when the starting 10 is having a nightmare. Reputations shouldn't count. Either Sexton should have gone or Carbery should have come on at 15 much earlier. To have a very talented and in form play maker sitting on the bench for 70 mins of a game we had very little attacking momentum is terrible management.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Dave Cahill »

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here is how poor our passing was, left to right, right to left, forwards and backs - it was very bad - too high, too low, behind the passee, the whole gamut of passing error was on display. And by passing I also mean the decision on when to pass and if a pass should be made in the first place. Now a huge amount of credit for that has to go to the immense pressure England were putting us under - not only physically, but mentally also, but the players have to take responsibility too for being so poor at such a basic aspect of the game.
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LeRouxIsPHat
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Dave Cahill wrote:One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here is how poor our passing was, left to right, right to left, forwards and backs - it was very bad - too high, too low, behind the passee, the whole gamut of passing error was on display. And by passing I also mean the decision on when to pass and if a pass should be made in the first place. Now a huge amount of credit for that has to go to the immense pressure England were putting us under - not only physically, but mentally also, but the players have to take responsibility too for being so poor at such a basic aspect of the game.
Ditto for the kick chase. I thought we box kicked too much in the second half instead of mixing it up, but I get that it's worked in the past and we couldn't get momentum. We never really seemed set for the chase though. I know Joe has said we were blocked off and maybe there's something in that, but we rarely looked ready for it and I think we should have used Henshaw to chase more often too.

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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Dave Cahill wrote:One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here is how poor our passing was, left to right, right to left, forwards and backs - it was very bad - too high, too low, behind the passee, the whole gamut of passing error was on display. And by passing I also mean the decision on when to pass and if a pass should be made in the first place. Now a huge amount of credit for that has to go to the immense pressure England were putting us under - not only physically, but mentally also, but the players have to take responsibility too for being so poor at such a basic aspect of the game.
Agreed on all counts and would include our own kicking as being cr@p too. That intensity in defense from the english was impressive though....and obviously led to poor/panicky passes. Our composure was completely lost. We clearly need a plan b....we're playing against detailed systems/pods etc. but when we're hit with such rush, high pressure defense we are clearly unsure what to do. I am sure Schmidt and farrell are already onto a plan to deal with this in future. ABs did something very similar to us in 2016 after the chicago game so it is not the first time we have been hurt this way. In the same breath, we gifted them two tries...like the french on friday...a defensive try line fumble by stockdale and an intercept via sexton late in the game.

I mentioned the croke park game in 2007 earlier...where we were really fired up and completely nullified the english. nobody predicted the score back then...and not many predicted yesterdays score. the intercept try yesterday was not unlike Isacc boss doing the same in 07. Similar doom and gloom amongst the english followed that game...yet...England went on to reach the WC final that year.

No excuses for yesterday....the english game plan was spot on and implemented perfectly.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

suisse wrote:The full back experiment backfired spectacularly. Too many people all week saying put your best players on the park but that's not how it works. You put the best players in each position on the park. I don't understand why Joey Carbery was 'moved' to Munster if we're not gonna use when the starting 10 is having a nightmare. Reputations shouldn't count. Either Sexton should have gone or Carbery should have come on at 15 much earlier. To have a very talented and in form play maker sitting on the bench for 70 mins of a game we had very little attacking momentum is terrible management.
For me the mistake wasn't trying to see what Robbie looked like at fullback, it was doing it against England when he hasn't played there in ages and has barely played in the last couple of months anyway. It'll be interesting to see if we try it again next week, wouldn't be surprised either way but Earls' injury complicates things a little bit. It may work in the future or it may not, but he shouldn't have been thrown in cold against England to find out.

A lot of things would have to happen but I wonder if there's any chance of Adam Byrne being in the mix this week? If Rob isn't fancied for whatever reason (suspect he will be) and if we wanted to double down on Larmour as being the backup 15, then that would leave a spot on the wing and Addison would be great bench cover. Highly unlikely but you never know.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by carlow man »

Ok

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by carlow man »

Doubt Byrne will start against Scotland. Prob see larmour on right wing with henshaw at full back again. Actually like to see carbery at full back and Robbie back in at 12 as aki isn't as good as him imo. Woukd like to see cooney alongside sexton.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Oldschool »

thecomedian wrote:Huge overreaction on here.
England were class and played to their potential which is something they haven’t done regularly.
The defended like we normally would, their speed off the line is what caused us problems.
Murray wasn’t great but I was disappointed with Sexton. He wasn’t influencing the game. Bringing on Joey and Cooney earlier wouldn’t have make any difference to the result IMO but it would have being good to see how they cope it that situation.
Henshaw should be 12 and it still seems a very strange decision.

The small glimpse of SOB over the last few weeks reminds me of why he is one of our greatest backrows ever
Your wrong on nearly everything you posted except the comments about Henshaw and SOB
The reaction is the right one.
Yesterday's performance was unacceptable.
Pounds Shillings and Pence Ireland is no longer legal or acceptable currency.
To say that Murray and Sexton weren't great and that Joey and Cooney wouldn't have made any difference is poppy c~*k They're both damn good players a lot better than anything either Sexton or Murray produced
yesterday. Cooney demonstrated that in the few minutes he was on, upped the tempo immediately and the team responded.
There was/is something not right with both of them.
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carlow man
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by carlow man »

It's not often I agree with you o.s but you are right on this one. Players shouldn't be left on the pitch because they are senior players or because of their reputation. If you are playing badly then expect the hook. How best stayed on as long as he did was a joke. The guy is 36 and the pace and sheer physicality of the match doesn't suit him at his age. He did nothing yesterday. Same for pom. Sexton and Murray were awful and looked off form very early on. If you have a bench then use it. Getting beat up by England in Dublin shouldn't happen. It was a case of who wanted it more. They did, we didn't.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Let's not excessively personalise the English tactics. Including restarts they directed 13 high kicks, with a strong chase, to our right wing - in both halves. We were not able to convert one of these into a counter-attacking opportunity. nor were we able to protect our cathcher adequately on most occasions to even set-up a stable recovery. This was predominantly due to the excellence with which England executed this tactic.

Sure, Ireland could spend time at every session during next week improving our defence against this tactic, but does anybody really think it will be repeated against us with the same efficiency?

I hope that Joe, his fellow Coaches and our senior players are already analsying the Scottish team with a view to developing a Game Plan targeted at de-constructing what they did well yesterday and identifying our particular strengths which will provide us with opportunities to score points.

The Irish Squad has not become a poor group during the 90+ minutes of yesterday's game. Yes, we will need to analyse at some point how we might cope with a game plan like England's, when we next face it. That won't be next weekend or even a fortnight hence in Rome. For now, let's focus on the task in hand, how to beat Scotland in Murrayfield.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by Oldschool »

Ruckedtobits wrote:Let's not excessively personalise the English tactics. Including restarts they directed 13 high kicks, with a strong chase, to our right wing - in both halves. We were not able to convert one of these into a counter-attacking opportunity. nor were we able to protect our cathcher adequately on most occasions to even set-up a stable recovery. This was predominantly due to the excellence with which England executed this tactic.

Sure, Ireland could spend time at every session during next week improving our defence against this tactic, but does anybody really think it will be repeated against us with the same efficiency?

I hope that Joe, his fellow Coaches and our senior players are already analsying the Scottish team with a view to developing a Game Plan targeted at de-constructing what they did well yesterday and identifying our particular strengths which will provide us with opportunities to score points.

The Irish Squad has not become a poor group during the 90+ minutes of yesterday's game. Yes, we will need to analyse at some point how we might cope with a game plan like England's, when we next face it. That won't be next weekend or even a fortnight hence in Rome. For now, let's focus on the task in hand, how to beat Scotland in Murrayfield.
That's the whole point. We know the Irish squad is a good set of players but only if they are fit. IMHO that if was ignored yesterday.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by RoboProp »

Tactically we got everything wrong yesterday. Johnny and Murray weren't at the races, as many have noted they looked to be carrying something . We had 2 form players on the bench, why not start with them? Henshaw and Ringrose would have been a better starting centre partnership. Trying to play bosh ball with Aki was playing right into their hands.
Best's head didn't look in it during the anthems, he didn't seem his usual focused self. At all times we looked like a team more scared of losing than committed to win.
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suisse
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Post by suisse »

I was seated on half way West Stand right up at the back. After the terrible start, we settled and for around 20 mins, were in complete control. Sexton kicks tp the corner at 3-7 and we make it count. At that moment, I thought we would win this game by 7-10 points.

A few mins later, my dad and I noticed that even though England had the ball, they offered absolutely no width. Ireland's defensive line was spread out and we didn't commit anyone to the breakdown. The English fans in front of us were bemoaning the complete lack of options available to Ben Youngs. We seemed to completely have their number and then suddenly a speculative grubber brings on an unforced error and England score 7 points. I know people keep saying we were only 4 down with 15 mins to go, but I felt that try changed the game completely and we never looked like being able to wrestle back the initiative. Ireland were sluggish, made errors and were out fought.

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