Ulster Thread 2012-13

[artaneboy]

More ammunition for the turnips who say the league doesnt matter and for Prem saying we dont try in it

The only reason the AP is constantly having pops at the rabo is because our top teams trash their top teams most of the time. The AP is hyped up to be something better than it is. Every year the Heineken cup exposes the truth. So they need excuses, "the rabo teams don't have relegation", "the french don't have a salary cap".

you forgot we waste our money on Southern Hemisphere journeyman

I thought the standard in the two Rabo semis was at least on a par and arguably above that of the AP- and I'm including Scarlets' performance in that analysis. Nothing to be embarrassed about to my mind.

[simonokeeffe]

my jokey post is getting out of hand
thought saying Scarlets being a rabble reinforced Munster fans saying league is meaningless would be taken tongue in cheek

[ceemec]

The only reason the AP is constantly having pops at the rabo is because our top teams trash their top teams most of the time. The AP is hyped up to be something better than it is. Every year the Heineken cup exposes the truth. So they need excuses, "the rabo teams don't have relegation", "the french don't have a salary cap".

Given how the league panned out, they've a point. The Pro12 side who went furthest in the HEC didn't bother their arses in the Pro12 and had a fairly embarrassing season where they only won half their games. The likes of the Scarlets rolling over and having 40 put on them at home by Treviso and then their Lions not bothering against Ulster is another indictment.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle but the Pro12 is treated horrendously by some team in terms of mentality and effort. Cardiff have 4 Lions in their starting side along with guys like Bradley Davies, Pratchell and Copeland but finished 9th in the league with little or no effort shown throughout.

If I was following the AP, I'd sneer at some of the effort put in by the Pro12 sides too. Not the top 3 sides but the rest have all been guilty of throwing in the towel repeatedly this season.

[blockhead]

The only reason the AP is constantly having pops at the rabo is because our top teams trash their top teams most of the time. The AP is hyped up to be something better than it is. Every year the Heineken cup exposes the truth. So they need excuses, "the rabo teams don't have relegation", "the french don't have a salary cap".

Given how the league panned out, they've a point. The Pro12 side who went furthest in the HEC didn't bother their arses in the Pro12 and had a fairly embarrassing season where they only won half their games. The likes of the Scarlets rolling over and having 40 put on them at home by Treviso and then their Lions not bothering against Ulster is another indictment.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle but the Pro12 is treated horrendously by some team in terms of mentality and effort. Cardiff have 4 Lions in their starting side along with guys like Bradley Davies, Pratchell and Copeland but finished 9th in the league with little or no effort shown throughout.

If I was following the AP, I'd sneer at some of the effort put in by the Pro12 sides too. Not the top 3 sides but the rest have all been guilty of throwing in the towel repeatedly this season.

My point was that the AP teams and their journo friends current infatuation with sneering at the the Rabo is a direct consequence of the Rabo teams success. The more we succeed the more they will complain. Consider it a compliment. It's like in soccer, the amount of ABUs is directly proportional to the amount of success ManUtd have. As regards Munsters Heino success, it happens from time to time that a weak but plucky team can progress far in a competition against all the odds. Look at Edinburgh last year or Wigan in the FA cup at the weekend. Sport throws up these fairytale scenarios every now and then.

[simonokeeffe]

Welsh regions suffering with salary cap as much as anything else
cardiff especially had to let a lot of guys retire like Rush, Tito etc just because they couldnt afford to keep them

[rooster]

Welsh regions suffering with salary cap as much as anything else
cardiff especially had to let a lot of guys retire like Rush, Tito etc just because they couldnt afford to keep them

Rush was done anyway, Ulster had him contracted then he decided to stay at Cardiff so they had to compensate then actually did us a favour as he was done by the end of the season anyway.

[simonokeeffe]

Welsh regions suffering with salary cap as much as anything else
cardiff especially had to let a lot of guys retire like Rush, Tito etc just because they couldnt afford to keep them

Rush was done anyway, Ulster had him contracted then he decided to stay at Cardiff so they had to compensate then actually did us a favour as he was done by the end of the season anyway.

Rush played on for a year after he reneged on Ulster

definitely though M Williams and others werent offered extensions purely over money

[ceemec]

My point was that the AP teams and their journo friends current infatuation with sneering at the the Rabo is a direct consequence of the Rabo teams success. The more we succeed the more they will complain. Consider it a compliment. It's like in soccer, the amount of ABUs is directly proportional to the amount of success ManUtd have. As regards Munsters Heino success, it happens from time to time that a weak but plucky team can progress far in a competition against all the odds. Look at Edinburgh last year or Wigan in the FA cup at the weekend. Sport throws up these fairytale scenarios every now and then.

The argument is cyclical though. The AP sides will make the argument that the Pro12 teams have success in Europe because they structure their season around it. It's hard to argue against it also given Irish provinces aren't even allowed play their test players for a large chunk of the Pro12 season but they're available for the HEC. Heaslip, for example, has played 9/23 Pro12 games thus far but 8 games in Europe.

Munster are probably the worst offenders. Not particularly in light of selections (every side rotates including those in the AP and T14) but in mind set. Their most famous ever player arguably is on the record as saying he finds it difficult to motivate himself for the Pro12. They went out against Glasgow and had 50 put on them before beating an AP side that looked wrecked after a heavy domestic run including going to the final of the LV Cup.

Yes, the comments have come thick and fast on the back of the success of the Pro12 sides and there wasn't much talk 6 years ago but they do have a point in some ways. In others, the French have much more of an advantage with the whopping squads they possess and bottomless cheque books.

[darkside lighteside]

Their national team too. They win the grand slam, go on a huge losing streak and then win the championship with 4 straight wins.

It's like they've learnt to become a good team for 2 1/2 months at a time.

At the risk of going off topic, I am a huge sceptic with regards to the Welsh national side - for me a major barometer of Kidney's incompetence as national coach lay in his poor record against Wales, when we saw the exact same players who were routinely second best at club level versus Irish players suddenly out-perform. I think Welsh players are widely and routinely over-rated as a result of the 6 nations wins - IMO 6N championships are rarely the five most challenging consecutive matches a NH side plays, and in the last 4-5 years Wales have had a blessed life, with Ireland under Kidney, and France under Lievremont and, apparently, St. Andre, varying degrees of dysfunctional..

Under Kidney, I think I'm right in saying that Ireland won just 50% of their games - by the end even the most reluctant critic of Kidney had conceded that this wasn't good enough. Incredibly, though, over the same period of time, Wales under Gatland had won an even more lamentable 45% of their matches!!!

The Welsh players have benefited - the truth is very few national (UK) media commentators watch much more rugby than 6 nations, world cups, and the biggest club games, so they don't see Welsh 'superstars' being shown up when they play at club level, and a halo effect means that their occasional bursts of wins against mediocre/misfiring opposition in the 6 nations, resulting in championship medals, outweighs the 8 match loss sequence (for which I think even Kidney would have been sacked) or the complete absence of achievement or footprint at HC level with their clubs. Check out the Welsh sides that were handily beaten at home by Argentina and Samoa in November - Halfpenny, North, Cuthbert, Roberts, Phillips, Faletau, Tipuric, Warburton, Evans, Jones, Jenkins, Hibbard all featured, that's 12 Lions right there.. I think that the happiest ones of all after the 2013 6 nations were the Aussies...

[rooster]

Welsh regions suffering with salary cap as much as anything else
cardiff especially had to let a lot of guys retire like Rush, Tito etc just because they couldnt afford to keep them

Rush was done anyway, Ulster had him contracted then he decided to stay at Cardiff so they had to compensate then actually did us a favour as he was done by the end of the season anyway.

Rush played on for a year after he reneged on Ulster

definitely though M Williams and others werent offered extensions purely over money

He did indeed and he was knackered at that stage, he got a 2 year contract from Cardiff when he backed out on the Ulster deal.

[rooster]

Luke Marshall signed on a 3 year Ulster deal today.

[simonokeeffe]

great news, glad hes being rested for summer tour too

although am finding it curious that young guys that broke firmly into Irish squad like Zebo and Marshall signing 3 year deals instead of 2 re central contracts down the road unless theres a facility to upgrade them

[Peg Leg]

great news, glad hes being rested for summer tour too

although am finding it curious that young guys that broke firmly into Irish squad like Zebo and Marshall signing 3 year deals instead of 2 re central contracts down the road unless theres a facility to upgrade them

Perhaps post Sexton-Gate, the players would prefer to negotiate with a management group that appreciate talent.

[rooster]

great news, glad hes being rested for summer tour too

although am finding it curious that young guys that broke firmly into Irish squad like Zebo and Marshall signing 3 year deals instead of 2 re central contracts down the road unless theres a facility to upgrade them

Perhaps post Sexton-Gate, the players would prefer to negotiate with a management group that appreciate talent.

Not so sure it works that way, think if IRFU take a notion they will be giving a central contract then it is out of provinces hands.

[Peg Leg]

great news, glad hes being rested for summer tour too

although am finding it curious that young guys that broke firmly into Irish squad like Zebo and Marshall signing 3 year deals instead of 2 re central contracts down the road unless theres a facility to upgrade them

Perhaps post Sexton-Gate, the players would prefer to negotiate with a management group that appreciate talent.

Not so sure it works that way, think if IRFU take a notion they will be giving a central contract then it is out of provinces hands.

Exactly, so tie the young lads down for as long as possible.
Realistically Marshall could have looked for a one yr contract if he was vying for a cc (nailed on in my book), but I'd say that many players will go for longer provincial contracts rather than entering the public sh!t fight arena aka- cc negotiations table.

[ronk]

Perhaps post Sexton-Gate, the players would prefer to negotiate with a management group that appreciate talent.

Not so sure it works that way, think if IRFU take a notion they will be giving a central contract then it is out of provinces hands.

Exactly, so tie the young lads down for as long as possible.
Realistically Marshall could have looked for a one yr contract if he was vying for a cc (nailed on in my book), but I'd say that many players will go for longer provincial contracts rather than entering the public sh!t fight arena aka- cc negotiations table.

Yeah DC called it well a while back. Younger players appear to prefer their chances without the restrictive central contracts increasingly.

[simonokeeffe]

maybe Zebo aware how handsome he is so wants to control/profit off of his image rights

not sure if that applies to Marshall

[hugonaut]

Ulster have signed Irish-qualified, New Zealand-born tighthead Bronson Ross [27] from Coventry: http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11493.php

[Bosco]

In unrelated news

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Strange signing. They already have Afoa/a replacement for him if they find one, Fitzpatrick, Lutton, Macklin, McCallister is meant to be moving across, and Court can play there too.

Hope he hasn't been signed with a view to Afoa leaving and the others guys moving up in the queue.