Ireland 6Ns 2020

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Twist
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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Twist »

Conan is out for the Six Nations.

CJ at 6, Deegan at 8 is worth a look if you ask me (which you implicitly do by reading a forum)

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Oldschool »

Twist wrote:Conan is out for the Six Nations.

CJ at 6, Deegan at 8 is worth a look if you ask me (which you implicitly do by reading a forum)
6 is without doubt CJ's best position.
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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by tomthefan »

backrower8 wrote:
tomthefan wrote:D Sheehan at hooker. Who he?
Dan Sheehan. Academy player. Playing Trinity 1sts last 2 seasons. Aged 21 (September), 1.91m/ 6ft 3 // 110kg/ 17 stone 5lbs. Joint-top try scorer (7) for Leinster-A so far this season .

8 months younger, 3 inches taller and a stone heavier than Kelleher. I am not saying he is better, but he is probably in the same class.
Thanks backrower8
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ronk
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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by ronk »

backrower8 wrote:
ronk wrote:
backrower8 wrote:I think this team is close to what I would like to see in 2020 6N, however Lowe isn't eligible until the Autumn.

I think we should cut Johnny completely (Rob too) but he is in the first year of a 2 year central contract...how did that happen?

I agree with moving Porter back to Loose, our need is greater there.

Murray, POM and possibly Henderson should be dropped and required to play their way back to form.

Most of all Stockdale should be dropped, sure he wasn't given much good ball this tournament, but without the ball he is a total amateur in his approach...far too laid back and does not appearing to be learning well on the job. He enabled two tries yesterday with bad reads.

2023 Team

Porter D Sheehan Furlong
Baird Ryan
Leavy Deegan Doris

McGrath H. Byrne
Lowe Henshaw Ringrose Stockdale
Carberry
I agree Lowe isn't eligible. Thats about it.
Put a team up and show us what you think and how strongly you disagree.
Sexton is world player of the year and has a contract to take him through the Lions. There’s no need to cut him to develop anyone. We don’t play well without him, why put Farrell under more pressure and waste one of the top paid stars.

Rob is playing well too. I’d sooner give Earls a few bench runs and promote Larmour than ditch Kearney, but I’d go with form when the time comes.

Why put your 2nd choice tight head to be 3rd (4th with McGrath) or worse choice loosehead. Milne has looked decent so far and could progress rapidly.

Murray has a while before the 6n. He’ll probably hit form and may be needed depending on what Farrell wants. None of the alternatives look world class right now. POM will be a tactical call but with Conan and Leavy injured (& SOB) we don’t have huge pressure in the backrow. That might change for Deegan etc., but it shouldn’t be automatic and we are replacing a leader in Best.

Drop Henderson for who? Toner? Klein? Holland?

Stockdale can defend but he was exposed a few times, so was Ringrose and he is as smart a defender as we have. Short of picking Zebo there isn’t much you could do at left wing in the short term and Lowe is available in a year if Stockdale disappoints in the 6n.

In 2007 there was a load of young players who’d been blocked. Joe rushed all the young talent through a year ago or more to avoid a repeat. Anyone who bolts has to develop. There was very little significant that could have been changed in selection.

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by tomthefan »

About that suggested 2023 team

Leinster 13
Munster 1
Ulster 1
Connacht 0

Do we believe Leinster are realistic World Cup contenders? :lol:
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Twist
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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Twist »

tomthefan wrote:About that suggested 2023 team

Leinster 13
Munster 1
Ulster 1
Connacht 0

Do we believe Leinster are realistic World Cup contenders? :lol:
There's some really promising young players down in Dixieland just now. I expect Craig Casey to be Ireland's first choice 9 at some point in his career, maybe even by 2023. John Hodnett looks like he could be a 7 in the style of Hamish Watson (they're actually the exact same height and weight, not that that's hugely important). I already mentioned Kenyan Knox on this thread who could be a scrummaging monster, but I think Thomas Ahern is a prospect too. He's a 6'7" 18st lock and he's only 19 so could get taller still

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by betty swallocks »

And over West Gavin Thornbury and Ultan Dillane will contend, with Paul Boyle at 6/8, Caolin Blade at 9, and Tom Farrell at centre.

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by tomthefan »

G. Cummiskey also suggests a greater focus on pillaging GAA talent.
Players in the local rugby clubs up and down the country might be an easier pool of untapped talent
to prioritise.
So few make it that it's almost like kids who join Naas RFC or wherever are by definition less talented than
the average boy who takes up rugby while at school in Clongowes.
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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Twist »

A lot of players get their start at Naas actually, but most of them end up going to rugby playing secondary schools too. I know with 100% certainty that in the past players' parents have been advised that they'd be overlooked if they didn't. I should stress that this was a long time ago.

Anyway, off the top of my head the following players from the pro-era started in Naas

Geordan Murphy
Jamie Heaslip
Billy Dardis
Rowan Osborne
James Tracy
Craig Ronaldson
Fionn Carr
Sam Coughlan-Murray
Tadhg Beirne
Adam Byrne - the only one who didn't go to a fee paying school, and that's interesting because he came through Naas CBS who are making great strides in rugby after not having a programme at all for years. I'd say there are other schools like that dotted around the country, serving areas with a big interest in rugby and potential sources of players if given some support.

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by tomthefan »

Picking Naas was a bad choice clearly! :oops:
Twist you're like some kind of human rugby encyclopaedia, damn you!
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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by tomthefan »

Twist wrote:I'd say there are other schools like that dotted around the country, serving areas with a big interest in rugby and potential sources of players if given some support.
Someone else was pointing out that if we're ever to have the ball handling skills of the the New Zealanders, we need to be focusing on kids under 12, maybe tag rugby in primary schools?
Be a great way to get into potentially every parish in the country
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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by dropkick »

Twist wrote:
tomthefan wrote:About that suggested 2023 team

Leinster 13
Munster 1
Ulster 1
Connacht 0

Do we believe Leinster are realistic World Cup contenders? :lol:
There's some really promising young players down in Dixieland just now. I expect Craig Casey to be Ireland's first choice 9 at some point in his career, maybe even by 2023. John Hodnett looks like he could be a 7 in the style of Hamish Watson (they're actually the exact same height and weight, not that that's hugely important). I already mentioned Kenyan Knox on this thread who could be a scrummaging monster, but I think Thomas Ahern is a prospect too. He's a 6'7" 18st lock and he's only 19 so could get taller still

+ Wycherley (as a 6), Shane Daly, James and Sean French, Jack O'Sullivan, Jake Flannery etc. Not all will be Ireland internationals but I wouldn't rule any of those out yet.


Watching the Ireland U20s this year we had Casey feeding Byrne with quick, fast ball and he fed the backline which was small but it was cutting through every team. Hawkshaw and Sean French were real xfactor players who threw some offloads the ABs would be proud of and Flannery was a creative, second playmaker at fullback.


Sure they were defensively poorish but the coaches went for the best attack and got rewarded. They could have picked a bigger side with less talent to match France and England but if they did it's doubtful they'd have won the GrandSlam.


Fortune favours the brave in rugby. Glasgow and Connacht were bottom of the Celtic league, playing wet weather rugby all year round. They change their styles to an attack heavy approach and both win the pro12 within a few seasons. Scarlets won the league the season they were the best attacking team.


The penny has dropped in Munster that after so long without a trophy and so many semi final defeats that maybe it's the outdated style of play that's the problem. Larkham is already making a big difference which will be good for Ireland as well as Munster. All the provinces are now moving towards playing a better brand of rugby which means ALL the players are getting more used to it. So I'm fairly optimistic despite the poor world cup.


I think we need a change of attitude imo. A bit more Irish style aggression combined with a willingness to take chances (offloads etc) and concentrate mainly on attack rather than stopping the opposition. It might result in more penalties given away and more mistakes but overall it should make us a tougher opposition. We are good at the basics, now it's time to move in and make skill more valued than physicality. Just change the balance a bit.

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Oldschool »

dropkick wrote:
Twist wrote:
tomthefan wrote:About that suggested 2023 team

Leinster 13
Munster 1
Ulster 1
Connacht 0

Do we believe Leinster are realistic World Cup contenders? :lol:
There's some really promising young players down in Dixieland just now. I expect Craig Casey to be Ireland's first choice 9 at some point in his career, maybe even by 2023. John Hodnett looks like he could be a 7 in the style of Hamish Watson (they're actually the exact same height and weight, not that that's hugely important). I already mentioned Kenyan Knox on this thread who could be a scrummaging monster, but I think Thomas Ahern is a prospect too. He's a 6'7" 18st lock and he's only 19 so could get taller still

+ Wycherley (as a 6), Shane Daly, James and Sean French, Jack O'Sullivan, Jake Flannery etc. Not all will be Ireland internationals but I wouldn't rule any of those out yet.


Watching the Ireland U20s this year we had Casey feeding Byrne with quick, fast ball and he fed the backline which was small but it was cutting through every team. Hawkshaw and Sean French were real xfactor players who threw some offloads the ABs would be proud of and Flannery was a creative, second playmaker at fullback.


Sure they were defensively poorish but the coaches went for the best attack and got rewarded. They could have picked a bigger side with less talent to match France and England but if they did it's doubtful they'd have won the GrandSlam.


Fortune favours the brave in rugby. Glasgow and Connacht were bottom of the Celtic league, playing wet weather rugby all year round. They change their styles to an attack heavy approach and both win the pro12 within a few seasons. Scarlets won the league the season they were the best attacking team.


The penny has dropped in Munster that after so long without a trophy and so many semi final defeats that maybe it's the outdated style of play that's the problem. Larkham is already making a big difference which will be good for Ireland as well as Munster. All the provinces are now moving towards playing a better brand of rugby which means ALL the players are getting more used to it. So I'm fairly optimistic despite the poor world cup.


I think we need a change of attitude imo. A bit more Irish style aggression combined with a willingness to take chances (offloads etc) and concentrate mainly on attack rather than stopping the opposition. It might result in more penalties given away and more mistakes but overall it should make us a tougher opposition. We are good at the basics, now it's time to move in and make skill more valued than physicality. Just change the balance a bit.
Physicality is not an either/or.
You simply won't beat teams like NZ and England unless you have a pack that can get parity with them.
Even NZ need at least 40% possession to beat any of the top teams.
Jones has recognised that England need a more expensive game to win the RWC but it hasn't been at the expense of a still very physical pack.
In summary Physicality and Skill are not mutually exclusive and indeed are both equally necessary for success.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by dropkick »

Oldschool wrote:
dropkick wrote:
+ Wycherley (as a 6), Shane Daly, James and Sean French, Jack O'Sullivan, Jake Flannery etc. Not all will be Ireland internationals but I wouldn't rule any of those out yet.


Watching the Ireland U20s this year we had Casey feeding Byrne with quick, fast ball and he fed the backline which was small but it was cutting through every team. Hawkshaw and Sean French were real xfactor players who threw some offloads the ABs would be proud of and Flannery was a creative, second playmaker at fullback.


Sure they were defensively poorish but the coaches went for the best attack and got rewarded. They could have picked a bigger side with less talent to match France and England but if they did it's doubtful they'd have won the GrandSlam.


Fortune favours the brave in rugby. Glasgow and Connacht were bottom of the Celtic league, playing wet weather rugby all year round. They change their styles to an attack heavy approach and both win the pro12 within a few seasons. Scarlets won the league the season they were the best attacking team.


The penny has dropped in Munster that after so long without a trophy and so many semi final defeats that maybe it's the outdated style of play that's the problem. Larkham is already making a big difference which will be good for Ireland as well as Munster. All the provinces are now moving towards playing a better brand of rugby which means ALL the players are getting more used to it. So I'm fairly optimistic despite the poor world cup.


I think we need a change of attitude imo. A bit more Irish style aggression combined with a willingness to take chances (offloads etc) and concentrate mainly on attack rather than stopping the opposition. It might result in more penalties given away and more mistakes but overall it should make us a tougher opposition. We are good at the basics, now it's time to move in and make skill more valued than physicality. Just change the balance a bit.
Physicality is not an either/or.
You simply won't beat teams like NZ and England unless you have a pack that can get parity with them.
Even NZ need at least 40% possession to beat any of the top teams.
Jones has recognised that England need a more expensive game to win the RWC but it hasn't been at the expense of a still very physical pack.
In summary Physicality and Skill are not mutually exclusive and indeed are both equally necessary for success.
It doesnt have to be an either/or but in reality youve certain players to pick and you can either go for more physical players or more technical players. It all have to be balanced but i would like to see the balance more towards more skilled players. Doesnt mean you should stick Carbery and Carty in as centers but maybe a Tom Farrell as example. Sacrifice defensive strength for attacking strength.


A simplier way of saying it is horses for courses (styles).

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Ruckedtobits »

There has rarely been a huge amount of physical difference between a NZ 1st Squad and an Irish 1st Squad over the past 12-15 years. England and SA Ahave generally had the physically biggwst teams with France sometimes matching them.

The real difference is physicality, or winning collisions. Historically Samoa and Tonga won collisions against NH teams. NZ won collisions against the Lions, often with players of Tongan, Samoan or Fijian heritage. Wales win collisions against most teams. Ireland did for almost 3 Season but stopped doing so in 20q9.

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Oldschool »

Ruckedtobits wrote:There has rarely been a huge amount of physical difference between a NZ 1st Squad and an Irish 1st Squad over the past 12-15 years. England and SA Ahave generally had the physically biggwst teams with France sometimes matching them.

The real difference is physicality, or winning collisions. Historically Samoa and Tonga won collisions against NH teams. NZ won collisions against the Lions, often with players of Tongan, Samoan or Fijian heritage. Wales win collisions against most teams. Ireland did for almost 3 Season but stopped doing so in 20q9.
Ireland are ahead of the curve.
Collision Avoidance is the future.
Players in the future will wear airbags under their jerseys. Probably gel bags initially but as suitable miniaturisation becomes available a full blown airbag. If an airbag activates an automatic time out will be signalled and play will stop, pending review.
Added to that players will be fitted with ABS tech that will be designed to reduce the speed of impact.
Proximity sensors may also have a role to play.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by backrower8 »

Ruckedtobits wrote:There has rarely been a huge amount of physical difference between a NZ 1st Squad and an Irish 1st Squad over the past 12-15 years. England and SA Ahave generally had the physically biggwst teams with France sometimes matching them.

The real difference is physicality, or winning collisions. Historically Samoa and Tonga won collisions against NH teams. NZ won collisions against the Lions, often with players of Tongan, Samoan or Fijian heritage. Wales win collisions against most teams. Ireland did for almost 3 Season but stopped doing so in 20q9.
How do you square your claim on the lack of physical differences between IRL-NZL squads in the last 12-15 yrs with your next statement that NZL have been more physical than Lions teams - which are more powerful than Irish teams?

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by neiliog93 »

If anything, we have had physically bigger or at least equal packs compared to New Zealand for the last 10 years. They are significantly more skilful, faster, possibly fitter, and have more Polynesians, which never hurts.

In the 2018 game, our pack was 906 kg, theirs was 899 kg. In the 2016 game in Chicago, our pack was 917 kg, theirs was 893 kg.

Even in the 2000-06 (and 2012) days of Ireland struggling in the scrum, size wasn't the problem - John Hayes was 6'4" 128 kg, Tony Buckley 6'5" 138 kg, Tom Court 6'3" 122 kg, Corrigan 6'2" 118 kg, etc. The former duo were legitimately some of the biggest men around professional rugby at the time. Stewart Maguire was 6'5" and 135 kg and hardly played a game in pro rugby, Jamie Hagan at 6'3" and 126 kg didn't do too well either. Technique, athleticism, speed, fitness etc. all play a big role too. In general, the media (especially Cummiskey) perpetuate this inferiority complex-based idea that we're somehow genetically smaller than most other teams, but that's not the case (neither I am trying to argue we're the biggest).
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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Oldschool »

Our pack against NZ in the QF was less than 900 kg.
The NZ pack was heavier than 900kg.
Seem to remember that there was a conscious effort to lean down our pack too.
Hansen on the other hand beefed up his pack to counter our forward advantage.
However the real problem was our backs.
Our pack got very little backup from our backs.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Ireland 6Ns 2020

Post by Pilotman123 »

tomthefan wrote:
Twist wrote:I'd say there are other schools like that dotted around the country, serving areas with a big interest in rugby and potential sources of players if given some support.
Someone else was pointing out that if we're ever to have the ball handling skills of the the New Zealanders, we need to be focusing on kids under 12, maybe tag rugby in primary schools?
Be a great way to get into potentially every parish in the country
St Michael’s college primary school play a game of tip most mornings before school organized by the teachers, maybe that’s one of the reasons they’re very good and skillful when it comes to Junior Cup and why they produce professionals. They live and breath rugby in that school, even when I’m walking in Tesco Merrion, you always see a Michael’s person with a rugby ball in their hand, they play before school, during lunch and after school. You would usually see them playing a game of tip or practicing there passing and kicking in their uniform on the front 4G pitch any time they get a chance to.

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