Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[TerenureJim]

It's all just posturing and hot air at this point. Real deal will be settled in the office block behind the South Stand at the RDS. Anyways at the end of the day there is another stakeholder in this that's nto being mentioned and that's Sky. I'm sure that when TV rights get negotiated any competition missing Leinster, Munster and Ulster will be worth significantly less to them.

At the end of the day there's a far higher number of Irish subscribers to Sky than there are French who specifically sign up to get the HEC and there are a lot of Irish in the UK who no doubt have some form of Sky to follow Leinster, Munster & Ulster.

I'd also hazard that to many English fans Irish teams and maybe Clarmont would be second favourite after their own team.

[Munsterboy]

It's all just posturing and hot air at this point. Real deal will be settled in the office block behind the South Stand at the RDS. Anyways at the end of the day there is another stakeholder in this that's nto being mentioned and that's Sky. I'm sure that when TV rights get negotiated any competition missing Leinster, Munster and Ulster will be worth significantly less to them.

At the end of the day there's a far higher number of Irish subscribers to Sky than there are French who specifically sign up to get the HEC and there are a lot of Irish in the UK who no doubt have some form of Sky to follow Leinster, Munster & Ulster.

I'd also hazard that to many English fans Irish teams and maybe Clarmont would be second favourite after their own team.

Good point Jim.

[domhnallj]

It's all just posturing and hot air at this point. Real deal will be settled in the office block behind the South Stand at the RDS. Anyways at the end of the day there is another stakeholder in this that's nto being mentioned and that's Sky. I'm sure that when TV rights get negotiated any competition missing Leinster, Munster and Ulster will be worth significantly less to them.

At the end of the day there's a far higher number of Irish subscribers to Sky than there are French who specifically sign up to get the HEC and there are a lot of Irish in the UK who no doubt have some form of Sky to follow Leinster, Munster & Ulster.

I'd also hazard that to many English fans Irish teams and maybe Clarmont would be second favourite after their own team.

That describes my relationship with Sky exactly. I couldn't care less about the EP or Anglo-Welsh cup although I do like a bit of Super Rugby.

[johng]

Sky is all about the Feutball. A tiny minority of people here and in Britain watch it for the Rugby.

[Munsterboy]

Sky is all about the Feutball. A tiny minority of people here and in Britain watch it for the Rugby.

Off the top of my head, aside from football I can't think of anything else they show that they big up as much as the HEC. Of course it's nothing compared to the Champions League etc. but it's still an important part of their offering as a sports channel.

[Vamos los azules]

It's all just posturing and hot air at this point. Real deal will be settled in the office block behind the South Stand at the RDS. Anyways at the end of the day there is another stakeholder in this that's nto being mentioned and that's Sky. I'm sure that when TV rights get negotiated any competition missing Leinster, Munster and Ulster will be worth significantly less to them.

At the end of the day there's a far higher number of Irish subscribers to Sky than there are French who specifically sign up to get the HEC and there are a lot of Irish in the UK who no doubt have some form of Sky to follow Leinster, Munster & Ulster.

I'd also hazard that to many English fans Irish teams and maybe Clarmont would be second favourite after their own team.

French TV rights are Canal+ rather than Sky so they'd need to be factored in at some stage.

The main problem is the question of whether it is an elite rugby club competition or a European competition for the development of rugby in the various countries. Because the 2 are mutually exclusive at the current time.

The Welsh regions are also in a race to go bust judging by the last audited accounts, which may have some impact on all these discussions.

[BlueArmyOriginal]

I'm a bit surprised that people are even looking at how this can work. I think that, as in most cases, the French and English clubs can go a f%~k themselves. There is absolutely no other reason for these proposals(threats) other than incredibly short-sighted greed.

The French want more domestic fixtures and the English have boshed all skill and quality out of their league, are pissed off about this and want to blame everyone else.

So the qualification for the HEC for the Celtic clubs is unfair? Well was it unfair in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007 and 2009? Funny how this argument "to improve the competition" seems to have only gained momentum in the last 2-3years coinciding with a dearth of talent in the AP despite the fact that the qualification system for the competition hasn't changed in over a decade.

Here's a proposal: If the competition needs improving, why dont the English clubs shut up, leave the competition in it's highly successful current format and concentrate on their own product?! If they had more to offer to fans other than travelling to some shithole industrial estate 100km away from the club's catchment area to watch a bunch of ex-pat bosh-merchants headbutt eachother, they might be able to improve their HEC performances and make more money(which is the whole reason we're even discussing this issue)

Put another way, the Irish and Welsh teams to a lesser extent, have implemented systems that optimise the performance of our playing resources at all levels(Declan Kidney aside). Why should we be punished for this because the French and English havent done the same? Let that be their problem, not the whole of European rugby's.

[Vamos los azules]

Here's a proposal: If the competition needs improving, why dont the English clubs shut up, leave the competition in it's highly successful current format and concentrate on their own product?!

That's what they've given notice that they're going to do in 2 years time. Ditto the French. Thinking they're wrong in the position they've taken doesn't change that fact. And I'd be more concerned about the fact that the FFR and LNR both gave notice and are silently working together behind the scenes drawing up the plans for the Anglo-French competition than the country whose Union didn't give notice, effectively suggesting they are happy for the competition to continue as it stands.

If they had more to offer to fans other than travelling to some shithole industrial estate 100km away from the club's catchment area to watch a bunch of ex-pat bosh-merchants headbutt eachother, they might be able to improve their HEC performances and make more money(which is the whole reason we're even discussing this issue)

That description sounds an awful lot more like the Welsh regions than the English clubs. Have you been to Welford Road or the Rec? You'll get way more passion at those grounds in the heart of their communities than you will at the Liberty Stadium or Parc y Scarlets. With the notable exception of Saracens the English sides are changing their style of rugby and last season I watched far more enjoyable games involving Leicester, Northampton and Harlequins than the lower levels of the Pro 12. There is some serious cr@p played in the Pro 12 as well. Fortunately Leinster aren't involved in most of it.

Put another way, the Irish and Welsh teams to a lesser extent, have implemented systems that optimise the performance of our playing resources at all levels(Declan Kidney aside). Why should we be punished for this because the French and English havent done the same? Let that be their problem, not the whole of European rugby's.

I wouldn't begin to describe the Welsh regional system as being as successful as the Irish provincial system. They alienated the traditional clubs and the regions have no fans and are rapidly going bust. At the current time the Scottish system is probably more healthy than the Welsh one.

[Donny B.]

The thing is that if you let the English and French clubs have their way, then they'll just wheel out the same threat every time they get their knickers in a twist. Don't forget we've been here before, when the English clubs threatened to pull out and the RFU were going to send in championship sides.
The RFU need to get their clubs back in hand because it seems like the patients are running the asylum again, headed by king nutbag Mike McCafferty. Some of his "logic'" is beyond laughable really. Apparently the Italians should have known when they joined the Pro12 that this would mean they'd be chucked out of the HC.

The Heineken Cup is the best thing ever to happen to rugby in Europe and I said that long before the Irish teams began to dominate it. How would an Anglo-French cup have any credibility now anyway if they lock out the best teams? If the four smaller nations don't stand up to these bullies now, they'll forever be doormats. It's depressing to see how many people instantly accept their 'might is right' argument though.

[Cianostays]

I'm a bit surprised that people are even looking at how this can work. I think that, as in most cases, the French and English clubs can go a f%~k themselves. There is absolutely no other reason for these proposals(threats) other than incredibly short-sighted greed.

The French want more domestic fixtures and the English have boshed all skill and quality out of their league, are pissed off about this and want to blame everyone else.

So the qualification for the HEC for the Celtic clubs is unfair? Well was it unfair in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007 and 2009? Funny how this argument "to improve the competition" seems to have only gained momentum in the last 2-3years coinciding with a dearth of talent in the AP despite the fact that the qualification system for the competition hasn't changed in over a decade.

Here's a proposal: If the competition needs improving, why dont the English clubs shut up, leave the competition in it's highly successful current format and concentrate on their own product?! If they had more to offer to fans other than travelling to some shithole industrial estate 100km away from the club's catchment area to watch a bunch of ex-pat bosh-merchants headbutt eachother, they might be able to improve their HEC performances and make more money(which is the whole reason we're even discussing this issue)

Put another way, the Irish and Welsh teams to a lesser extent, have implemented systems that optimise the performance of our playing resources at all levels(Declan Kidney aside). Why should we be punished for this because the French and English havent done the same? Let that be their problem, not the whole of European rugby's.

I see we're not in any danger of you going native any time soon BAO Good to see.

Fair points there, to a degree, but as a response to the general thread I think that a qualifying system amongst the 4 countries with the rest of the positions awarded to the highest placed teams in the Pro12 who haven't already qualified is a fairer way of doing it.

24 teams is fine as it is and how in the hell would removing the Italian teams, which is effectively what this english/french proposal would effectively do, be for the betterment of European Rugby?

[ronk]

Premier rugby will have to be careful because of another key stakeholder, the RFU. Technically, they have the right to make the decisions. The prem and RFU fight as much if not more than the prem fight with everyone else. The RFU probably aren't thrilled with the current deal where they pay so much to get English clubs to employ less English players, in effect.

A prem pull out of the Heineken Cup would be perfect timing for a move to a franchise system in England. There wont be a better chance. Take out the international players (they're already under contract), the RFU funding and the HC revenue: the prem would be in trouble. The RFU have the muscle (plus the 6N and the Heineken Cup) to probably bring Sky with them. They could cobble together a few franchises quickly and does anyone trust the solidarity of the English clubs in the face of buyout offers or invitations to form franchises.

It'd be extreme, but the further them prem push, the easier they'd make it to sign their own death warrant. It almost certainly would do us more harm than good, but it is a reminder that there's more danger to prem clubs than to us.

[suisse]

Anyways at the end of the day there is another stakeholder in this that's nto being mentioned and that's Sky. I'm sure that when TV rights get negotiated any competition missing Leinster, Munster and Ulster will be worth significantly less to them.

At the end of the day there's a far higher number of Irish subscribers to Sky than there are French who specifically sign up to get the HEC and there are a lot of Irish in the UK who no doubt have some form of Sky to follow Leinster, Munster & Ulster.

I'd also hazard that to many English fans Irish teams and maybe Clarmont would be second favourite after their own team.

I think you're totally overestimating the scale of Irish rugby support on SKY sports. Stuart Barnes might lax lyrical about Thomand Park, Brian O'Driscoll or Ravenhill in the rain, but I don't think for a second that Sky would pull out of an Anglo-French Cup for the sake of our 4 provinces.

There are 600,000 SKY subscribers in Ireland and we don't know how many have the sports package or how many are pubs, restaurants or hotels. IIRC, there was a figure released on viewership in Ireland for that Final on SKY and the figure stood at just over 300,000. I can't find the figures on-line but I'd imagine Leinster-Ulster was far less of a draw for SKY than Leinster-Northampton.

Sky wouldn't know about the Irish in the UK or who English fans support as their second team.

A 12-16 team Anglo-French Cup featuring Leicester, Quins, Sarries, Toulouse, Clermont and Perpignan would be very easy to sell to SKY sports and its core rugby viewership. How many of the Irish contingent would drop their SKY Sports subscription if we weren't in the Cup? My parents wouldn't go to the bother as there are other sports to watch too.

[cormac]

Premier rugby will have to be careful because of another key stakeholder, the RFU. Technically, they have the right to make the decisions. The prem and RFU fight as much if not more than the prem fight with everyone else. The RFU probably aren't thrilled with the current deal where they pay so much to get English clubs to employ less English players, in effect.

A prem pull out of the Heineken Cup would be perfect timing for a move to a franchise system in England. There wont be a better chance. Take out the international players (they're already under contract), the RFU funding and the HC revenue: the prem would be in trouble. The RFU have the muscle (plus the 6N and the Heineken Cup) to probably bring Sky with them. They could cobble together a few franchises quickly and does anyone trust the solidarity of the English clubs in the face of buyout offers or invitations to form franchises.

It'd be extreme, but the further them prem push, the easier they'd make it to sign their own death warrant. It almost certainly would do us more harm than good, but it is a reminder that there's more danger to prem clubs than to us.

The French, English and Welsh votes on the ERC are split between their unions and the clubs, so FFR and LNR have 1 vote each, same for RFU and AP rep and WRU and Welsh club rep.

[suisse]

How would an Anglo-French cup have any credibility now anyway if they lock out the best teams?

Really? I'm obviously very much in favour of telling Mike McCafferty to go f%~k himself but I'm sure the people who attend Welford Road will still be chuffed to see Leicester take on Toulouse, Clermont or Perpignan in a revised cup, even if the smaller nations are absent. Toulouse would still be able to advance their training centre in a group featuring Quins and Sarries and Castres, Racing and Bourgoin would still not give a sh!t.

A new Cup would lose credibility in Ireland, and Wales, but these nations already wanted full control, so to their rugby public it wouldn't make a difference. Plus, as their Leagues and this revised Cup would be attracting the biggest numbers on TV and through the turnstyles, it would still be the most attractive destination for SH imports who would probably have less interest in coming to Ireland if all we have to offer is the PRO12.

They know the Cup needs the input of the smaller nations but they could still have a very successful cup without us.

[Dexter]

The main problem is the question of whether it is an elite rugby club competition or a European competition for the development of rugby in the various countries. Because the 2 are mutually exclusive at the current time.

As far as I understand, the original intention was for the 2nd, a European competition involving representation from as many countries as realistically possible. That is still the stated intention.
It can be compared with the World Cup in soccer. That competion never took the best 16, 24 or 32 teams in the world, as it has regional representation from Africa, Oceania, North & Central America..etc.. So in the 70's teams like Zaire turned up and were no hopers. These weaker regions gradually developed and improved. The Euro's are generally a much higher quality than the World Cups.

So, if the HC is supposed to be an elite club competition drawing from 3 leagues, fair enough. If it's supposed to be pan-European then that's another story, at odds with what McCafferty is spouting.

[Donny B.]

How would an Anglo-French cup have any credibility now anyway if they lock out the best teams?

Really? I'm obviously very much in favour of telling Mike McCafferty to go f%~k himself but I'm sure the people who attend Welford Road will still be chuffed to see Leicester take on Toulouse, Clermont or Perpignan in a revised cup, even if the smaller nations are absent. Toulouse would still be able to advance their training centre in a group featuring Quins and Sarries and Castres, Racing and Bourgoin would still not give a sh!t.

A new Cup would lose credibility in Ireland, and Wales, but these nations already wanted full control, so to their rugby public it wouldn't make a difference. Plus, as their Leagues and this revised Cup would be attracting the biggest numbers on TV and through the turnstyles, it would still be the most attractive destination for SH imports who would probably have less interest in coming to Ireland if all we have to offer is the PRO12.

They know the Cup needs the input of the smaller nations but they could still have a very successful cup without us.

It might be successful but they wouldn't be able to claim the winner as the best team in Europe, while it probably would have been true five or six years ago.
But since the Irish teams have become so successful, any new tournament would be haunted by the fact that they were excluded. The Southern Hemisphere in particular would delight in laughing at any winner of the Anglo-French cup, and in the internet age, credibility matters.

Though English clubs may be generally run by f**kwits like McCafferty, English rugby fans are generally fairly good rugby people and I doubt they'd get as excited by an Anglo-French cup with hardly any visiting fans. Being the best team from two nations (no matter how big) is simply not the same as being crowned champions of Europe. Then there's the players to consider. They've grown up wanting to be European champions, not Anglo-French champions. They were seriously pissed off when the English clubs pulled out in 1999 and would not want to be excluded again.

In terms of compromise the only thing that I think will work is simply giving the English and French a bigger share of the tournament profits. If that was offered, all their arguments about the qualifying from the Pro12 would disappear in an instant cause they've been repeatedly shown to be completely hollow.

[Dexter]

It might be successful but they wouldn't be able to claim the winner as the best team in Europe, while it probably would have been true five or six years ago.
But since the Irish teams have become so successful, any new tournament would be haunted by the fact that they were excluded. The Southern Hemisphere in particular would delight in laughing at any winner of the Anglo-French cup, and in the internet age, credibility matters.

True. Take the last 5 years as an arbitrary measure, as we all know the (now called) Pro 12 has had impressive stats as semi finalists, finalists and winners:
08 - 1 Semi-finalist, finalist and winner
09 - 3 SF, 1 F, W
10 - 2 SF, 0 F
11- 1 SF, F, W
12 - 3 SF, 2 F, 1 W

So, 50% of the semi-finalists, 50% of the finalists and 80% of the winners. Serious credibility issues for the winners of any Anglo-French competition. Imagine a world cup without the SH.

[RavenhillRaider]

First soundbites from the french;

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2 ... 68865.html

[limecat]

First soundbites from the french;

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2 ... 68865.html

Loving this quote: "The Amlin Challenge Cup must have teams from all stakeholders because at the moment it is a useless competition just concerning English and French clubs,"

[Donny B.]

First soundbites from the french;

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2 ... 68865.html

Loving this quote: "The Amlin Challenge Cup must have teams from all stakeholders because at the moment it is a useless competition just concerning English and French clubs,"

Yeah. So let's break away and just have one big useless competition with the English and French clubs.

Also ignores the fact that the Dragons are in it and Connacht normally are too.