Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[fourthirtythree]

Oh heavens! Now you're getting squeamish about money when all along you were preaching that we had no choice but to beg the English to let us enter their tournament because they were our financial betters and we had to know our place, real-world economics etc etc.

The FFR paid out of their own pocket to try to secure the future of the game for the whole of Europe and not just let it be privatised by two countries.

Personally I think they're the heroes of the whole thing, they've pretty much saved our asses, but somehow you find their actions contemptible and on par with the English clubs who wanted to wipe out professional rugby as we know it in this country.

Truly you have a curious way of looking at the world.

Very true. Perhaps you could enlighten us on just why the FFR is despicable? They adjusted the funding they pay to their clubs to prevent a fracture in European rugby which threatened to destroy the commercial viability of the game in many countries and ultimately the international game in Europe.

[jimbobjoe]

I'm not quite sure how the PRL works or what exactly it is that they own so this may be a very stupid question...

Can an English club cease membership with the PRL and still play in the English premiership? There must be at least a couple of clubs unhappy with this whole scenario and would still want to play in European competition.

[Flash Gordon]

He's under instruction from PRL power brokers I'd say. As for the proposal, this isn't done yet but even if we get to a place where we come to a settlement, triumphalist humiliation is not the way to go. English clubs are a critical component of what makes the tournament great and if you add to the resentment that already exists it'll just fester (Treaty of Versailles anybody?)

As for the French and their requirement for English clubs to play, they also think that the tournament has diminished value without them. The FFR may have forced through their view but some of the elite French clubs are not happy and while they may be obliged to play in the tournament, they are not obliged to field their strongest teams in which case, the tournament would become farcical.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the PRL did was much more contemptable than the bribery to the clubs that occured in France or the way the Welsh have conducted themselves.

Oh heavens! Now you're getting squeamish about money when all along you were preaching that we had no choice but to beg the English to let us enter their tournament because they were our financial betters and we had to know our place, real-world economics etc etc.

The FFR paid out of their own pocket to try to secure the future of the game for the whole of Europe and not just let it be privatised by two countries.

Personally I think they're the heroes of the whole thing, they've pretty much saved our asses, but somehow you find their actions contemptible and on par with the English clubs who wanted to wipe out professional rugby as we know it in this country.

Truly you have a curious way of looking at the world.

You're thinking of Mick Dawson mate.

On this, yeah, throwing a 2 million quid bribe to get what you want because the greedy French clubs want even more, real fockin heroes (as you say!). Similarly, these guys won't play unless the English are involved - that's not morality, that's pure economics. They should get a sainthood. Oh and by the way, while all of this has been going on it detracts from the biggest single danger to the tournament which is not governance its the fact that there are clubs in France with astronomical budgets that will make the Celtic challenge the equivalent of Real Madrid vs Bolton Wanderers in the years to come. The IRFU should have been pushing with the other unions two years ago for salary caps and player quotas.

As for what I was saying, I said that I didn't agree with the English approach, that the situation was handled badly by the IRFU and that the English clubs had a point on some issues - automatic qualification, diminishing the quality of the competition by having makey uppy franchises automatically eligible despite having lost every game etc I still think that and by the way, the IRFU have agreed to all of those reforms. That was my point all along.

While we're on the subject of what people said, I believe you said something about standing up for the little man so will you be boycotting the new tournament if the likes of Zebre, Dragons, Connacht etc are focked out?

[tigerburnie]

I'm not quite sure how the PRL works or what exactly it is that they own so this may be a very stupid question...

Can an English club cease membership with the PRL and still play in the English premiership? There must be at least a couple of clubs unhappy with this whole scenario and would still want to play in European competition.

The PRL is made up of executives from the teams that make up the Premier league, a co-operative/union if you like, with McCafferty as an employee in charge of the commercial side of things.

[jimbobjoe]

I'm not quite sure how the PRL works or what exactly it is that they own so this may be a very stupid question...

Can an English club cease membership with the PRL and still play in the English premiership? There must be at least a couple of clubs unhappy with this whole scenario and would still want to play in European competition.

The PRL is made up of executives from the teams that make up the Premier league, a co-operative/union if you like, with McCafferty as an employee in charge of the commercial side of things.

Yes but do they have ownership of the league or does that belong to the RFU? If not, surely the teams that can't give a rat's about BT cash or game ownership can disband or leave the PRL...set up a new/alternative body and play in the Heineken. I'm just spitballing here as I, like anyone else, have no idea how bound the PRL are by the BT deal.

[mikerob]

I'm not quite sure how the PRL works or what exactly it is that they own so this may be a very stupid question...

Can an English club cease membership with the PRL and still play in the English premiership? There must be at least a couple of clubs unhappy with this whole scenario and would still want to play in European competition.

PRL ownership is complicated as there are 3 classes of shares to do with voting, income distribution and "the full members".

I think "B" shares are for voting and these are only for the current premiership.

"A" shares are for income distribution and teams accumulate these every year they are promoted and lose them each year they are relegated. So relegated teams can continue to get money and TB's Leicester, for example, would get about 2.5 times the money of a newly promoted team like London Welsh last year.

The "P" shares were for the original founders, and they are a bit secretive about these, but they also mean these teams get some money, and they can be bought from a team that has been relegated for more than a certain time. So Exeter bought "P" shares from Leeds for £5M but Leeds say they are hanging onto the money so they can buy the shares back if they get promoted.

So there structure is definitely geared to favour the long established clubs over any upstart that dares to get promoted.

I believe PRL owns the rights to the competition called the Premiership, so if a team resigned from PRL, they would need to set up their own competition to play in.

The way the ERC is set-up, the RFU are responsible for nominating teams for ERC competitions but the RFU have delegated this to PRL. I believe the agreement between the RFU and PRL says the RFU won't nominate a team outside of PRL, such as a Championship team.

[mikey]

Having a little look into the structure of PRL - this is their stated objective:

TO PROMOTE AND DEVELOP PROFESSIONAL CLUB RUGBY BY PURSUING THE COLLECTIVE INTERESTS OF SHAREHOLDER CLUBS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE SHAREHOLDERS, AGREEMENT AND IN LINE WITH OTHER JPOLICIES APPROVED BY THEBOARD FROM TIME TO TIME.

All about the shareholders - not about the game....

[Donny B.]

Oh heavens! Now you're getting squeamish about money when all along you were preaching that we had no choice but to beg the English to let us enter their tournament because they were our financial betters and we had to know our place, real-world economics etc etc.

The FFR paid out of their own pocket to try to secure the future of the game for the whole of Europe and not just let it be privatised by two countries.

Personally I think they're the heroes of the whole thing, they've pretty much saved our asses, but somehow you find their actions contemptible and on par with the English clubs who wanted to wipe out professional rugby as we know it in this country.

Truly you have a curious way of looking at the world.

You're thinking of Mick Dawson mate.

On this, yeah, throwing a 2 million quid bribe to get what you want because the greedy French clubs want even more, real fockin heroes (as you say!). Similarly, these guys won't play unless the English are involved - that's not morality, that's pure economics. They should get a sainthood. Oh and by the way, while all of this has been going on it detracts from the biggest single danger to the tournament which is not governance its the fact that there are clubs in France with astronomical budgets that will make the Celtic challenge the equivalent of Real Madrid vs Bolton Wanderers in the years to come. The IRFU should have been pushing with the other unions two years ago for salary caps and player quotas.

As for what I was saying, I said that I didn't agree with the English approach, that the situation was handled badly by the IRFU and that the English clubs had a point on some issues - automatic qualification, diminishing the quality of the competition by having makey uppy franchises automatically eligible despite having lost every game etc I still think that and by the way, the IRFU have agreed to all of those reforms. That was my point all along.

While we're on the subject of what people said, I believe you said something about standing up for the little man so will you be boycotting the new tournament if the likes of Zebre, Dragons, Connacht etc are focked out?

Ah you're reaching now Flash. The biggest single danger to the club are the French with their astronomical budgets? They've had these massive budgets for years, yet the tournament has continued to thrive and still be competitive. And you're saying the French won't play until the English are involved, well wake up and smell the coffee, they clearly will.

Personally I still am sad that getting rid of the 24 team format with a bit of national variety and the most exciting pool stages in sport is still a mistake but I suppose there had to be some sort of compromise, the sort of compromise you persistently lambasted the IRFU and the Unions for not making.

Can I assume now that if your beloved English clubs aren't involved, you'll be boycotting the tournament to only watch Wesley? They're playing away to Highfield tomorrow by the way.

[fourthirtythree]

Personally I still am sad that getting rid of the 24 team format with a bit of national variety and the most exciting pool stages in sport is still a mistake but I suppose there had to be some sort of compromise, the sort of compromise you persistently lambasted the IRFU and the Unions for not making.

That compromise - on the insistence of France and England - is a terrible move for the sporting integrity of the competition. It's good for the administrators of the bigger clubs. sh!t for sport.

[Donny B.]

Personally I still am sad that getting rid of the 24 team format with a bit of national variety and the most exciting pool stages in sport is still a mistake but I suppose there had to be some sort of compromise, the sort of compromise you persistently lambasted the IRFU and the Unions for not making.

That compromise - on the insistence of France and England - is a terrible move for the sporting integrity of the competition. It's good for the administrators of the bigger clubs. sh!t for sport.

Indeed the English and French have been successful in damaging the tournament certainly, just not fatally....for now. We're still going to have another season of bullshit and press releases which further damages the sport in the eyes of the public and the sponsors. Thank God for these great businessmen eh?

[artaneboy]

You're thinking of Mick Dawson mate.

On this, yeah, throwing a 2 million quid bribe to get what you want because the greedy French clubs want even more, real fockin heroes (as you say!). Similarly, these guys won't play unless the English are involved - that's not morality, that's pure economics. They should get a sainthood. Oh and by the way, while all of this has been going on it detracts from the biggest single danger to the tournament which is not governance its the fact that there are clubs in France with astronomical budgets that will make the Celtic challenge the equivalent of Real Madrid vs Bolton Wanderers in the years to come. The IRFU should have been pushing with the other unions two years ago for salary caps and player quotas.

As for what I was saying, I said that I didn't agree with the English approach, that the situation was handled badly by the IRFU and that the English clubs had a point on some issues - automatic qualification, diminishing the quality of the competition by having makey uppy franchises automatically eligible despite having lost every game etc I still think that and by the way, the IRFU have agreed to all of those reforms. That was my point all along.

While we're on the subject of what people said, I believe you said something about standing up for the little man so will you be boycotting the new tournament if the likes of Zebre, Dragons, Connacht etc are focked out?

Ah you're reaching now Flash. The biggest single danger to the club are the French with their astronomical budgets? They've had these massive budgets for years, yet the tournament has continued to thrive and still be competitive. And you're saying the French won't play until the English are involved, well wake up and smell the coffee, they clearly will.

Personally I still am sad that getting rid of the 24 team format with a bit of national variety and the most exciting pool stages in sport is still a mistake but I suppose there had to be some sort of compromise, the sort of compromise you persistently lambasted the IRFU and the Unions for not making.

Can I assume now that if your beloved English clubs aren't involved, you'll be boycotting the tournament to only watch Wesley? They're playing away to Highfield tomorrow by the way.

Exactly!! I don't agree that the HC needed reform at all.

I regret the IRFU acquiesced to the changes- but they did for pragmatic reasons of preserving the HC- as the alternative was possibly the FFR not being able to bring the very non-principled LNR with them without these concessions.

And I certainly don't agree that the ERC was inefficient or blundering in the promotion of the competition and the sport. Just the opposite was the case- the BT deal being obviously a massive bribe to wreck the ERC and steal the hijack the competition.

[Scrum 5]

Saracen's Nigel Wray now being reported by the Daily Telegraph as urging his fellow Premiership chairmen to back the boycott of the H-Cup.

Selected Nigel Wray quotes:
“I hope the English clubs stay out" (Does this point to other chairmen warming to coming back?)
"We have had enough of short-term expediency." (Thought that was what you were proposing?)
"As for possibly going back for one season, I can't see the point in us limping back in where there is still no true democracy with the English clubs constantly being outvoted because of the nature of the set up" (Yeah not fair one country can't other ride five others!)
"In the long term, it is inevitable that South African teams will head up here to play" (It's not.)"
"But we cannot sacrifice our principles now" (Principles?)

Boy this Saracens chap does keep going. Reading between the lines it looks that his fellow chairmen may be looking at things differently.

No link as I'm over my ten click monthly limit for the DT now. Shame as there are some sane English based posters there.

[blockhead]

from the indo

29 NOVEMBER 2013

Nigel Wray, the Saracens chairman, insisted on Friday night that there could be no genuine European competition without the English clubs and urged his fellow Premiership chairmen to back the boycott of next year’s Heineken Cup.

The decision of the French clubs on Thursday to side with their federation was a jolt to English ambitions of an Anglo-French alliance but also opened up the possibility that the Premiership contingent might be persuaded back into the mainstream European fold.

Wray poured cold water on that notion.

“I hope the English clubs stay out,” Wray, one of the longest serving figures in the professional game, said.

“We have had enough of short-term expediency. It is time to stick to our guns.

"Frankly, there can be no genuine European competition without the English clubs.

"And I don’t say that in the belief that we are b-----y marvellous but quite simply because there are more of us.

"In the chase for TV and broadband subscriptions, the fact that there are 60 million in England will be the factor that helps determine all this.

“Sky Sports may say that they are happy to back the status quo without us at the moment but the reality is that they will not be in the long run.

"As for possibly going back in for one season, I can’t see the point in us limping back in where there is still no true democracy with the English clubs constantly being outvoted because of the nature of the set-up.”

Wray admitted that the decision of the Top 14 clubs, the Ligue Nationale de Rugby, undermined the English clubs.

“Yes, absolutely so, but we are not going to cave in now and go back to them all cap in hand.

“The French decision was very disappointing, but not entirely unexpected given the legal nature of their relationship with their federation.

"I don’t quite understand how they can be called to heel by their union in such fashion as I would have thought European law entitles you to conduct your business wherever you like.”

The Welsh regions had professed interest in supporting the English clubs but their union last week sided with European Rugby Cup.

There has been a mooted link with South African sides, but even though Saracens have strong South African connections, Wray does not see an English-South African competition in the short term.

“In the long term, it is inevitable that South African teams will head up here to play,” he said.

“Same time zone, same broadcasting market, greater revenues – it all points to that.

"But playing them in the short term doesn’t make sense. There are existing tournaments there.

"I would like to see the Welsh regions in an expanded Aviva Premiership.

“We were so close to getting it all sorted: one vote per league, money split three ways and a Six Nations-type governance.

"But we cannot sacrifice our principles now.”

I would like to see the Rabo and the super14 disbanded......Wray.
Honestly I just cant see why the IRB would not trust such a fine man like Nigel Wray.

[fourthirtythree]

Gosh! He's such fun to parse in close reading but let's just point out, in the middle of all these gems, that his problem with democracy is being outvoted by the vast majorit. Every phrase there is comedy gold in delusional thinking, bullshit bingo, and more than anything else hypocrisy. He's such a comedy villain!

[Donny B.]

Personally I just live with never seeing Saracens in Europe again.....or indeed play rugby again.....well what they pass off as rugby....

So God's speed with your boycott King Nidge and your fight for a true democracy where the English tell everyone else what to do!

[suisse]

Because that's not just what the PRL wanted. They always said it could have sorted a long time if the unions and erc got up off their asses. but it was a huge lie because they've wanted nothing to do with the erc all along.

mmc said in October he wouldn't speak to the mediator because they wanted nothing to do with erc. what an embarrassing u turn.

but the cup needs the English. it'll be diminished greatly if they're not there

For eight of the past nine seasons the winner has come from one of two countries, neither one of them is England.

Sure they'd bulk up the pool phases better but when it comes down to knock-out stages, would a tournament without English teams, be that different from one with them?

Yes, it would be very different and it'd be a poorer one too.

They mightnt win it often but they contribute so much to the overall package. Also they mightnt be very good but at least they turn up unlike a lot of French teams. They look like they wanna be there.

if there is one - and only one - thing I agree with Rees, its that this is a Rabo Cup with some interested and disinterested French clubs. Nothing more.

They were very close to winning it in 2009 and 2011. I hate seeing their teams do well but i'd rather hate them in the Cup than out of the Cup.

[suisse]

I think some format changing was needed. Yeah Sale etc might be sh!t but they had qualify finishing no worse than seventh.

Zebra are created and immediately play HEC rugby. rubbish. There are sides especially in England who are breaking their bolox to qualify. Yeh, again, they might be sh!t and over rated but they will offer a lot more than Zebrs. Edinburgh win 3 of 22 games and qualify. They don't deserve to be there. Rewarding something worse than mediocrity.

6-6-6 with a fairer playoff system for the final two spots would be better. Have one per country and then make Edinburgh qualify. That its guaranteed to them is sh!t.

[fourthirtythree]

But this was never about the qualification. That was their trojan horse. People took them seriously on that, it muddied the waters, their power grab was on.

If this was about sport then they wouldn't have changed it to a 20 team format.

I totally agree that without the English teams it's not a real European competition and that they actually turn up. Look at a team like Exeter who brought a whole lot to the competition (mind you, against that, look at a team like Saracens. What have they brought apart from money?) much more than most French competitors.

Mind you I've said all that right from the beginning.

[Donny B.]

Because that's not just what the PRL wanted. They always said it could have sorted a long time if the unions and erc got up off their asses. but it was a huge lie because they've wanted nothing to do with the erc all along.

mmc said in October he wouldn't speak to the mediator because they wanted nothing to do with erc. what an embarrassing u turn.

but the cup needs the English. it'll be diminished greatly if they're not there

For eight of the past nine seasons the winner has come from one of two countries, neither one of them is England.

Sure they'd bulk up the pool phases better but when it comes down to knock-out stages, would a tournament without English teams, be that different from one with them?

Yes, it would be very different and it'd be a poorer one too.

They mightnt win it often but they contribute so much to the overall package. Also they mightnt be very good but at least they turn up unlike a lot of French teams. They look like they wanna be there.

if there is one - and only one - thing I agree with Rees, its that this is a Rabo Cup with some interested and disinterested French clubs. Nothing more.

They were very close to winning it in 2009 and 2011. I hate seeing their teams do well but i'd rather hate them in the Cup than out of the Cup.

But they're the ones refusing to play it in, we haven't kicked them out. So what do we do, roll over and give into all their demands?

They're saying there can be no HC without them, well there was twice before and there can be again. And the point I made to you before which you seemed to have ignored or missed is that the knock-out stages will still be mostly the same as they've been for the past four or five seasons. Over the past five seasons they've averaged two teams per season in the quarter-finals. Substitute a Glasgow or Scarlets or a Montpellier in for them and you'd still have a pretty good tournament. As for Rees point that all that would be left in the Rabo plus some French salad, well that's all the tournament is now, plus six English teams, probably only two or three of which bring anything of value to the tournament. But you seem to have bought the line that life would utterly hopeless without, utterly, utterly hopeless.

[blockhead]

From the times:
Grandees plotting a coup against RFU

Paul Ackford
Last updated at 12:01AM, November 30 2013
A couple of weeks ago, I was in a cab with a senior executive of a Premiership club. It was late, drink had been taken and the talk turned to the state of European rugby politics, which, at that stage, appeared to be favouring the English clubs’ desire to exercise greater influence over the two European rugby tournaments.
“This is only the beginning,” the grandee said. “What if I were to tell you that some of us are looking at how we can run the whole of the professional game in England, including the national team. We reckon it would

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