Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[domhnallj]

What an arse...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502

Ospreys and Wales player Ryan Jones wants British league

Ex-Wales captain Ryan Jones would like to see his Ospreys team play in an Anglo-Welsh competition next season.

Perhaps I am missing something here but what would a British league do to keep Welsh stars in Wales as opposed to going to France?

[Lar]

It's about power and money; that's what it's always been about. Who has it and who wants it and who wants more. There are, of course, other issues as well, but these are the main ones.

Then there are national arguments; regional arguments etc.

That is an interesting point Claire. Someone else has asked the question whether Nigel Wray will eventually tell Northampton that they are a small provincial town with a far smaller population than the London fanbase of Saracens, Harlequins and Wasps and that they (the London Clubs) should therefore get a far greater share of the PRL money for the Aviva Premiership. Because that is on one level the logical extension of exactly what the PRL is arguing.

I'm more than aware that the Italians have 2 clubs in the HEC and the history behind it. I'm also of the feelings that the HEC should be merit based, which it isn't at the moment. The original (or one of them!) plans by the PRL and Frenchies to have a truly European cup, to include the Spanish, Romanians, Georgians etc would have grown rugby in the the NH, but that was put to bed by the Celtic nations. It's not just the English who want power.

You say you don't want to be told we are right and you are wrong but I am afraid I have to call it like I see it and if I think you are wrong I will tell you. I think this is a classic example of PRL spin/hype/cr@p being believed by PRL clubs and fans and not standing up to any scrutiny.

The PRL and the LNR gave lipservice to the idea of a third level of Euro competition so that in theory teams from Georgia, Romania, Spain, Portugal etc could compete and eventually qualify for their equivalent of the Amlin. But this was always completely pie in the sky. Part-time or Amateur English or French Club sides at Level Three or Four nationally might well beat the better teams from Spain or Romania etc as things currently stand. Would they not want participation in a competition that might conceivably give them access to a future Amlin Challenge Cup? How would that be merit based? The argument is ultimately self defeating. If you want a genuinely European competition you make the rules and like them or lump them the rules have to be followed. It isn't a genuinely European competition without the likes of Scotland and Italy and how they select their entrants should be of no concern to clubs or participants outside Scotland or Italy.

Lastly the Celtic Nations did not 'put that to bed'. The Celtic Nations rejected what was proposed by the PRL and the LNR for sound rugby reasons. They have never once said that they rejected the idea of Romanian or Spanish Clubs (or others) participating in Europe (they have done so in the Amlin already which is run by the apparently lame duck ERC that is so despised by the PRL). That was never a reason the Celtic Nations did not like what was proposed by the PRL or LNR.

I don't think the HEC is perfect and it could be better, but due to self-interest of everyone involved it was always going to be difficult to change. What irks me is that it's only in the last month or so that everything has come to a head. There were no discussions for the first year after the English and French issued their intent to leave.

For a lot longer than the last month the PRL has stated that there is nothing more to discuss, and refused to meet the other Unions or the ERC. How do you know there were no discussions for a year? My guess is because that is what the PRL have told you. But if you examine the history of what occurred that is publicly available you will know that a year prior to any discussions ceasing the PRL went ahead and signed their own deal with BT. They have steadfastly refused to divulge the details of this deal to anyone (including the LNR from what I understand) and the only party to whom even partial information has been given is the RFU.

I accept the Celtic and Italian Unions may have been hard to negotiate with (I would have expected this of any stakeholder) but the truth of the matter is that it is now widely and publicly accepted that the Unions accepted (a) a reduction to 20 teams; (b) a reduction in Pro12 representation; (c) more merit based qualification from the Pro12; and (d) that there would be compromise on the share of the revenues from the HEC long before discussions stopped. So in fact only two possibilities emerge. Either the PRL never wanted the aforesaid compromises in the first place and this was really only about them assuming control of the competition or the deal signed with BT precluded them from accepting what were their original demands because they also needed to be in control of the competition so that they could give the broadcasting rights to BT.

We're all from different countries and are all arguing til we're blue in the face. I can only imagine what goes on in the stakeholder meetings!

I don't want to fall out with anyone over this and it's why I dip in and out of this thread; I don't like being told I'm wrong and you're all right. We have different views, but that doesn't make you (collectively) right and me wrong or vice versa.

It's a whole mess, which could have been avoided, but hasn't and it's going to take time for it all to sort itself out. The only losers are the players and the fans and one day, I firmly believe, we'll all play nicely together again.

Can't take issue with any of that. Rugby in the NH is also a real loser in all of this. I genuinely believe that the game in this part of the world is going to go backwards before it goes forward because of the mess that has been created. We are already well behind the SH teams as it is.

I will accept that with hindsight things could have been handled differently but on one fundamental principle I have a very strong opinion. I would prefer every element of the game of Rugby Union to controlled by administrators, competent or not, who (other than an annual salary) have no personal or vested interest in it than for any element of the game to be controlled by private individuals or groups of private individuals who own clubs and have a massive vested interest in their clubs generating profits for their shareholders.

[Lar]

What an arse...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502

Ospreys and Wales player Ryan Jones wants British league

Ex-Wales captain Ryan Jones would like to see his Ospreys team play in an Anglo-Welsh competition next season.

I know that Scotland are having a vote on independence but is Ryan already of the view that this vote has been passed. He wants a 'British' League to be comprised of English and Welsh sides. I am sure the Scots must be loving that. [Not to mention Ulster possibly looking for their own involvement - and before anyone else says it I am aware N Ireland is part of the UK but not part of Great Britain]

[simonokeeffe]

What an arse...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502

Ospreys and Wales player Ryan Jones wants British league

Ex-Wales captain Ryan Jones would like to see his Ospreys team play in an Anglo-Welsh competition next season.

its shoddy journalism as he says he wants Anglo Welsh tournament; British league implies Scotland, with maybe room for Ulster

of many sticking points the Welsh refs, whod want to do internationals, contracted to their union

[lincs tiger]

"I will accept that with hindsight things could have been handled differently but on one fundamental principle I have a very strong opinion. I would prefer every element of the game of Rugby Union to controlled by administrators, competent or not, who (other than an annual salary) have no personal or vested interest in it than for any element of the game to be controlled by private individuals or groups of private individuals who own clubs and have a massive vested interest in their clubs generating profits for their shareholders."

Which is one of the fundamental reasons why English club fans (and Welsh for that matter) and the Irish province fans have such different views on this saga.

Leicester don't have rich benefactor owner, they are a member owned club. But they have a massive vested interest in generating profits and filling Welford Road. 4 years ago they invested £15 million in making Welford Road the biggest dedicated club rugby ground in the Europe, it may even be in the world because I suspect the big rugby stadia in the SH are multi user.

So Leicester in acting on this awful vested interest run rugby camps all over the East of England, plus Jersey and Holland. Then the amateur clubs bring mini and juniors to coaching days at Welford Road and play some tour games etc. Tigers will sell an extra circa 500 extra tickets per game from this, plus club shop sales, food and beverage etc. The kids get access to Leicester players - plenty of them injured at the moment so nothing else to do on a Saturday morning. Leicester also run a mini rugby tournament with clubs entering from a very wide geographic area. This also helps sell tickets probably circa 1,000 for tournament days at WR. I'm sure Leinster do something similar, but they won't do as well. That vested interest is a huge spur. Now multiply that by 12 across England. The RFU just couldn't and wouldn't get that intensity of coverage as the AP clubs do in their areas. its a mutually beneficial process - helps attract kids to the game and keep them and Leicester fill Welford Road. Regional franchises just wouldn't achieve that coverage as well. It would take a franchise years to build a name like Tigers have in rugby. If more clubs get investors in to build stadia - Cornish Pirates, Bedford, even Jersey that generates more growth (like Worcester and Exeter have acheived). The north is a problem because of rugby league and football - that's why Sale and Newcastle struggle to get bums on seats. But the South West hotbed is still not fully developed.

The problem from PRL and LNR getting the commercial control they want at European level isn't that it will stunt the development of rugby union. On the contrary, they will develop the game faster than without union control. The problem is it will grow in England and France and in the developing rugby nations with big TV potential to the East - Russia especially Romania and Georgia in the medium to long term. Scotland (especially) and Ireland have little growth potential - the game has been established for over a 100 years, in countries with small populations and a TV market already saturated with sport. Italy will be fine in long run providing it can get a domestic league established (coming into the Celtic League with franchises was a backward step for them IMHO). That is why there has to be balance in the amount of commercial control given to PRL and LNR. The Celts need guarantees on income share and that PRL/LNR don't just rewrite the rules every few years. But more commercial control will have to be given, if not now soon. It is inevitable and dinosaurs like Martyn Thomas and Camou are only delaying the inevitable. The challenge is to stop it being a wholly destructive process

[Bogger]

"I will accept that with hindsight things could have been handled differently but on one fundamental principle I have a very strong opinion. I would prefer every element of the game of Rugby Union to controlled by administrators, competent or not, who (other than an annual salary) have no personal or vested interest in it than for any element of the game to be controlled by private individuals or groups of private individuals who own clubs and have a massive vested interest in their clubs generating profits for their shareholders."

Which is one of the fundamental reasons why English club fans (and Welsh for that matter) and the Irish province fans have such different views on this saga.

Leicester don't have rich benefactor owner, they are a member owned club. But they have a massive vested interest in generating profits and filling Welford Road. 4 years ago they invested £15 million in making Welford Road the biggest dedicated club rugby ground in the Europe, it may even be in the world because I suspect the big rugby stadia in the SH are multi user.

So Leicester in acting on this awful vested interest run rugby camps all over the East of England, plus Jersey and Holland. Then the amateur clubs bring mini and juniors to coaching days at Welford Road and play some tour games etc. Tigers will sell an extra circa 500 extra tickets per game from this, plus club shop sales, food and beverage etc. The kids get access to Leicester players - plenty of them injured at the moment so nothing else to do on a Saturday morning. Leicester also run a mini rugby tournament with clubs entering from a very wide geographic area. This also helps sell tickets probably circa 1,000 for tournament days at WR. I'm sure Leinster do something similar, but they won't do as well. That vested interest is a huge spur. Now multiply that by 12 across England. The RFU just couldn't and wouldn't get that intensity of coverage as the AP clubs do in their areas. its a mutually beneficial process - helps attract kids to the game and keep them and Leicester fill Welford Road. Regional franchises just wouldn't achieve that coverage as well. It would take a franchise years to build a name like Tigers have in rugby. If more clubs get investors in to build stadia - Cornish Pirates, Bedford, even Jersey that generates more growth (like Worcester and Exeter have acheived). The north is a problem because of rugby league and football - that's why Sale and Newcastle struggle to get bums on seats. But the South West hotbed is still not fully developed.

The problem from PRL and LNR getting the commercial control they want at European level isn't that it will stunt the development of rugby union. On the contrary, they will develop the game faster than without union control. The problem is it will grow in England and France and in the developing rugby nations with big TV potential to the East - Russia especially Romania and Georgia in the medium to long term. Scotland (especially) and Ireland have little growth potential - the game has been established for over a 100 years, in countries with small populations and a TV market already saturated with sport. Italy will be fine in long run providing it can get a domestic league established (coming into the Celtic League with franchises was a backward step for them IMHO). That is why there has to be balance in the amount of commercial control given to PRL and LNR. The Celts need guarantees on income share and that PRL/LNR don't just rewrite the rules every few years. But more commercial control will have to be given, if not now soon. It is inevitable and dinosaurs like Martyn Thomas and Camou are only delaying the inevitable. The challenge is to stop it being a wholly destructive process

Thanks...that's one of the best and most rational arguments for Change I have heard...better than the nonsense Brian Moore et al churn out....But you see Leinster a few years back were Donnybrook based and I could often find myself and my son there with about 2,000 fans and few stray Dogs. Leinster have built a massive brand and following, not just in Leinster, but internationally and in time this can grow further commercially. In addition, Leinster do a lot of the Kids stuff and other things ....Tradition keeps the game alive at one level with most of our players are still Leinster Born and Bred and our senior and junior schools games are a wonder to watch. PRL & LNR are driven by a model that is attempting to achieve Soccer style European League where big money rules and super clubs with super over hyped Players dominate (and don't forget this is also driven by a commercial ratings war by BT/SKY and Canal + and Al J)....It will destroy the Ethos of the game we love not Develop it...some clubs like Tigers and indeed Leinster can survive this and even thrive but places like Connacht, Bristol, Edinburgh, Newport, will resemble District 12 in the Hunger Games scrapping for a living....Look the Unions are the right people to run the Game as they will try and benefit the game at all Levels....they have got it wrong too-IRFU tried to close down Connacht, SRU closed down Borders because they weren't viable commercially....now look at Scotland clinging on....in any event I hope English Fans ( and I have met so many over the years really wonderful people) will tell the Money Men to stop mucking around and sit down and get an agreement for the sake of the Game.

[rummyometer]

RFU chief calls for 'one more effort' to save European competition
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/d ... ompetition

[Jackie Brown]

He could fix it, by growing a pair of balls.

[ribs]

By the way, the portuguese national side was in this year's amlin (minus the players contracted to french clubs of course)

[goreyguy]

worrying times

[tate]

The Welsh regions are expected to tell the Welsh Rugby Union on Wednesday that they will be going their own way next season, prepared to go to court to fight for the right to link with the English. "It is the most important day in Wales in the professional era," said Simon Easterby, the Scarlets' head coach.

If the welsh regions pull out of the Rabo we're pretty f%~ked.

All in all, I'm worried about this cluster f%~k of a situation. My overriding concern is that in 10 years time Irish pro rugby will be but a fond memory and we'll assume a test role similar to what the national kickyball team have now. Push for the occasional decent result, lose all our players to other country's clubs and wallow in a pool of just below average mediocrity.

So thanks PRL, thanks WRR - hope the whole venture goes up in smoke.

At least this was my initial thought.

But I presume/hope CYMRU have enough legal say that it wont happen. And all their good players will be in France next year (or whenever they could legally leave if they even can). The IRB can (and will?) intercede and say they are licensed to play rugby union, right?

There's always the AIL I guess.

[simonokeeffe]

The Welsh regions are expected to tell the Welsh Rugby Union on Wednesday that they will be going their own way next season, prepared to go to court to fight for the right to link with the English. "It is the most important day in Wales in the professional era," said Simon Easterby, the Scarlets' head coach.

If the welsh regions pull out of the Rabo we're pretty f%~ked.

All in all, I'm worried about this cluster f%~k of a situation. My overriding concern is that in 10 years time Irish pro rugby will be but a fond memory and we'll assume a test role similar to what the national kickyball team have now. Push for the occasional decent result, lose all our players to other country's clubs and wallow in a pool of just below average mediocrity.

So thanks PRL, thanks WRR - hope the whole venture goes up in smoke.

At least this was my initial thought.

But I presume/hope CYMRU have enough legal say that it wont happen. And all their good players will be in France next year (or whenever they could legally leave if they even can). The IRB can (and will?) intercede and say they are licensed to play rugby union, right?

There's always the AIL I guess.

we're going to go through all this again next year when HC has to be sorted out again and (Welsh) pro12 accord runs out
cant see them bailing a year early on that and being sued by 3 unions and various tv companies, not that them taking it half assed would be much consolation

oddly we could see Dragons as first rebel/centralised region

[Lar]

"I will accept that with hindsight things could have been handled differently but on one fundamental principle I have a very strong opinion. I would prefer every element of the game of Rugby Union to controlled by administrators, competent or not, who (other than an annual salary) have no personal or vested interest in it than for any element of the game to be controlled by private individuals or groups of private individuals who own clubs and have a massive vested interest in their clubs generating profits for their shareholders."

Which is one of the fundamental reasons why English club fans (and Welsh for that matter) and the Irish province fans have such different views on this saga.

Leicester don't have rich benefactor owner, they are a member owned club. But they have a massive vested interest in generating profits and filling Welford Road. 4 years ago they invested £15 million in making Welford Road the biggest dedicated club rugby ground in the Europe, it may even be in the world because I suspect the big rugby stadia in the SH are multi user.

So Leicester in acting on this awful vested interest run rugby camps all over the East of England, plus Jersey and Holland. Then the amateur clubs bring mini and juniors to coaching days at Welford Road and play some tour games etc. Tigers will sell an extra circa 500 extra tickets per game from this, plus club shop sales, food and beverage etc. The kids get access to Leicester players - plenty of them injured at the moment so nothing else to do on a Saturday morning. Leicester also run a mini rugby tournament with clubs entering from a very wide geographic area. This also helps sell tickets probably circa 1,000 for tournament days at WR. I'm sure Leinster do something similar, but they won't do as well. That vested interest is a huge spur. Now multiply that by 12 across England. The RFU just couldn't and wouldn't get that intensity of coverage as the AP clubs do in their areas. its a mutually beneficial process - helps attract kids to the game and keep them and Leicester fill Welford Road. Regional franchises just wouldn't achieve that coverage as well. It would take a franchise years to build a name like Tigers have in rugby. If more clubs get investors in to build stadia - Cornish Pirates, Bedford, even Jersey that generates more growth (like Worcester and Exeter have acheived). The north is a problem because of rugby league and football - that's why Sale and Newcastle struggle to get bums on seats. But the South West hotbed is still not fully developed.

The problem from PRL and LNR getting the commercial control they want at European level isn't that it will stunt the development of rugby union. On the contrary, they will develop the game faster than without union control. The problem is it will grow in England and France and in the developing rugby nations with big TV potential to the East - Russia especially Romania and Georgia in the medium to long term. Scotland (especially) and Ireland have little growth potential - the game has been established for over a 100 years, in countries with small populations and a TV market already saturated with sport. Italy will be fine in long run providing it can get a domestic league established (coming into the Celtic League with franchises was a backward step for them IMHO). That is why there has to be balance in the amount of commercial control given to PRL and LNR. The Celts need guarantees on income share and that PRL/LNR don't just rewrite the rules every few years. But more commercial control will have to be given, if not now soon. It is inevitable and dinosaurs like Martyn Thomas and Camou are only delaying the inevitable. The challenge is to stop it being a wholly destructive process

I don't see why anything you have written there supports the concept of less Union control in favour of more club control.

1 You can't multiply Leicester x 12 because many of the rest of the clubs are in fact shareholder owned.
2 What Leicester have been doing they have been doing in the current structures. I am not saying change is not good but you hardly support the argument for change when giving an example of what has been happening before the change occurs. If anything what Leicester have done is argument for what you can do without getting private investors involved.
3 You state that the PRL and LNR will develop the game faster without Union control. I cannot see one argument you have put forward that supports this statement.
4 Why would the PRL and LNR care about TV markets in Russia, Georgia and Romania? Unless they will control the revenue stream from rights sold in those countries, and why would it be for the good of Rugby in those countries if they did that? Why would it even be fair that they might be able to do that in the first place?

[lincs tiger]

1 You can't multiply Leicester x 12 because many of the rest of the clubs are in fact shareholder owned.

Shareholder owners have invested millions in stadia and academies at some clubs already - bigger commercial income streams from TV will make that investment easier to fund, - the next Exeter might be Cornish Pirates if the TV cash is there to help develop the club.

2 What Leicester have been doing they have been doing in the current structures. I am not saying change is not good but you hardly support the argument for change when giving an example of what has been happening before the change occurs. If anything what Leicester have done is argument for what you can do without getting private investors involved.

Leicester are fortunate - they had a helpful city council, an existing stadium that was already a good size and full nearly every game and could be expanded and the fanbase is there to fill it. Other teams need proportionately more funding relative to current turnover. More TV income will help Quins / Saints / Gloucester / Bath / Exeter /Worcester expand further and hopefully Bristol and Pirates as well. The problems with massive annual losses are at the clubs who don't own their stadia- Irish and Wasps, or in areas that are so football /rugby league dominated they can't get the fanbase - Sale and Newcastle. Sarries are probably unique - massive losses and owners who don't really care about them - they'll probably be ok with the Allianz / Wembley combo.
3 You state that the PRL and LNR will develop the game faster without Union control. I cannot see one argument you have put forward that supports this statement.

Unions have no incentive to do so. In fact all the Celtic unions have been doing the opposite or looking to cut. WRU - Celtic Warriors and now threatening Newport, SRU scrapped Caledonian Reds and Borders IRFU threatened to bin Connacht.

Promoted teams appear in the HC/Amlin from England and France - 20 years ago where were Worcester and Exeter? Lansdowne would probably have beaten them.

4 Why would the PRL and LNR care about TV markets in Russia, Georgia and Romania? Unless they will control the revenue stream from rights sold in those countries, and why would it be for the good of Rugby in those countries if they did that? Why would it even be fair that they might be able to do that in the first place?

If the TV markets for rugby in those countries are strong enough their teams will eventually be competitive without revenue sharing from PRL/LNRs TV deals - unlike the current ERC structure.

[Scrum 5]

What an arse...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502

Ospreys and Wales player Ryan Jones wants British league

Ex-Wales captain Ryan Jones would like to see his Ospreys team play in an Anglo-Welsh competition next season.

I know that Scotland are having a vote on independence but is Ryan already of the view that this vote has been passed. He wants a 'British' League to be comprised of English and Welsh sides. I am sure the Scots must be loving that. [Not to mention Ulster possibly looking for their own involvement - and before anyone else says it I am aware N Ireland is part of the UK but not part of Great Britain]

"I've said for years a British league would be absolutely fantastic,"

Maybe he's saying an Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England having a league. (Accepted his use of 'British' is wrong here but lets not get into all that). The headline and sub-headline can mean two very different things.

It's been highlighted now and again but the Top14 could move so far away in terms of money that this could be the only option to keep provincial/club rugby at a high level in all of the home nations. It would be difficult to get into bed with the PRL but it could become a necessity for both parties.

[tate]

What kind of bs talk is Georgia, Russia and Romania? Again rugby is not a popular sport outside it's core teams. There might be a lot of people in Romania but I highly doubt they have the resources to be seriously considered as a big market.

With Russia basketball, football, ice hockey and tennis are all definitely more popular and according to the wikis rugby only getting local media coverage.

Georgia have a reasonably strong history but again, how strong is their economy? Their population is comparable to ours and their economy is also in the shite end of the scale.

So in the crudest metrics possible it's simply not a runner

[JB1973]

The Regions see an Anglo English league as a panacea to all ills. They think it will give them more income which will help them retain the best players, get bigger crowds, and more give them more power to take on the Union for control of the players and to force out Lewis as the chief exec.

For this they are willing to turn their back on their pro 12 partners, hold players back from test duty, derail a chance of world cup success for their own country and cost the WRU a fortune in legal fees that could be used to improve grass roots rugby for teams all over wales.

All for the promise of a few scraps from the PRL who only even considered them after the french snubbed them at the last minute and who would drop them like a hot brick in the future if it means a better deal for the PRL.

These are the narrow minded fools who are taking our game to the brink of ruin, if this deal goes through I shall be ripping up my Ospreys season ticket and going to watch Swansea RFC or my old club Bon Y Maen.

I have no desire to fund or ally myself with these rugby quislings.

I hope the WRU stands up to them and we can finally get proper regions, with central contracts and a good working relationship for everyone connected with the game in Wales at every level

[paddyor]

1 You can't multiply Leicester x 12 because many of the rest of the clubs are in fact shareholder owned.

Shareholder owners have invested millions in stadia and academies at some clubs already - bigger commercial income streams from TV will make that investment easier to fund, - the next Exeter might be Cornish Pirates if the TV cash is there to help develop the club.

I'd take issue with that because most of the clubs in the AP are in financial "trouble". You actually go into it in a point you make later(no grounds, tough competition from other sports)They'd be in bigger trouble without the EPS agreement and the revenue from a euro comp. The international game is a huge driver of the game and even if the AP can out out grow the revenue it generates but it'll still be dependent on it for a long time to come.

3 You state that the PRL and LNR will develop the game faster without Union control. I cannot see one argument you have put forward that supports this statement.

Unions have no incentive to do so. In fact all the Celtic unions have been doing the opposite or looking to cut. WRU - Celtic Warriors and now threatening Newport, SRU scrapped Caledonian Reds and Borders IRFU threatened to bin Connacht.

Promoted teams appear in the HC/Amlin from England and France - 20 years ago where were Worcester and Exeter? Lansdowne would probably have beaten them.

Ah the old relegation canard. It's a fully professional game now you know. Players at the bottom are playing to develop their careers and set themselves up in life. There's a documentary about Connacht called the West Awake. It follows them through a 14 match losing streak as they are mired at the bottom of the pro12(excl Zebre). The players all give a damn about whats happening and it shows. For years Connachts been a place payers went so that they could go somewhere else. It had bad infrastructure, poor support(it comprises just 7% of the playing population IIRC) and tough competition from Soccer and GAA. For a long time it looked like it would never be able to contribute much to pro rugby in Ireland but a minus in the balance sheet(still the case). It was given development status and took it's opportunity. There was no sense in continued funding if all it did was drag the other 3 provinces down with it.

In all the cases you list above it came down to there not being a big enough talent pool or public support for the teams that were cut. NZ has 14% of it's population playing and it's the national obsession so they can support 5(soon to be six) teams.

Also the AP example of promotion and relegation is a bad one(London Welsh).

If the TV markets for rugby in those countries are strong enough their teams will eventually be competitive without revenue sharing from PRL/LNRs TV deals - unlike the current ERC structure.

IF! They're not and they won't be without a some outside investment and support. I think the IRB can do more on this but that's another argument. The PRL had one page on a third tier tournament, if they went ahead with it, they'd have it shelved after 2-3 years because of a lack of progress. My suspicion is they are interested in hawking themselves to these fans to generate revenue.

[janeymac08]

Leicester don't have rich benefactor owner, they are a member owned club. But they have a massive vested interest in generating profits and filling Welford Road. 4 years ago they invested £15 million in making Welford Road the biggest dedicated club rugby ground in the Europe, it may even be in the world because I suspect the big rugby stadia in the SH are multi user.

Just being a pendant here, but Thomond Park is bigger than Welford Rd I think at 26K? Munster Rugby invested 48M in it (opened in 2008) and still owe about 10m to the IRFU for it (has to be repaid by 2018 or something).

[TerenureJim]

To lincs tiger you haven't a clue about the link between Provincial rugby and the kids/schools game in Ireland. The Leinster Senior Schools Cup is big enough to rival Championship teams in terms of attendance and it's all through the branch. Please research before posting.