Richie McCaw

[TerenureJim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YyXTwe6 ... re=related

I dunno man, all he says is "Was it the correct ball?"

AR says "Yes."

Pretty much a fait accompli then. If you were Kaps and weren't sure of which ball was used, wouldn't you then ask your AR too?

I hear you that Kaps is in charge, so ultimately must take the blame, but there's no doubt he was not served well by his subordinate.

I don't think anyone disputes that the linesman was a pleb but Kaps made his decision without listening to Drico who identified hiself as captain and he said he would talk to and then just blew the whistle in his face. Also when the ball went out of play way back from where the lineout was taken shouldn't Kaps have been watching the play/ball and, albeit from a distance, observed that whether or not it was the same ball it was taken back into play much further up the line then where the ball ended after the kick and with a different Welsh player to the player who followed the ball out.

While you can argue about decisions affecting the outcome of a game this one by definition did seeing as the Welsh won by 6.

In saying this I used to be a Kaplan fan, he was quite a balanced ref but this was just too big a mistake to keep him at the top level.

[Xanthippe]

I don't get these Paddy conspiracies. If he was an NZRU mole trying to give the ABs a leg up, wouldn't the IRB have removed him by now? How are people on the internet so much more enlightened regarding O'Brien and his true motives, and his actual EMPLOYERS are so clueless as to not see it?

You really don't get the whole conspiracy thing do you?

Nobody ever suggested that the IRB were ignorant of, or blind to, Paddy O'Brien's attempts to give New Zealand a leg up - in fact the suggestion would be more along the lines that they are complicit in the attempts to ensure New Zealand are the dominant force in World Rugby.

[blues_fan]

I don't think anyone disputes that the linesman was a pleb but Kaps made his decision without listening to Drico who identified hiself as captain and he said he would talk to and then just blew the whistle in his face. Also when the ball went out of play way back from where the lineout was taken shouldn't Kaps have been watching the play/ball and, albeit from a distance, observed that whether or not it was the same ball it was taken back into play much further up the line then where the ball ended after the kick and with a different Welsh player to the player who followed the ball out.

While you can argue about decisions affecting the outcome of a game this one by definition did seeing as the Welsh won by 6.

In saying this I used to be a Kaplan fan, he was quite a balanced ref but this was just too big a mistake to keep him at the top level.

How is listening to a player going to help? That would be the first time in the history of the game that a players' opinion had trumped an ARs. I seriously doubt the IRB is going to send out a memo attempting to mitigate this problem, urging referees to canvas the opinion of the players/captain when they are not sure of a decision. That would be ridiculous!

I think Kaps made a small mistake, that was horribly magnified into an enormous one by the AR, which sadly, as you point out, cost Ireland dearly.

You really don't get the whole conspiracy thing do you?

Nobody ever suggested that the IRB were ignorant of, or blind to, Paddy O'Brien's attempts to give New Zealand a leg up - in fact the suggestion would be more along the lines that they are complicit in the attempts to ensure New Zealand are the dominant force in World Rugby.

So you are telling me the only way to reply to my objection, is to further enlarge the conspiracy to encompass the whole IRB now? So then explain why it is only the internet posters who can see this and why every other Union isn't in active revolt against the IRB/NZRU nexus, for perpetuating such an unfair system? Will you not have to enlarge the conspiracy even further? Won't it get to a point where the conspiracy is so further enlarged, that only a few hardy souls such as yourselves are the only ones not involved? Don't you think by that time, a better and simpler explanation may in fact be more accurate?

[Dave Cahill]

So you are telling me the only way to reply to my objection, is to further enlarge the conspiracy to encompass the whole IRB now? So then explain why it is only the internet posters who can see this and why every other Union isn't in active revolt against the IRB/NZRU nexus, for perpetuating such an unfair system? Will you not have to enlarge the conspiracy even further? Won't it get to a point where the conspiracy is so further enlarged, that only a few hardy souls such as yourselves are the only ones not involved? Don't you think by that time, a better and simpler explanation may in fact be more accurate?

Nah, it makes far more sense to believe that everybody at an official level in every International Board member in the world is involved in a conspiracy to create a regulatory environment that will suit the very small not particularly well off market that is New Zealand than it does to come to the conclusion that Richie McCaw and his team mates are actually quite good.

[combatlogo]

Don't even get me started on the decision to let them host the RWC this year...

[StrangeButBlue]

While you can argue about decisions affecting the outcome of a game this one by definition did seeing as the Welsh won by 6.

Have to disagree with that point. Especially in Rugby a good team will play to the scoreline, We had plenty of time to change the outcome after the try was awarded and we still lost by 6 points.

[Danthefan]

Kaplan had previous on a similiar quick throw incident. He also cut across Allen and basically led with his questioning. He's in charge of the team of three, he's responsible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YyXTwe6 ... re=related

I dunno man, all he says is "Was it the correct ball?"

AR says "Yes."

Pretty much a fait accompli then. If you were Kaps and weren't sure of which ball was used, wouldn't you then ask your AR too?

I hear you that Kaps is in charge, so ultimately must take the blame, but there's no doubt he was not served well by his subordinate.

I agree with you, the assistant is responsible for that try. The ref has to take the word of the TJs and he was given very bad information.

[combatlogo]

Wrong. Allen was trying to convey a proper line-out had been formed (it hadn't), Kaplan cuts him off...Allen should have said the ball used was irrelevant as it wasn't a quick throw. Both f%~ked up but Kaplan is top dog, he's responsible.

[Donny B.]

Wrong. Allen was trying to convey a proper line-out had been formed (it hadn't), Kaplan cuts him off...Allen should have said the ball used was irrelevant as it wasn't a quick throw. Both f%~ked up but Kaplan is top dog, he's responsible.

It's a rarity but I agree with CL. He was very quick to give the try and barely spoke to Drico. He should have known by the reaction of the Irish players that something was up and if he'd just taken a bit more time to clarify everything with Allen, he could have avoided making the biggest mistake of his career. Kaplan's generally not the worst ref but his arrogance took over in this case.

[blues_fan]

It's a rarity but I agree with CL. He was very quick to give the try and barely spoke to Drico. He should have known by the reaction of the Irish players that something was up and if he'd just taken a bit more time to clarify everything with Allen, he could have avoided making the biggest mistake of his career. Kaplan's generally not the worst ref but his arrogance took over in this case.

Ireland vs. All Blacks, same thing happens, do you want the ref asking for McCaw's opinion? Player reactions are irrelevant to a referee.

[Donny B.]

It's a rarity but I agree with CL. He was very quick to give the try and barely spoke to Drico. He should have known by the reaction of the Irish players that something was up and if he'd just taken a bit more time to clarify everything with Allen, he could have avoided making the biggest mistake of his career. Kaplan's generally not the worst ref but his arrogance took over in this case.

Ireland vs. All Blacks, same thing happens, do you want the ref asking for McCaw's opinion? Player reactions are irrelevant to a referee.

And if the All Blacks had reacted the same way as Ireland players had, do you think he would have summarily dismissed their concerns as he did with O'Driscoll? Would he hell!! There was clearly something up, which he could have clarified with a little more patience and questioning. Instead his arrogance made him make the biggest mistake of his career.

[blues_fan]

And if the All Blacks had reacted the same way as Ireland players had, do you think he would have summarily dismissed their concerns as he did with O'Driscoll? Would he hell!! There was clearly something up, which he could have clarified with a little more patience and questioning. Instead his arrogance made him make the biggest mistake of his career.

Err.. Yes? He would have.

Law 6.A.6 REFEREE CONSULTING WITH OTHERS
Apart from ARs, the timekeeper and the video ref:
(d) The referee must not consult with any other persons.

Kaps was simply following the laws of the game.

Anyway, what happens if he goes to BOD, gets his opinion, is it only fair to then go to the Welsh captain, who is likely to give a contrary one? Who is he to trust? No, I'm sorry but this 'ask the players' line of reasoning is ridiculous. A referee must ignore the players and use the only tools he has which he KNOWS are impartial. His own two eyes, the video ref and his ARs.

[Donny B.]

And if the All Blacks had reacted the same way as Ireland players had, do you think he would have summarily dismissed their concerns as he did with O'Driscoll? Would he hell!! There was clearly something up, which he could have clarified with a little more patience and questioning. Instead his arrogance made him make the biggest mistake of his career.

Err.. Yes? He would have.

Law 6.A.6 REFEREE CONSULTING WITH OTHERS
Apart from ARs, the timekeeper and the video ref:
(d) The referee must not consult with any other persons.

Kaps was simply following the laws of the game.

Anyway, what happens if he goes to BOD, gets his opinion, is it only fair to then go to the Welsh captain, who is likely to give a contrary one? Who is he to trust? No, I'm sorry but this 'ask the players' line of reasoning is ridiculous. A referee must ignore the players and use the only tools he has which he KNOWS are impartial. His own two eyes, the video ref and his ARs.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse at this stage. It's not a question of asking the captain what their "opinion" is. When a captain approaches with a query, most referees at least listen to them. It happens all the time at all levels of the game. It's the difference between knowing the laws and knowing how the game actually works. Or are you saying Richie McCaw is in breech of the laws every time he approaches a ref to speak to them?

[blues_fan]

I think you're being deliberately obtuse at this stage. It's not a question of asking the captain what their "opinion" is. When a captain approaches with a query, most referees at least listen to them. It happens all the time at all levels of the game. It's the difference between knowing the laws and knowing how the game actually works. Or are you saying Richie McCaw is in breech of the laws every time he approaches a ref to speak to them?

That's when a ref clarifies his decision to the captain AFTER a decision is made, not consults with or includes the captain in the decision making process, which is what you are expecting Kaps to do are you not? It's fine for Kaps once he's decided on the try to go to BOD and justify his decision for x and y reasons(which as you point out happens every game), but as the laws state the ref is not to consult with anyone bar his subordinates while making a decision, as is the case here.

Also, think about it, what could BOD possibly say to Kaps, that would make him disregard the advice he had received from the AR?

[Donny B.]

I think you're being deliberately obtuse at this stage. It's not a question of asking the captain what their "opinion" is. When a captain approaches with a query, most referees at least listen to them. It happens all the time at all levels of the game. It's the difference between knowing the laws and knowing how the game actually works. Or are you saying Richie McCaw is in breech of the laws every time he approaches a ref to speak to them?

That's when a ref clarifies his decision to the captain AFTER a decision is made, not consults with or includes the captain in the decision making process, which is what you are expecting Kaps to do are you not? It's fine for Kaps once he's decided on the try to go to BOD and justify his decision for x and y reasons(which as you point out happens every game), but as the laws state the ref is not to consult with anyone bar his subordinates while making a decision, as is the case here.

Also, think about it, what could BOD possibly say to Kaps, that would make him disregard the advice he had received from the AR?

1. "With the ball clearly kicked into the stands, you can't use another ball to take a quick throw" - Kaplan just asked if it was the correct ball to the under pressure and clueless Allan. In fairness, he wasn't to know that Allan didn't know the rules but seeing as Kaplan had a similar controversey before in Super Rugby, he could well have clarified his question to be sure.

2. "Two Irish players already in the lineout. Surely this means it's formed and a quick thrown can't be taken" - Kaplan was right there and should have spotted this himself

3. "The hooker had a foot on the field when he threw it in" - Again, something Kaplan should have spotted himself

If he'd listened for just a couple of seconds to what O'Driscoll was saying he could have clarified the situation with Allan. Instead he just told him to stand away from him for a second and then gave the try anyway.

Here's an example of more sensible refereeing. In our HC semi-final against Toulouse for the Jamie Heaslip try, Nigel Pearson originally ruled that he hadn't made it over and was going back to award a penalty. Leo Cullen could be clearly heard asking "Can you check the video?" To his credit, Pearson did and although many in the stadium hadn't seen it, Heaslip had just made it over for the try. Through parking his ego and actually listening to a captain, Pearson ensured the correct decision was made, which should be the priority for all referees!

[ronk]

It was a mistake, these things happen, nobody's perfect. He wasn't paying attention (during a stoppage) and missed it. The foot in play thing is rarely called and is the remit of the touch judge.

I don't get why people don't blame the Welsh for cheating rather than the ref for failing to catch them.

[mikey]

It was a mistake, these things happen, nobody's perfect. He wasn't paying attention (during a stoppage) and missed it. The foot in play thing is rarely called and is the remit of the touch judge.

I don't get why people don't blame the Welsh for cheating rather than the ref for failing to catch them.

Quite so, both the hooker and receiver know the laws of the game - it was all rather a mess, including our non existent defense who were caught out by cheating welsh and cr@p officials. It did cost us the game, but there was time for us to still win the game but we failed to, and whilst it was a turning point in the game, we still could have rectified it by scoring more...!

[Donny B.]

It was a mistake, these things happen, nobody's perfect. He wasn't paying attention (during a stoppage) and missed it. The foot in play thing is rarely called and is the remit of the touch judge.

I don't get why people don't blame the Welsh for cheating rather than the ref for failing to catch them.

Quite so, both the hooker and receiver know the laws of the game - it was all rather a mess, including our non existent defense who were caught out by cheating welsh and cr@p officials. It did cost us the game, but there was time for us to still win the game but we failed to, and whilst it was a turning point in the game, we still could have rectified it by scoring more...!

Well just ask Paddy Wallace!!

In fairness our defence had relaxed because they knew the ball had gone into the crowd and that a quick throw couldn't be taken. Unfortunately, they knew the laws better than the ref and his dipsh*t touch judge. A lesson to be learned I suppose, never trust the officials to be competent.

[blues_fan]

1. "With the ball clearly kicked into the stands, you can't use another ball to take a quick throw" - Kaplan just asked if it was the correct ball to the under pressure and clueless Allan. In fairness, he wasn't to know that Allan didn't know the rules but seeing as Kaplan had a similar controversey before in Super Rugby, he could well have clarified his question to be sure.

2. "Two Irish players already in the lineout. Surely this means it's formed and a quick thrown can't be taken" - Kaplan was right there and should have spotted this himself

3. "The hooker had a foot on the field when he threw it in" - Again, something Kaplan should have spotted himself

This would be consulting with someone other than the referee's subordinates and would be against the laws of the game. Also, it contradicts what his AR and his own two eyes have told him. How would it look if he'd taken BOD's advice, but instead of being correct it was wrong, as could so often be the case? Your reasoning erodes the point of a referee. They are the sole judge of fact, and are to be seen as impartial. Taking advice from the least impartial people on the field(players) goes against these two principles, which is why the IRB has specifically outlawed such things. None of those things you mention would or should change Kaplan's decision. I'm sure he's well aware of the rules and would have blown his whistle if he thought the hookers feet were over the line(I don't think points 2 & 3 are as clear cut as you make them out to be) etc. If the referee has to take lessons from the players about the rules, the game is screwed, and we have a soccer-like fiasco every time a decision is being made.

If he'd listened for just a couple of seconds to what O'Driscoll was saying he could have clarified the situation with Allan. Instead he just told him to stand away from him for a second and then gave the try anyway.

Here's an example of more sensible refereeing. In our HC semi-final against Toulouse for the Jamie Heaslip try, Nigel Pearson originally ruled that he hadn't made it over and was going back to award a penalty. Leo Cullen could be clearly heard asking "Can you check the video?" To his credit, Pearson did and although many in the stadium hadn't seen it, Heaslip had just made it over for the try. Through parking his ego and actually listening to a captain, Pearson ensured the correct decision was made, which should be the priority for all referees!

Kaplan didn't have the video ref option. And if Pearson didn't either, he wouldn't be taking advice/opinions/whatever you want to call it, from Cullen or any captain about the decision.

IMO, Kaplan followed the laws of the game correctly. He missed the ball being changed(his only mistake), and when asking his AR for help was badly let down. The argument on how to fix it should then be whether to give the referee more tools, such as greater powers to use the video referee, not whether the referee should seek greater input from the players. In fact, I guarantee you the IRB are solely debating the former, and the latter has not even entered their agenda.

[Donny B.]

IMO, Kaplan followed the laws of the game correctly. He missed the ball being changed(his only mistake), and when asking his AR for help was badly let down.

No he missed the fact that two Irish players being there for a lineout meant a quick lineout should not have been allowed. And that the hooker took the throw while on the field. Look at it again, it was clear as day. How was that "following the laws of the game"?

And once again, it's not a question of asking for the captain's "advice" or "opinion" it's simply a case of listening for a second to what their concerns are rather than just waving them away. You can shite on all you want about how refs cannot consult with captains, but in reality they do it all the time. Again, it's the difference between knowing the laws and knowing how the game actually works.

You can make all the excuses you want for him, Kaplan screwed up badly on this one.