Munster Thread 2012-2013

[munster#1]

I'm getting excited about the coming season, with so much change in coching/support staff, new signing, and youth coming through. I am really looking forward to seeing how kilcoyne, sherry, archer, hayes, nagle, butler, doc jr, pom and stander get on in the pack this season. In the backs i hope to see lots of zebo, jj, barnes, luke od and dineen along with a few suprises.

[the spoofer]

I'm getting excited about the coming season, with so much change in coching/support staff, new signing, and youth coming through. I am really looking forward to seeing how kilcoyne, sherry, archer, hayes, nagle, butler, doc jr, pom and stander get on in the pack this season. In the backs i hope to see lots of zebo, jj, barnes, luke od and dineen along with a few suprises.

Of those I'd rate Kilcoyne, Sherry, POM and JJ.

I havent seen much of Hayes, Nagle, Stander, Luke O'Dea and Dineen.

Archer looks like he has an awful amount of work to do to make it at pro level, Butler and Doc jnr need to seriously up their skill levels and Zebo has speed but is lacking footballing nous. Barnes is a squad player.

[ronk]

du Preez
Sherry
Botha
Ryan
POC
Stander
POM
Coughlan
Murray
O'Gara
Earls
Downey
Laulala
Howlett
Jones

Subs:
Varley
Kilcoyne
Archer
DOC
Ronan
Stringer/Williams
Keatley
Zebo

Bench looks weak, but there's potential.

[tackle-bag]

I'm getting excited about the coming season, with so much change in coching/support staff, new signing, and youth coming through. I am really looking forward to seeing how kilcoyne, sherry, archer, hayes, nagle, butler, doc jr, pom and stander get on in the pack this season. In the backs i hope to see lots of zebo, jj, barnes, luke od and dineen along with a few suprises.

Of those I'd rate Kilcoyne, Sherry, POM and JJ.

I havent seen much of Hayes, Nagle, Stander, Luke O'Dea and Dineen.

Archer looks like he has an awful amount of work to do to make it at pro level, Butler and Doc jnr need to seriously up their skill levels and Zebo has speed but is lacking footballing nous. Barnes is a squad player.

I agree that Kilcoyne, Sherry, POM and JJ all look up to it. To that list, I would add Nagle who has the potential to become a top class international if given sufficient playing time. The Saffers seem to rate Stander very highly so will be interested to see how he develops.

This season is make or break for Archer. Last year, he was at about 30% of the required standard. If there isn't a complete transformation in his scrummaging and carrying, Munster should cut him loose at the end of the year. The provinces need to curb this trend of keeping lads on contracts for years who aren't even up to Pro12 level. The most egregious example ever was Tom Gleeson, who looked the part but was nothing more than a good AIL player. It took Munster more than 6 years to work that out.

[suisse]

Earls definitely back on the wing then, if everyone is fit? I'm sure CL wasn't signed to play in the Pro 12.

if I was a Munster fan, I'd be pretty excited for 2012-13. New coaching team always does that.

[blockhead]

Any news about penney's reaction when Earlsy stood eyeball to eyeball and demanded to play center?

[munster#1]

The best thing with the new coaching team is that noone owns a jersey, every playing has a chance at a fresh start. The most impressive thing about this season will be depth, bar tighthead we have good depth, we could well see a bench with archer, varley, kilcoyne, doc, ronan/doc jr, stringer, jj, laulala, hurley. With archer being the only weak link.

[tones]

The best thing with the new coaching team is that noone owns a jersey, every playing has a chance at a fresh start. The most impressive thing about this season will be depth, bar tighthead we have good depth, we could well see a bench with archer, varley, kilcoyne, doc, ronan/doc jr, stringer, jj, laulala, hurley. With archer being the only weak link.

Agree 100%. But words must be followed by actions....
Think there is depth but no outstanding 1st teamers bar D.Ryan, POC, Earls, Murray to an extent and Howlett if he returns. POM can be added as well at this level.
Alot about this season depends on players highly talked up delivering.

[munster#1]

The best thing with the new coaching team is that noone owns a jersey, every playing has a chance at a fresh start. The most impressive thing about this season will be depth, bar tighthead we have good depth, we could well see a bench with archer, varley, kilcoyne, doc, ronan/doc jr, stringer, jj, laulala, hurley. With archer being the only weak link.

Agree 100%. But words must be followed by actions....
Think there is depth but no outstanding 1st teamers bar D.Ryan, POC, Earls, Murray to an extent and Howlett if he returns. POM can be added as well at this level.
Alot about this season depends on players highly talked up delivering.

you do realise that botha and wian, play for munster, and we've added stander who looks the real deal. How many outstanding players do you believe a team need? How many do you believe leinster have? My count is not that high.

[Darce]

I feel Penney is already starting with one arm behind his back with Foley being forced on him as effectively his number 2.

Too easy for disaffected old skoolers to go over Penney's head if they don't like something he's doing.

They should have either given it to Foley or gone with Penney and a clean slate. Typically, just as with their training base configuration, Munster have fallen between two stools.

Rod, you've got one hell of a job on your hands, mate!

[tones]

The best thing with the new coaching team is that noone owns a jersey, every playing has a chance at a fresh start. The most impressive thing about this season will be depth, bar tighthead we have good depth, we could well see a bench with archer, varley, kilcoyne, doc, ronan/doc jr, stringer, jj, laulala, hurley. With archer being the only weak link.

Agree 100%. But words must be followed by actions....
Think there is depth but no outstanding 1st teamers bar D.Ryan, POC, Earls, Murray to an extent and Howlett if he returns. POM can be added as well at this level.
Alot about this season depends on players highly talked up delivering.

you do realise that botha and wian, play for munster, and we've added stander who looks the real deal. How many outstanding players do you believe a team need? How many do you believe leinster have? My count is not that high.

Sorry forgot about Botha, but you do not have the quality depth in the Front row that we have.
An awful lot of depth you talk about is potential in my opinion, and highly talked up as well.
By outstanding, I mean players of international potential, and we have more of that. If you doubt that (as I'm sure you will) just look at our performance in the Heineken Cup in comparison to yours over the last couple of seasons. Another way to view is that your current pack and for the next couple of years would not hold water against the pack that commanded so much respect over the last 10 years.

[tones]

Going back to the original point about the jersey being up for grabs, there is always that optimism with a new coach.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating though…as always. Penney certainly has the CV and credentials to make it work at Munster but a lot will depend on the eating. How he uses ROG for example will be a key indicator. If he turns out to be a coach who can get a team to perform to greater than the sum of their parts then you're on to a winner…certainly for the next few years.

[tackle-bag]

How many outstanding players do you believe a team need? How many do you believe leinster have? My count is not that high.

Obviously that question is completely a matter of opinion, but my view is that to win the HC you need five world class players in your starting XV, together with ten good internationals. The definitions of "world class" differ widely, but I would suggest that the phrase entails a player who, on his day, is capable of being as effective as the very best players in his position in the world. Applying that test to the Leinster team, I think we satisfy it comfortably:- BOD, Nacewa, Kearney, Heaslip, Sexton, Healy and SOB are all world class. The remainder of our starting XV are all good internationals.

Applying the same test to the current Munster crop, I think there are a maximum of four "world class" players:- POC, Botha, Howlett and ROG (the last two are highly debatable these days). Compare that to the Munster team that won the HC in 2008, which had at least seven properly "world class" competitors: Flanney, Hayes, POC, Wallace, Quinlan, Howlett and ROG.

I genuinely hope that guys like POM, Zebo, Sherry, Murray and Stander develop into truly superb players for Munster and Ireland, but they're unlikely to do so by the end of the forthcoming season.

[janeymac08]

Any news about penney's reaction when Earlsy stood eyeball to eyeball and demanded to play center?

Comes across as the type of guy who wants to hear that coming from the younger players.

Michael Corcoran interview here starts about 10 mins in.
http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rte ... %3A0%3A%3A

Pretty much covers everything here. He has already met with the Ireland management and has a bit of a dig about Leinster signing Brad Thorn!

[West Brit]

How many outstanding players do you believe a team need? How many do you believe leinster have? My count is not that high.

Obviously that question is completely a matter of opinion, but my view is that to win the HC you need five world class players in your starting XV, together with ten good internationals. The definitions of "world class" differ widely, but I would suggest that the phrase entails a player who, on his day, is capable of being as effective as the very best players in his position in the world. Applying that test to the Leinster team, I think we satisfy it comfortably:- BOD, Nacewa, Kearney, Heaslip, Sexton, Healy and SOB are all world class. The remainder of our starting XV are all good internationals.

Applying the same test to the current Munster crop, I think there are a maximum of four "world class" players:- POC, Botha, Howlett and ROG (the last two are highly debatable these days). Compare that to the Munster team that won the HC in 2008, which had at least seven properly "world class" competitors: Flanney, Hayes, POC, Wallace, Quinlan, Howlett and ROG.

Sorry, I think you're overselling things there:

The remainder of our starting XV are all good internationals.

I don't think you can class Ferg and Kev as good internationals. Solid pros - yes. Good internationals - not at the moment.

the Munster team that won the HC in 2008, which had at least seven properly "world class" competitors

I don't think Hayes was ever world class under your definitions, and I don't think ROG ever was either (I can't be bothered getting into that debate with Munster fans - let's just say he was a world class kicker, not a world class fly half).

I certainly don't think the other eight Munster players you didn't name were all "good internationals" either. Ian Dowling was one of them!

We've had Bernard Jackman and Chris Whittaker win Heineken Cups with us as well, who were never good internationals, so I'm not picking on Ian Dowling or starting a debate about ROG. But I really don't think you need five world class players and ten good internationals to win a Heineken Cup. You need some world class players, some good internationals and some good solid pros with very few weak links (hopefully weighted towards the front of that sentence). You also need luck with injuries and you need luck with the draw.

[pete (on eirne)]

The Munster 1st choice team is pretty good and in some positions their second choice is good (zebo, Stringer, DOC) but their depth while there is not strong at all at all. Looks quite poor beyond the first 23 I think.

I like the way Penny seems like he is ready to "somewhat" tear up the old style Munster playbook and wants to stamp HIS game on Munster. Read that in his interview today and was impressed. He really doesn't want to see forwards picking and going , off quick ball, on a dry day on the halfway line.

ROG really needs to up it IMO too. he does have two big centres now so he could stand flatter and while not challenging the gainline he can bring his centres on flatter.

Think it would be a bit rich Penny giving out about Thorn considering he has 5 NIE players (his "Project" has openly said he wants to return to S.Africa)

Best of luck to Munster this season

[tones]

Whats the point of the dig about Brad Thorn? I can see form this forum and PR that the munster fans are creaming themselves about it...but I don't get it.

[tackle-bag]

How many outstanding players do you believe a team need? How many do you believe leinster have? My count is not that high.

Obviously that question is completely a matter of opinion, but my view is that to win the HC you need five world class players in your starting XV, together with ten good internationals. The definitions of "world class" differ widely, but I would suggest that the phrase entails a player who, on his day, is capable of being as effective as the very best players in his position in the world. Applying that test to the Leinster team, I think we satisfy it comfortably:- BOD, Nacewa, Kearney, Heaslip, Sexton, Healy and SOB are all world class. The remainder of our starting XV are all good internationals.

Applying the same test to the current Munster crop, I think there are a maximum of four "world class" players:- POC, Botha, Howlett and ROG (the last two are highly debatable these days). Compare that to the Munster team that won the HC in 2008, which had at least seven properly "world class" competitors: Flanney, Hayes, POC, Wallace, Quinlan, Howlett and ROG.

Sorry, I think you're overselling things there:

The remainder of our starting XV are all good internationals.

I don't think you can class Ferg and Kev as good internationals. Solid pros - yes. Good internationals - not at the moment.

the Munster team that won the HC in 2008, which had at least seven properly "world class" competitors

I don't think Hayes was ever world class under your definitions, and I don't think ROG ever was either (I can't be bothered getting into that debate with Munster fans - let's just say he was a world class kicker, not a world class fly half).

I certainly don't think the other eight Munster players you didn't name were all "good internationals" either. Ian Dowling was one of them!

We've had Bernard Jackman and Chris Whittaker win Heineken Cups with us as well, who were never good internationals, so I'm not picking on Ian Dowling or starting a debate about ROG. But I really don't think you need five world class players and ten good internationals to win a Heineken Cup. You need some world class players, some good internationals and some good solid pros with very few weak links (hopefully weighted towards the front of that sentence). You also need luck with injuries and you need luck with the draw.

You make some good points there, to which I would respond as follows:-

I disagree that Fergus isn't a solid international standard player, but I accept that opinion remains divided on him.
I accept I was probably being a bit generous to the Bull, although he remains the greatest lifter in the history of the game!
I didn't say that the remainder of the 2008 Munster team were international standard, just that they had a much larger number of class players in the first XV.

[ronk]

Whats the point of the dig about Brad Thorn? I can see form this forum and PR that the munster fans are creaming themselves about it...but I don't get it.

Not sure of the wisdom of it. On the one hand it ingratiates himself with the anti-foreign faction, but that's a populist move during his honeymoon. On the other, it seriously weakens his hand of he finds himself in the position of needing urgent reinforcement.

[Oldschool]

Any news about Penney's reaction when earlsy stood eyeball to eyeball and demanded to play center?

The elephant in the corner type of issue every coach has to face at some stage.

But to answer your question!
I'd say it was a bit like the old Tarzan joke.
You know the one.
What did Tarzan say when he saw the elephant coming over the hill wearing sunglasses?
Wait for it - He didn't recognize him! (Well it is still the funny season )

The prequel to that one of course was "What did Tarzan say when he saw the elephant coming over the hill"?
The answer of course being "Here comes the elephant".