Ulster Thread 2012-13

[Dexter]

No way, I'm there!

Me too.. the place will be full anyway. At this stage hoping for Clermont v Leicester I suppose.

[Dexter]

I'm on the truly awful position of rooting for Leicester in that side of the draw as the lesser of three evils. Clermont will murder any of them though and hopefully restore balance to the rugby universe.

Ha yeah just posted the same thing at the same time... and I know what you mean about hoping for Leicester, its weird...

[Donny B.]

Luke Marshall off with his third concussion in three games. Should be stood down for the rest of the season for both Ulster and Ireland. Too big a talent to take risks with.

[fourthirtythree]

Shouldn't have started. Two weeks off is nothing after two concussions in two weeks. Nothing.

As for supporting Leicester it's nice to be able to, I've had lots of great times with their fans and it's so hard to elide the fact that I frickin' hate their team!

[Donny B.]

I'm on the truly awful position of rooting for Leicester in that side of the draw as the lesser of three evils. Clermont will murder any of them though and hopefully restore balance to the rugby universe.

Ha yeah just posted the same thing at the same time... and I know what you mean about hoping for Leicester, its weird...

To be fair, they are at least a proper club. Yes they're cheating, moaning b$&%@#ds and their coach is a knob and some of their online fans are human detrius.....but......anytime we've played them we always had a good laugh with their fans and they can play some good rugby at times unlike the boring showers Sarries and Toulon. So I'm pro-Tigers, until Clermont make sh!t of them in the final anyway....

[hugonaut]

Luke Marshall off with his third concussion in three games. Should be stood down for the rest of the season for both Ulster and Ireland. Too big a talent to take risks with.

Nothing to do with how big a talent he is, it should be the same for anybody.

The Irish team doctors need to take a long hard look at themselves, as does Declan Kidney. The lad was knocked out cold against France and cleared to play the following week – no doubt he 'passed the cognitive test' but that doesn't clear the doctors of what happened the following week, when it was clearly a significant medical risk for him to play ... nor does it clear Declan Kidney, who had the ultimate responsibility to select him or leave him out.

Ulster gave him two matches off [i.e. rested him for three weeks, as used to be protocol] so they were at least looking out for the player. They can't undo the damage that was done on Irish duty though.

[Logorrhea]

of all the c**ts to score the winning try!

True, but imagine what Sivivatu (spelling) will do to him. Could make for an entertaining afternoon sometime in the future.

[Donny B.]

Luke Marshall off with his third concussion in three games. Should be stood down for the rest of the season for both Ulster and Ireland. Too big a talent to take risks with.

Nothing to do with how big a talent he is, it should be the same for anybody.

The Irish team doctors need to take a long hard look at themselves, as does Declan Kidney.

Completely agree. Irish team Docs and Kidney should be ashamed of themselves. Unfortunately I've seen it with coaches at all levels of rugby. If they need a player, they'll persuade him he's "fit" whether he is or not. The Duty of care goes right out the window.

[red49]

The kidney complex continues, if a player is playing poorly its kidneys fault as i read today on the forum re rob kearney,now its all his fault for picking players with concussion. He along with the medical staff certainly have a duty of care but i think the players themselves carry a lot of the blame, players want to play but they should put their hands up and let the medics know they are not right. wasnt it jackman i think who said he put himself up for selection several times even when he had to look back on highlights to remember parts of games. I dont absolve kidney and medics of all fault but players need to think about how they are endangering their own health by not being totally honest.

[fourthirtythree]

Oh come on, you know the culture for a player: you can't let the team down. Also young men are immortal, it's the only reason there are armies and wars. An older head should take that decision out of their hands.
Kidney is part of it. So are the medical staff. But so also are the amateur reviewers who insist that every game must be won and that we must always play our cup final team. That's the biggest problem. It's the one that kidney had that Eddie had. They may have voted themselves out of existence, they just have failed to dematerialise.

[Dexter]

Ulster were woeful for 70 mins, then started doing what they should have done from the beginning. In hindsight the game last week in the RDS was terrible preparation, Leinster had such soft defense last weekend and Saracens the complete opposite today. The whole game seemed to be a bit of a non-event, at times it was hard to believe it was a HC QF. Very anticlimactic.

[domhnallj]

Luke Marshall off with his third concussion in three games. Should be stood down for the rest of the season for both Ulster and Ireland. Too big a talent to take risks with.

Nothing to do with how big a talent he is, it should be the same for anybody.

The Irish team doctors need to take a long hard look at themselves, as does Declan Kidney. The lad was knocked out cold against France and cleared to play the following week – no doubt he 'passed the cognitive test' but that doesn't clear the doctors of what happened the following week, when it was clearly a significant medical risk for him to play ... nor does it clear Declan Kidney, who had the ultimate responsibility to select him or leave him out.

Ulster gave him two matches off [i.e. rested him for three weeks, as used to be protocol] so they were at least looking out for the player. They can't undo the damage that was done on Irish duty though.

Is this cognitive test available for scrutiny?

[Logorrhea]

i think the players themselves carry a lot of the blame, players want to play but they should put their hands up and let the medics know they are not right

Its in their immediate interest to be available for selection. The player cannot be trusted to make the correct decision for the right reasons. Their priorities are totally different. That's the whole point ffs.

[hugonaut]

The kidney complex continues, if a player is playing poorly its kidneys fault as i read today on the forum re rob kearney,now its all his fault for picking players with concussion. He along with the medical staff certainly have a duty of care but i think the players themselves carry a lot of the blame, players want to play but they should put their hands up and let the medics know they are not right. wasnt it jackman i think who said he put himself up for selection several times even when he had to look back on highlights to remember parts of games. I dont absolve kidney and medics of all fault but players need to think about how they are endangering their own health by not being totally honest.

I have no idea what you're moaning about. It is at least partially his fault, which is what I said. He clearly has a case to answer for picking a concussed player, who got concussed again the next week in a very innocuous incident and, even after three weeks off, looks to have been concussed for the third game in a row. The doctors attached to the Irish team have a bigger case to answer, but pretending that Kidney doesn't is a monumental display of putting your head in the sand.

Everybody who knows anything about rugby who saw him lying on the ground for the guts of two minutes in Lansdowne Road knew that he had been concussed, possibly knocked out cold. The situation was discussed before the Italy match on RTE at some length, it was common knowledge.

[rookie]

of all the c**ts to score the winning try! Very disappointed in ulster. Offered nothing in attack. Why couldn't they have played like that last week?

moaning b$&%@#ds and their coach is a knob

You're a master of words.

[red49]

The kidney complex continues, if a player is playing poorly its kidneys fault as i read today on the forum re rob kearney,now its all his fault for picking players with concussion. He along with the medical staff certainly have a duty of care but i think the players themselves carry a lot of the blame, players want to play but they should put their hands up and let the medics know they are not right. wasnt it jackman i think who said he put himself up for selection several times even when he had to look back on highlights to remember parts of games. I dont absolve kidney and medics of all fault but players need to think about how they are endangering their own health by not being totally honest.

I have no idea what you're moaning about. It is at least partially his fault, which is what I said. He clearly has a case to answer for picking a concussed player, who got concussed again the next week in a very innocuous incident and, even after three weeks off, looks to have been concussed for the third game in a row. The doctors attached to the Irish team have a bigger case to answer, but pretending that Kidney doesn't is a monumental display of putting your head in the sand.

Everybody who knows anything about rugby who saw him lying on the ground for the guts of two minutes in Lansdowne Road knew that he had been concussed, possibly knocked out cold. The situation was discussed before the Italy match on RTE at some length, it was common knowledge.

i agree absolutely about players and concussion rule, it is being ignored in a lot of cases. i never said kidney was without fault re your " head in the sand bit" .
question,if you are a coach and your medical staff clear the player to play and the player himself says he is feeling 100% ok, do you the manager make the call yourself to leave the player out?
i have never coached rugby but have coached in another sport and was always afraid when players got knocks to head,i actually left players out next week and got angry looks from parents who said , ah for god sake hes fine, nothing wrong with him. my point was that professional players also have a duty of care for their own health along with the manager and medics.

[ceemec]

This is all based on the assumption that he was deemed medically fit to play against Italy and passed his tests which I 100% believe he was not.

As I posted before the Rome match, for him to make that Italy game, he would have had to pass every stage of the graduated return to play protocol at it's earliest possible point. One day is the absolute minimum for moving to the next stage. That would only possibly be applicable in cases where the player had a mild concussion and wasn't impacted much. Marshall was utterly out of it coming off against France. He should have had 3 weeks off straight away.

The bloke has just turned 22. He has had 3 significant concussions in a short period of time. He has also received another heavy blow which broke his jaw a couple of seasons ago. He shouldn't have any contact work until August. Even at that, I fear the damage may already be done.

[meinster]

This is all based on the assumption that he was deemed medically fit to play against Italy and passed his tests which I 100% believe he was not.

You believe he was not deemed medically fit (Kidney selected against medical advice), or that he was deemed medically fit but wasn't really (Irish medical team leaving themselves wide open)? Either way, that's pretty damning, and disturbing if true.

As for the earlier points that Kidney shouldn't have selected him .. if he was "available", then it would be down to a moral judgement; one that no other coach would normally make, and at a time when Marshall was badly needed. It would have been the source of a lot of controversy, especially if he was deemed fit. So I can't really blame Kidney for that; more the laws being too relaxed and an almost universal culture. Kidney has some responsibility, but he can only go by what the medics say (with, hopefully, a lot less influence by what the player says!).

So, if the medics are passing a player as fit, when they shouldn't be, is that not cause for extreme concern? Most don't think so (if the medics are). Most affected players, most unaffected players, most retirees, most backroom staff, etc. Also, would the medics not be leaving themselves wide open to litigation?

So, who's at fault:
1) Marshall for just being too wreckless (OK, not seriously, but maybe there's a bit of this!)
2) Medical team for declaring Marshall fit
3) Kidney for selecting him (I assume he'd only do that if declared medically fit; is there a suggestion otherwise?)
4) The IRB laws

Gut feeling is 4), but there seems to be some knowledgeable posters (like ceemec before me) hinting at 2), and some Kidney-bashers favouring 3) without offering much supporting opinion/evidence.

EDIT: Just to add that either way, where ever the blame lies, this is an area that needs to be cleaned up.
EDIT2: The aforementioned Graduated Return to Play guidelines from IRB are here.

[ceemec]

I think it's a combination of all the factors, meinster. I'm convinced the sand bagging of the cognitive tests and the turning a blind eye approach is still common but it needs to be stamped out from the top down. There was a very interesting article recently on it citing arguments put forward by Barry O'Driscoll (father to Gary, uncle to Brian) recently where he discussed the failure of the IRB to lead the way in the sport in relation to concussions.

Here we go: http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sun ... -1-2868497

[ceemec]

Moving back to the game itself, I thought Ulster's weaknesses were exposed by a team set up perfectly do deal with them. Saracens have a very aggressive, in your face defence that doesn't give teams room to breathe. They mess up the breakdown, get their set piece right and take their opportunities when they come. They're made for cup rugby.

I've thought for most of the season that, whilst Ulster are very entertaining to watch, they lack something up front in terms of the breakdown. Teams can get on top of them there and spoil the party. I though Leinster had the better of them at the breakdown in our clashes but we were completely undone by Ulster's superiority at the set piece in Ravenhill and the back line in the RDS. However, last night we saw a side that had their set piece fairly right (scrum struggled but they absolutely took apart Ulster's line out) and their back line was organised and aggressive due in no small part to having someone who was able to organise things and make big decisions in Brad Barritt.

Once Ulster's back line wasn't firing and their wide impact was stemmed, they seemed void of ideas. Trimble and Gilroy looked dangerous from deep but that was more due to individual talent than an attacking pattern.

I think last week's effort may have taken more out of them than we realised. I think Muller said the last 10 minutes of the RDS game was the biggest physical effort this season. That's going to drain guys and make them require another day recovery time especially when someone like Chris Henry, who is the heartbeat of their breakdown, is returning from a spell out.

Lastly, credit to Saracens. We don't like them but they're bloody minded and efficient. A few guys really stepped up last night. Chris Ashton was very good, I thought. He took his try superbly but his defence was strong and he was counter rucking like a maniac at times too. He gave it everything physically. Borthwick and Brown were brutally efficient up front. They didn't do anything flashy but turned the screw on Ulster at the line out, maul and rucks.