RWC2019 31-man squad

[CiaranIrl]

Any fuss about most of the selection decisions is mostly pointless, because in nearly every case it's about who the right backup is that will never play. Who cares about Carty Vs Byrne in that neither will play very much. Conway and Farrell will barely play any meaningful minutes, so it's fairly irrelevant if Addison was more deserving. Similar with Jordi Vs Ruddock to be honest.

The difference with Toner is that I genuinely think he should be starting. His maul defence, restarts, lineouts, clear outs and even his ball handling are outstanding.

In fairness, we ended up having to play a load of backups in the QF last time out [Mads, Chris Henry, Jordi, etc.]. A huge focus for Schmidt, Farrell and Easterby has been building strength in depth over the last three season.

I agree with you on Dev. Practically every time he's out of the team, our lineout goes to sh*t. Then we bring him in for the next match, and miraculously it gets better. Now we can't bring him in for the next match.

I know, yeah, but the level of depth we used for that knockout game was basically unprecedented. Enough so that it was all anyone talked about for years. Chances are that we'll only tap into the likes of Carty/Conway/Farrell for the Russia/Samoa games. I could be wrong obviously, but the Toner one sticks in the craw much more.

[hugonaut]

Have to say that I'm with RTB here, 100%.

There's a bit of recency bias – Farrell's most recent match saw him make 0m over 80 mins and throw one of his three passes on the ground. As an outside centre. To call it an ordinary performance would be to put its value way too high. It was just plain poor.

Addison has got a lot going for him that Farrell doesn't. He's got more pace, better balance, has better hands, is a better kicker, a placekicking option, a more intuitive footballer and covers more positions.

He is tailor-made for the No23 jersey ... he's started a first class pro game in every position from No11-15 over the last three years [including 55 starts on the wing for Sale, the majority on the right, but double-figures on the left]; he kicks goals; and his nominal positions for Ulster this season have been outside centre and fullback, two specific positions we were looking to cover behind incumbents.

He did well in the air against Wales and made a great last-gasp tackle on the touchline, exactly what you're looking for from a fullback in defense. He looked dangerous with the ball in hand. As important as his ability was his temperament: he had one chance to perform, and he performed. He's in form. I think all those are indisputables. Saying I'd prefer him at fullback to either Larmour or Conway is just an opinion.

Lastly, what more did JS want to see from him? I was sort of surprised to see him picked in the team for that game, because I thought that he had missed so much of the camp with injury that he had been written off. But then he got the nod and went very well ... and the guy with whom he is in competition [given that Addison played 9 of his 11 start at No13 for Ulster this year, that's Farrell] played a rubbish match. And then Addison gets axed the next day. It's a bit of a WTF moment. What more could he have done?

To be honest, I think picking this guy was an open goal.

Then you're also with me because I said I'd pick Addison and leave out Farrell.

My issue wasn't the idea that RTB would pick Addison, it's that there was only one side to the story. You can't just look at what one guy did in 50(?) minutes of rugby and ignore everything else about the context of that game, last season, and what others will bring to Japan, which is what I think RTB did. Everyone is free to disagree with the logic behind the selection, but the point is that there is a logic to it.

I mean you could even make an argument that we don't need both Rhys and Beirne in the squad so leaving out Rhys could have paved the way for an extra back. Loads and loads of angles to look at this which are all more valid than simply thinking your guy should travel because he played well.

Absolutely, you can make an argument for anything. The key is making an argument that is plausible to people other than yourself!

It looked to me like JS had a plan for Addison and was holding out for him to come good so that he could pick him. And then he came good and JS didn't pick him!

He brought Addison in to train with the squad as soon as he could during last year's pre-season, then picked him for Ireland at the first opportunity, that game against Italy in Chicago [where he came on for Stockdale as a winger]. Then he started him at No13 against Argentina the following week and two weeks after played him at fullback against the US. He used him in three positions in a month. Very World Cup-y.

Then he got injured before the Six Nations. He hadn't played a match since late January and JS included him in the wider squad, which was a significant leap of faith; then he passed the first cull [R. Scannell and Dillane], and then the second cull [Cooney, Bealham and Haley] without playing a minute. Then he was included in the last chance saloon game and performed really well.

So to me he looked like a really good pick, because he ticks so many boxes [including the fact that he's only just gone 27] and is in good form.

[ronk]

Addison is a good option to keep warm if someone needs to be called up. Its not all waste. With his injury he may not be there, especially for a tournament with pressure on turnaround times.

Ruddock a surprise, not on form but on position. How close is he to making the 23 because he has been playing well.

I've generally been a bigger fan of Luke McGrath than Marmion. Jack McGrath maybe not helped by the fixtures but doesnt have form since the Lions tour.

Toner-Kleyn, I don't see it at all, especially with Scotland first up.

[artaneboy]

I'm completely bemused by all this talk about Marmion. What exactly does he bring to the party that has people up in arms, or indeed, "overcome"? Is he really that good that it's a crazy decision not to pick him? Or is Luke really that sh!t that it's a dreadful decision?

Barring injury or a huge points differential we won't be seeing the backup scrumhalf in any of the important games. If we do need him then Luke has shown against England and NZ that he can do well off the bench, so who cares?

I'd have gone with Marmion, think he just about earned it despite his form not being particularly good over the last couple of years, but whoever was picked was a big drop down from Murray and IMO he's had plenty of average performances for Ireland to go along with the good ones.

Luke is a brilliant defender, a leader, has a long standing relationship with Sexton and Carbery, a better box kicker than Marmion now (that's subjective and it's not like either of them are amazing), has played a lot of knockout rugby in Europe, and has shown that he can add tempo off the bench. Marmion is a fine scrumhalf but what exactly does he offer that renders all of that redundant?

I can get the arguments for Dev because of his experience and his importance at lineout time and at restarts, and I'm a bit confused as to why there isn't more talk about Jordi not going because of the issue that creates at 7, but the pro Marmion brigade baffles me.

Well obviously as it appears that Marmion is a better passer of the ball than McGrath is among those reasons for surprise. 9s pass the ball more than any other player and that has huge influence in how the team plays. So excellent passing is generally considered a crucial central skill of a SH. Excellent is both accurate and fast. “Nippy”-if it goes to ground, behind the receiver or above the head regularly is traditionally not seen as acceptable.

I don’t incidentally think that Luke is that much more advanced in the other elements of play- beyond the central skill of passing. Marmion offers plenty around the field. He’s demonstrated that often enough for Ireland and Connacht; a weaker team than Leinster.

Murray’s pass is adequate in being at least mostly accurate, if slower than optimum. Connery’s pass was the best (with a very good kicking and all round game too)- he’s the real loser at 9. Marmion was somewhere between the McGrath and Murray on overall ability on my judgement- but a better passer than both.

But it may be that you and others have a fellow traveler in Joe- and excellent passing ability is not a key concern in selecting a SH for the squad to challenge for the RWC. I wish them the best.

Very disappointed for Devin and don’t see the logic there either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[domhnallj]

Matt Williams in today's IT going full bore into JS. Most of it is blah blah but the standout claim he makes is that Toners cards were marked from last January - he was out, and now he is out out.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4005455

[Oldschool]

Any fuss about most of the selection decisions is mostly pointless, because in nearly every case it's about who the right backup is that will never play. Who cares about Carty Vs Byrne in that neither will play very much. Conway and Farrell will barely play any meaningful minutes, so it's fairly irrelevant if Addison was more deserving. Similar with Jordi Vs Ruddock to be honest.

The difference with Toner is that I genuinely think he should be starting. His maul defence, restarts, lineouts, clear outs and even his ball handling are outstanding.

In fairness, we ended up having to play a load of backups in the QF last time out [Mads, Chris Henry, Jordi, etc.]. A huge focus for Schmidt, Farrell and Easterby has been building strength in depth over the last three season.

I agree with you on Dev. Practically every time he's out of the team, our lineout goes to sh*t. Then we bring him in for the next match, and miraculously it gets better. Now we can't bring him in for the next match.

I know, yeah, but the level of depth we used for that knockout game was basically unprecedented. Enough so that it was all anyone talked about for years. Chances are that we'll only tap into the likes of Carty/Conway/Farrell for the Russia/Samoa games. I could be wrong obviously, but the Toner one sticks in the craw much more.

It could very easily happen again given the?? over the fitness/form of Sexton, Carberry, Henshaw, Murray, Healy, Best POM and Stander.
We're an accident away from being in a lot of trouble.
Because of our group we might get to the QF relatively unscathed but the last 8/9 months are long enough a period to be indicative of trouble ahead.

[EarthGorilla]

For all the disagreements over selection, there are arguments for and against most. For example, Farrell is unlucky in that he is 4th best of the 4 centres, and I thought Addisons versatility would edge that decision, but Farrell is class so you can't begrudge him.

The problem with the Kleyn decision, is that kleyn isn't very good. And his 2 auditions were a nothing game vs Italy and 1 of our worst ever days where the lineout failure played a huge role in that capitulation and he as a 2R has to take the brunt of the blame along with the hooker. I have never seen anything from Kleyn to say he is even better than Roux or Dillane, nevermind Dev. His standout attributes are his saracastic laughs, claps and pats on the back of the opposition while trying to wind people up. His discipline is poor and he gets blown away to anonymity everytime Munster meet anyone good. I'd be very concerned if he has to play any actual meaningful minutes against anyone half decent.

The project player argument is a funny one. I've seen people accuse those who don't like it of xenophobia, which IMO, is a massive leap. International rugby is about playing for YOUR country and that's always been the point of it. But there is precedent, and lots of it, so it isn't new. The problem here is that previously you could see why a guy was coming in, because we lacked good homegrown options (Strauss) or because they are outstanding talents (Stander, Bundee, Lowe). Kleyn is neither. He is a run of the mill lump and Joe has taken a homegrown guy who he has relied on dearly in his 6 year tenure, who was MOTM in November in 1 of his greatest ever wins, and essentially punished him for an injury plagued run post 6N, replacing him withh a 2 cap wonder who has done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Added to that Sexton, Murray and Carbery have barely strung together an injury free run of games this year, and yet are all on the plane. As usual with Joe the past few years, a whole plethora of contradictions.

[OTT]

My theory on Addisson is that Schmidt wanted to take him (he has tried to include him whenever he can) I think he would have been 23 in the 6 nations if he was fit but there must be a risk that he is not ready for 6 weeks of high intensity matches. We also have to look at how frequently Henshaw, Kearney, Sexton and Earls (4 of our probable starters) pick up innocuous injuries that keep them out of games and do you need the guy who steps in to be in that bracket. Conway seems to have cleared up his hamstring issues he had when he was breaking through and Farrell had some serious and unlucky long term injuries but they are both more durable then Addisson in my view. It is obviously hypothesis by me but it seems as far back as the Australian tour last summer that Schmidt had earmarked Addisson.

As it is Conway has come on huge amounts and looks like he could slot into Earls spot in a heartbeat if the latters fitness does not come good, Farrell can do a very effective job on Russia and/or Samoa and has had very good displays in the 6 nations before (I think he got MOM against Wales in 2018 and subsequently broke his arm??). On current form Larmour is probably the lucky one but Larmour has that stupid word X-Factor, he can change a game, something we lacked for in 2015.

Anyway after all that rubbish lol I am happy enough with the selection even if I think Addisson probably would have got the nod if he had a few more weeks to show.

[CiaranIrl]

Matt Williams in today's IT going full bore into JS. Most of it is blah blah but the standout claim he makes is that Toners cards were marked from last January - he was out, and now he is out out.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4005455

Well said Matt

[tingman]

So what are the odds of a Klein injury on Saturday and Dev being called back in?

[wise7]

At last in Matt Williams we have a journalist/pundit not afraid to speak up and articulate what many rugby fans beleive.
''I feel the decision to remove Dev is more a reflection on Joe Schmidt. Joe appears tired and weary of the battle. His time is coming to end and for me, that time cannot come quickly enough. Joe has been a great coach, but his decisions are indicative of a regime out of touch with the team and the people.
This year has been a poor one for the national team. This selection only adds to the malaise.''

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Well obviously as it appears that Marmion is a better passer of the ball than McGrath is among those reasons for surprise. 9s pass the ball more than any other player and that has huge influence in how the team plays. So excellent passing is generally considered a crucial central skill of a SH. Excellent is both accurate and fast. “Nippy”-if it goes to ground, behind the receiver or above the head regularly is traditionally not seen as acceptable.

I don’t incidentally think that Luke is that much more advanced in the other elements of play- beyond the central skill of passing. Marmion offers plenty around the field. He’s demonstrated that often enough for Ireland and Connacht; a weaker team than Leinster.

Murray’s pass is adequate in being at least mostly accurate, if slower than optimum. Connery’s pass was the best (with a very good kicking and all round game too)- he’s the real loser at 9. Marmion was somewhere between the McGrath and Murray on overall ability on my judgement- but a better passer than both.

But it may be that you and others have a fellow traveler in Joe- and excellent passing ability is not a key concern in selecting a SH for the squad to challenge for the RWC. I wish them the best.

Very disappointed for Devin and don’t see the logic there either.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone wax lyrical about Marmion's passing. It might be better than Luke's, but it's marginal and he's hardly Aaron Smith. There were times last season when Blade had legitimate claims to be first choice at Connacht, Marmion simply isn't so good that he couldn't be left out.

And I repeat, I'd have picked Marmion, but it's the notion that his omission is a catastrophic mistake that baffles me. You'd swear we were leaving a world class player behind.

[OTT]

At last in Matt Williams we have a journalist/pundit not afraid to speak up and articulate what many rugby fans beleive.
''I feel the decision to remove Dev is more a reflection on Joe Schmidt. Joe appears tired and weary of the battle. His time is coming to end and for me, that time cannot come quickly enough. Joe has been a great coach, but his decisions are indicative of a regime out of touch with the team and the people.
This year has been a poor one for the national team. This selection only adds to the malaise.''

Do many believe this?

I think Joe Schmidt wants to win the world cup and he believes that Jean Kleyn is needed to do this. The easy decision was Dev, it is what most of us the fans would have went with. He hardly decided to alienate himself because he wants to fail.

Ireland winning a world cup is a monumental ask, setting up straw man argument before the tournament starts for why we will fail ie the best and most successful coach we have ever had does not care anymore is a lot easier. Absolute nonsense all the same.

[domhnallj]

At last in Matt Williams we have a journalist/pundit not afraid to speak up and articulate what many rugby fans beleive.
''I feel the decision to remove Dev is more a reflection on Joe Schmidt. Joe appears tired and weary of the battle. His time is coming to end and for me, that time cannot come quickly enough. Joe has been a great coach, but his decisions are indicative of a regime out of touch with the team and the people.
This year has been a poor one for the national team. This selection only adds to the malaise.''

Those sorts of ad hominem attacks on JS and the management are not helpful. I'd be more interested in understanding why the decision was made for Toner to be booted into the knackers yard as early as last January (allegedly). No rationale or real detail in the piece as far as I can see.

[wixfjord]

Do many believe this?

I think Joe Schmidt wants to win the world cup and he believes that Jean Kleyn is needed to do this. The easy decision was Dev, it is what most of us the fans would have went with. He hardly decided to alienate himself because he wants to fail.

Ireland winning a world cup is a monumental ask, setting up straw man argument before the tournament starts for why we will fail ie the best and most successful coach we have ever had does not care anymore is a lot easier. Absolute nonsense all the same.

Got it in one.

I've disliked Matt Williams and his unique brand of smug contrarianism and matey banter for quite a while.

But this piece really takes the cake. Purely an attempt to both put the knife into Schmidt and try to make himself 'relevant' for media gigs during the WC.

Of course in fairness not many know more about tanking as an international head coach than him.

Mattie was praising the All Blacks for their 'ruthlessness' in selection just a few days ago. Funny that innit?

[Blueberry]

Like the Matt Williams article or not the decision not to bring Toner is bizarre. Unless there is something untoward which we ain't being told about it's an appalling decision purely on a playing ability basis. (Forget all the project player discussions).

Just because it's Schmidt he isn't above criticism and I might point out this is not the first 'odd call' he's made - the Henshaw to fullback decision was bonkers, his persistence with a finished Rory Best is odd and his continued use of Angry Face and Stand up in the back row are serious issues too.

Perhaps he will be proven right and Kleyn plays a blinder and the lineout is a non-issue etc etc and if so fair play but I think it's a huge risk. Toner if nothing else gave us an ability to shore-up our line-out. It's not an option now and I don't understand the decision at all.

If we start a quarter final is his first row pair now Ryan and Hendo with Kleyn on the bench - if so this decision makes even less sense. Toner brings something no other second row we have does and it's been a vital part of Leinster and Irish rugby now for sometime.

[Peg Leg]

At last in Matt Williams we have a journalist/pundit not afraid to speak up and articulate what many rugby fans beleive.
''I feel the decision to remove Dev is more a reflection on Joe Schmidt. Joe appears tired and weary of the battle. His time is coming to end and for me, that time cannot come quickly enough. Joe has been a great coach, but his decisions are indicative of a regime out of touch with the team and the people.
This year has been a poor one for the national team. This selection only adds to the malaise.''

Those sorts of ad hominem attacks on JS and the management are not helpful. I'd be more interested in understanding why the decision was made for Toner to be booted into the knackers yard as early as last January (allegedly). No rationale or real detail in the piece as far as I can see.

Mercury was in retrograde, IIRC

[Hippo]

Like the Matt Williams article or not the decision not to bring Toner is bizarre. Unless there is something untoward which we ain't being told about it's an appalling decision purely on a playing ability basis. (Forget all the project player discussions).

Just because it's Schmidt he isn't above criticism and I might point out this is not the first 'odd call' he's made - the Henshaw to fullback decision was bonkers, his persistence with a finished Rory Best is odd and his continued use of Angry Face and Stand up in the back row are serious issues too.

Perhaps he will be proven right and Kleyn plays a blinder and the lineout is a non-issue etc etc and if so fair play but I think it's a huge risk. Toner if nothing else gave us an ability to shore-up our line-out. It's not an option now and I don't understand the decision at all.

If we start a quarter final is his first row pair now Ryan and Hendo with Kleyn on the bench - if so this decision makes even less sense. Toner brings something no other second row we have does and it's been a vital part of Leinster and Irish rugby now for sometime.

All of the above.

[Oldschool]

Feel really sorry for Toner.
Tough call by JS on a couple of other selections too.
However things are getting out of hand.
It's one thing for the local press and the local punters to express an opinion.
Throw in even the foreign press too, given it's the RWC.
However Pichot needs a kick up the hole.
Ireland and JS would be well advised to ignore him and not give him any oxygen.
Ireland and JS would also be best advised to not get involved in redirection.
The dye is cast, it's almost time to move on and get behind Joe, our coaches and our squad.
Thank god we have a match at the weekend.
The distraction will be welcome.
C'mon Ireland.

[Experimental]

Totally agree Oldschool, Pichot is just trying his best to stir the pot, If I was him, i'd be far more concerned on how to lure foreign talent into Argentina within the current rules. We need to leave the selection thing behind now and get behind the squad that is going. On the possible South Africa meeting, I dont see what all the doom and gloom is about, we mopped the floor with a very similar south africa not that long ago, theres no reason we wont do the same again. The South Africa talk should stop tho, we need to give Scotland, Japan, Samoa and Russia the respect they deserve, we are not thru the group yet. Time to grow a pair again and beat Wales in Dublin. COYBIG