Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[simonokeeffe]

nice stat I have found is that based on most recent home games, Leinster based in a city of 1.8 million (metro area) based in a province of 2.5m got 17k in for last home game
3 of the 4 London PRL teams Sarries, LI, Wasps got 19k combined for their last home games based in a city of 15 million (metro area)

so for all the PRL talk of they know marketing, what fans want, know how to market a competition, it doesnt add up time and again

[kermischocolate]

You forgot Jim Hamiltons in France also.

Sorry I wasn't trying to name every single Scottish player based outwith Scotland.

Great nit-picking while ignoring the point that was made (seems to be a theme in this whole story saga).

Can you please give specific examples of the sweeping statement you have made that Scotland in particular has problems with players being released from French and English squads.

[TheBear]

nice stat I have found is that based on most recent home games, Leinster based in a city of 1.8 million (metro area) based in a province of 2.5m got 17k in for last home game
3 of the 4 London PRL teams Sarries, LI, Wasps got 19k combined for their last home games based in a city of 15 million (metro area)

so for all the PRL talk of they know marketing, what fans want, know how to market a competition, it doesnt add up time and again

I'm pretty sure, though, that they mean TV (and advertising) markets, irrespective of match attendances, when talking about how much more money they bring to the table. I think they underestimate the importance to advertisers of having a cross-border tournament, which allows them to reach multiple markets in one go.

[Scrum 5]

It's a relief to see some of the comments on the articles in the British newspaper websites.

I can't help but feel the pr battle is being won by the PRL. All the main British newspapers seem to just rehash a media release by the PRL with no analysis of the content.

All very admirable by the Unions not to do their negotiations in public but can't help but feel they're reacting to events rather than forming them.

[Hacker G]

nice stat I have found is that based on most recent home games, Leinster based in a city of 1.8 million (metro area) based in a province of 2.5m got 17k in for last home game
3 of the 4 London PRL teams Sarries, LI, Wasps got 19k combined for their last home games based in a city of 15 million (metro area)

so for all the PRL talk of they know marketing, what fans want, know how to market a competition, it doesnt add up time and again

In fairness though, if you were to look at the relative stats for Leicester, Gloucester or Exeter, you'd probably get a very different picture.

I'm clearly too lazy to actually check that though but no doubt someone else will!

[simonokeeffe]

@Hacker and Bear

part of my point is club (PRL) rugby is doing dismally in London, only one or two minor teams north of the midlands so in terms of numbers of people who give a monkeys you are looking at large towns in the midlands and the west country & SW (generally places where rugby bigger than soccer almost). even biggest teams in championship Bristol, Pirates, etc same neck of the woods. of 7 London teams in championship/prem 3 are exiles teams
attendences stagnant at best, viewing figures on TV are not great at all based on this season on BT (anyone have viewing figures for league games on sky last year?)

so in terms of tv markets the national team is a big deal, the lions is a big deal and my supposition an Anglo French (meaningful) game is a big deal, as is an English team against euro giants like Munster or Leinster. dare I say it Sky inflated the market too. but 2 English clubs is not a big deal especially compared to meaningful cross border games based on existing ie 6nations rivalries

theres as many people in Ireland alone watching Rabo games as watching PRL in UK

[TerenureJim]

I'm sure you could see some very interesting numbers of UK resident expats and indeed regular Ulster pats (see what I did there) who follow the provinces rather than PRL clubs. Provinces might have more fans in England than any one PRL team. Attendance numbers when we play in the UK would seem to back this up anecdotally. Whether the PRL like it or not Leinster and Munster are huge draws, Ulster not far off and Connacht growing. Any competition not involving us is at a serious marketing disadvantage.

The All Blacks are the biggest draw at RWC time does anyone think they should get less money for participation because they have one of the smallest populations and internal markets of any of the major nations?

[simonokeeffe]

I'm sure you could see some very interesting numbers of UK resident expats and indeed regular Ulster pats (see what I did there) who follow the provinces rather than PRL clubs. Provinces might have more fans in England than any one PRL team. Attendance numbers when we play in the UK would seem to back this up anecdotally. Whether the PRL like it or not Leinster and Munster are huge draws, Ulster not far off and Connacht growing. Any competition not involving us is at a serious marketing disadvantage.

The All Blacks are the biggest draw at RWC time does anyone think they should get less money for participation because they have one of the smallest populations and internal markets of any of the major nations?

Saffers trying to get prissy over that but yeah its quite close to SA saying NZ should get less money as smallest population by far (Saffers even have promotion and relegation )

[suisse]

The other classic red herring is "the likes of Leinster and Munster rest all their players in league games and only focus on the Heineken cup" ignoring the fact that both sides have actually won the league on numerous occasions!

Not to mention the fact that the French sides have 2 international class squads - the exceptions being Castres (who won the Topm 14) and Montpelier who are turning into a very decent side. If you have one H-Cup team and one League team, you could make the argument that for most of the French sides, their League one is more important - therefore better - and have been resting key players in Europe for years. 6 of one.........

[JB1973]

nice to see cockerill thinking of his country and his players

"The players are contracted to their clubs and the Premiership is their bread and butter," stressed Richard Cockerill, Leicester's director of rugby. "If, hypothetically, they tried to exclude every Premiership player, then they would do well to sell out Twickenham. Try going to the 2015 Rugby World Cup without any players … that would work well, wouldn't it?"

I'm sorry but why would any rugby coach dream of hurting his own nations chances in a world cup and of denying his players a chance to play for their country in a home world cup.

It just shows how selfish and self centred these people in the PRL are how they are quite willing to damage any one else (even their own country) in order to gain power and wealth.


If your a player with international ambitions and your coach is threatening to prevernt you from playing for your country, how would that make you feel?



Will the gutless RFU now comment? or will they let cockerill and co bully them with threats?

[Logorrhea]

It just shows how selfish and self centred these people in the PRL are how they are quite willing to damage any one else (even their own country) in order to gain power and wealth.

Yep, but they are a business, and are primarily motivated by money, as you would expect them to be.

I've no problem with that and if that is their goal then fair enough, but that's also the reason they should not be put in charge.

[TerenureJim]

if the Top 14 clubs refuse to take part in the Heineken Cup, they will look to enter regional teams from outside the LNR umbrella

Now that is a very, very interesting move. French rugby has been suffering at national level due to a lack of exposure of young talent in the TOP 14 as they've brought in more and more established foreign marquee names. Look at their major issues at 10 for instance.

I'd be suprised if one or two (Biaritz, Toulouse etc.) of the Top 14 might break ranks and join in with this regional structure. Yes there's a lot of money on the table for the Top14 TV rights but the clubs don't own the refs or the grounds and there's a lot of local municipal money that suddenly ceases the LNR could be in a very weak position all of a sudden. There's no love lost between the FFR and some of the sugaar daddies (Toulon prime example, financial issues at Stade Francais) perhaps they see this as the chance to regain control.

[Sionnach]

I'm sure you could see some very interesting numbers of UK resident expats and indeed regular Ulster pats (see what I did there) who follow the provinces rather than PRL clubs. Provinces might have more fans in England than any one PRL team.

I'd back this up, albeit anecdotally. I live in London (have for the last 12 years), but am clearly a Leinster supporter. I've never managed to get into the PRL, despite trying to support London Irish as a "second team" for a while - just couldn't bring myself to it! There's a bunch of Irish lads in work, and they're the same with regards to provincial support. There's only one guy I know who's "switched" allegiances to London Irish but he moved to London over 20 years ago so perhaps that's a little different.

When watching Leinster games in the pubs here, I tend to find loads of Irish people living in London there and there were hordes of us travelling up from London to Edinburgh in 2009 on the train. Same went for 2011 in Cardiff.

Maybe we should be the 13 County Army

[tigerburnie]

You forgot Jim Hamiltons in France also.

Sorry I wasn't trying to name every single Scottish player based outwith Scotland.

Great nit-picking while ignoring the point that was made (seems to be a theme in this whole story saga).

Can you please give specific examples of the sweeping statement you have made that Scotland in particular has problems with players being released from French and English squads.

Both Frank Hadden and Andy Robinson complained publicly about access to players, quoting that England had better access to their players than Scotland did. Of course the clubs had an agreement with the RFU under the EPS system that gave them this added access in return for control over the clubs managing themselves and in particular, for things like the Heineken Cup and television deals for club matches.

[TerenureJim]

Both Frank Hadden and Andy Robinson complained publicly about access to players, quoting that England had better access to their players than Scotland did. Of course the clubs had an agreement with the RFU under the EPS system that gave them this added access in return for control over the clubs managing themselves and in particular, for things like the Heineken Cup and television deals for club matches.

Which is one of the reasons we need to see two professional sides in Scotland because the national team will wither on the vine in terms of competitiveness if all the players are in England/France and can't be rested/rotated/released for camp based upon a national strategy and/or national coaches can't have access. Richie Gray not being at Glasgow/Edinburgh doesn't do the national side any favours.

The RFU can bring pressure to bare on the PRL clubs to release players but what can the IRFU, SRU, WRU, FIR do? Should we start paying the PRL clubs for increased player access at international time? That'd be an odd situation if we had to fund your clubs to access our players.

We complain about player rest/rotation here at Leinster but at the end of the day the national team must come first and to date we've had great luck in terms of player well being, career length and international results. It has also meant that we've had to try out new guys like Sean O'Brien (worked well) Ian Madigan (not bad at all), Rob Kearney etc. etc. when the lads who were front line were rested or in national camp. Yes we had a dip last season with national results but there were other factors at play there. Compare where we are now nationally to where we were in the late 90's and it's a seachange.

[mikerob]

I'm sure you could see some very interesting numbers of UK resident expats and indeed regular Ulster pats (see what I did there) who follow the provinces rather than PRL clubs. Provinces might have more fans in England than any one PRL team.

I'd back this up, albeit anecdotally. I live in London (have for the last 12 years), but am clearly a Leinster supporter. I've never managed to get into the PRL, despite trying to support London Irish as a "second team" for a while - just couldn't bring myself to it! There's a bunch of Irish lads in work, and they're the same with regards to provincial support. There's only one guy I know who's "switched" allegiances to London Irish but he moved to London over 20 years ago so perhaps that's a little different.

When watching Leinster games in the pubs here, I tend to find loads of Irish people living in London there and there were hordes of us travelling up from London to Edinburgh in 2009 on the train. Same went for 2011 in Cardiff.

Maybe we should be the 13 County Army

I'd also agree with this from the perspective of an Ulster exile in London. I think London Irish has support from the older exiles who were around when they were based in Sunbury and the club was a genuine social centre for Irish exiles in London. But now with a combination of LI moving out to Reading, and younger exiles who have grown up during professional rugby supporting their province, there is no reason to switch allegiances to a less successful rival team with a ground that takes an hour and more to get to.

When Wasps played at Loftus Road I did go and watch some games, not as a Wasps supporter, but in the hope of seeing a good game of rugby. However it only used to take me about 10 minutes to get there, so it was something to do on the spur of the moment if there was nothing else on. The closest AP team to me now is Quins, and that is about 40 minutes away, and I really couldn't be bothered...

[simonokeeffe]

nice to see cockerill thinking of his country and his players

"The players are contracted to their clubs and the Premiership is their bread and butter," stressed Richard Cockerill, Leicester's director of rugby. "If, hypothetically, they tried to exclude every Premiership player, then they would do well to sell out Twickenham. Try going to the 2015 Rugby World Cup without any players … that would work well, wouldn't it?"

I'm sorry but why would any rugby coach dream of hurting his own nations chances in a world cup and of denying his players a chance to play for their country in a home world cup.

It just shows how selfish and self centred these people in the PRL are how they are quite willing to damage any one else (even their own country) in order to gain power and wealth.


If your a player with international ambitions and your coach is threatening to prevernt you from playing for your country, how would that make you feel?



Will the gutless RFU now comment? or will they let cockerill and co bully them with threats?

hes always been a mouthpiece

I commented on the article on the belfast telegraph site but they would only let me write c***erill

[tigerburnie]

The RFU can bring pressure to bare on the PRL clubs to release players but what can the IRFU, SRU, WRU, FIR do? Should we start paying the PRL clubs for increased player access at international time? That'd be an odd situation if we had to fund your clubs to access our players.

We complain about player rest/rotation here at Leinster but at the end of the day the national team must come first and to date we've had great luck in terms of player well being, career length and international results. It has also meant that we've had to try out new guys like Sean O'Brien (worked well) Ian Madigan (not bad at all), Rob Kearney etc. etc. when the lads who were front line were rested or in national camp. Yes we had a dip last season with national results but there were other factors at play there. Compare where we are now nationally to where we were in the late 90's and it's a seachange.

That's one of the key differences in the way our two respective sides are run, under the european law, people can go and work where they want, including sportsmen/women if not under a contract. So if an individual goes to work abroad, he/she accepts the constraints that puts on you. I work in Scotland and boy do I have to put up with a lot.................. but it goes with the job.
So if the IRFU don't compensate Toulon for access to an Irish player, why should Toulon, who pay the guys wages to put bums on seats and points on the scoreboard, say "here you go, have him when you want. Would a player not make a choice, for example there's a well known Scottish prop who won't play on a Sunday, so his contract with his club and his country reflect that, Sexton could have said," Ireland have first dibs for me", but I think he might not have got the same offer.

[Lamb of BOD]

Sexton could have said," Ireland have first dibs for me", but I think he might not have got the same offer.

I may well be mistaken, but I seem to remember hearing that Sexton had negotiated a clause in his contract allowing him to be released an extra week early for international duty, so he could link up with extended training squads.

[TheBear]

Sexton could have said," Ireland have first dibs for me", but I think he might not have got the same offer.

I may well be mistaken, but I seem to remember hearing that Sexton had negotiated a clause in his contract allowing him to be released an extra week early for international duty, so he could link up with extended training squads.

You beat me to it!