Munster 2013/2014

[jezzer]

Saw Munster Saturday and still undecided on them. Their front row were very impressive, scrummaged really well and were prominent in the loose, their made a mess of the dragons line out and in POM they have a class forward who leads by example and makes the hard yards.

On the down side their back play is still far too lateral, they really need a centre that can put people into space and they need their back 3 to alter their lines of running to make things harder for the opposition defence.

Even with 13 men for a spell the Munster back line didn't look like opening up the Dragons.
I admire the game plan Penney has and his determination to play running rugby but until he gets more go forward his team I can see the better sides snuffing out that attack.

Guess next week will show us more

Glad to see actual rugby being discussed on this thread! JB1973 for Ireland!!!!!!

In my opinion, you've hit the nail on the head with Munster. They need a midfield that can run hard and straight and fix defenders before getting the ball away.
They have players like Downey who can run hard but can't get the ball away. They have players like Earls who can't run straight or get the ball away. None of the Munster midfielders are "bad players" per se, but their skillsets don't mesh with Penney's gameplan. Munster needs a midfield fulcrum to play off and they could be devastating - a la Mullins or De Villiers. Earls just isn't a centre in my opinion. I can see why he's played there with Zebo and Conway no available to Penney, but he's a nightmare for proper running lines and distribution.

[suisse]

"It's only fair" was a humorous comment.

Project players per se may have had their day if rumours out of on high are true. Not that players won't qualify, but we won't be giving an extra NIQ spot for them.

How many projects are too many? Dunno. Don't think of it that way. Once they are capped they are Irish players forever. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

1. I wish I picked up on that Internet message boards can be unforgiving when you don't spot humour, and it happens a lot.

2. Yeah. Hopefully.

3. Fair enough.

[suisse]

Hypothetically if Nacewa had not of got that Fiji cap (and no All Black caps if uncapped by Fiji) and he came to Ireland and did what he did would you still have played Kearney (or anyone else) at fullback for Ireland post 2011 when Nacewa would have been (again hypothetically) IQ even thou your preference would be to have him at fullback for Leinster (ahead of Kearney as you have stated numerous times) an Irish province who prides itself on our homegrown players and academy?

I think in this instance Dave's point bears fruit (although unfortunately nacewa could never play for Ireland). I cant think of anyone who I wish could have qualified as a project player more then Nacewa. I remember Shaggy using Isa as the example when the IRFU were introducing their new policy of three years, one position per province on foreign players. He said along the lines that Isa was as much Leinster as anyone else in the dressing room, he put as much into what Leinster was about as anyone else.

I understand you disagree with the rules as they are and maybe you are correct but I think you have to play within the rules. Like we might not like the new scrum rules (or any other) but we cant go out and play the old ones we have to adapt. The residency rule exists maybe it shouldnt but if we can get Richardt Strauss who isnt a mercenary, who came in under the radar and earned our respect then I have no problem him representing my country and spilling blood for it and I will never doubt that he gives 100% on every occasion he pulls on the jersey. If he is getting in a team when he is not as good a player as someone else then I will have an issue the same with the selection of every player.

Again I understand you disagree with the whole thing on project players/residency rules not on individual cases but I think that is a bit naive until the rules/laws change to disallow it. While they are as they are if a player earns my respect he will get it. Bent didnt at the time he got capped and has not since but one day he might and I have no problem with that.

BTW you should definitely play for South Korea if they call you up, we wont judge you.

*Sorry to take the thread away from the liginds*

The difference with the scrums laws is we have no choice but to play them. We can't pick and choose which laws of the game of rugby we want to respect, like kicking the ball straight out when not in the 22 or NFL touch-downs instead of placing the ball on the grass etc and which ones we want to ignore. But we can choose not to go to South Africa and bribe decent, young talent to represent Ireland. The laws may permit it, but we don't have to do it.

I don't quite get the Nacewa reference. Could you explain it again please? It is nice having a sprinkling of foreign talent in our provincial sides, as we could see the benefit of having someone like Nacewa during the November internationals helping the younger guys out, and hopefully Jimmy G. will do likewise. I know everything is done for the benefit of Team Ireland, but Nacewa was the best full-back I ever saw for Leinster. If he was the better of the two - and he was, imho - I would have played him. I'm sure this doesn't answer your point, but I don't really understand it, tbh.

As a matter of interest, if the IRFU relaxed the restrictions on "project player rules" and each of the four provinces signed 4 a piece this summer to become eligible for Ireland at the same time (2017), would you still support it? It is all hypothetical of course, but if Ireland lined up for a November international against South Africa with 12 guys born in Pretoria, would it impact on your support for the national team?

[Oldschool]

Suisse, first up Hugo McNeill was the best FB to play for Leinster. Better than Isa or Rob and probably the best FB to play for Ireland also.
You're splitting hairs about the laws of the game.
Ye signed up Botha pdq because, why exactly. Because it bloody well suited you to do so.
You can, but you may not adopt one set of rules for your provincial team and a different set of rules for the national simply based on expediency.
We don't need foreign players as nanny's and we don't need inferior players being selected for Ireland when there are better IQ players available.
In reality the country is not exactly awash with non national IQ players, who qualify on residency. Bent is IQ by birthright.
Realistically, Strauss, Payne and White are potential match day 23 man squad selections. White will be a short term stop gap until the newbies come thru.
It's up to the provincial academies to produce the players of the quality and quantity we need and that is where the finger should be pointed if we continue into the future to need residential IQs.
Ireland has to remain successful internationally and if residential IQs are required, particularly in the short term, then so be it.

[OTT]

Hypothetically if Nacewa had not of got that Fiji cap (and no All Black caps if uncapped by Fiji) and he came to Ireland and did what he did would you still have played Kearney (or anyone else) at fullback for Ireland post 2011 when Nacewa would have been (again hypothetically) IQ even thou your preference would be to have him at fullback for Leinster (ahead of Kearney as you have stated numerous times) an Irish province who prides itself on our homegrown players and academy?

I think in this instance Dave's point bears fruit (although unfortunately nacewa could never play for Ireland). I cant think of anyone who I wish could have qualified as a project player more then Nacewa. I remember Shaggy using Isa as the example when the IRFU were introducing their new policy of three years, one position per province on foreign players. He said along the lines that Isa was as much Leinster as anyone else in the dressing room, he put as much into what Leinster was about as anyone else.

I understand you disagree with the rules as they are and maybe you are correct but I think you have to play within the rules. Like we might not like the new scrum rules (or any other) but we cant go out and play the old ones we have to adapt. The residency rule exists maybe it shouldnt but if we can get Richardt Strauss who isnt a mercenary, who came in under the radar and earned our respect then I have no problem him representing my country and spilling blood for it and I will never doubt that he gives 100% on every occasion he pulls on the jersey. If he is getting in a team when he is not as good a player as someone else then I will have an issue the same with the selection of every player.

Again I understand you disagree with the whole thing on project players/residency rules not on individual cases but I think that is a bit naive until the rules/laws change to disallow it. While they are as they are if a player earns my respect he will get it. Bent didnt at the time he got capped and has not since but one day he might and I have no problem with that.

BTW you should definitely play for South Korea if they call you up, we wont judge you.

*Sorry to take the thread away from the liginds*

The difference with the scrums laws is we have no choice but to play them. We can't pick and choose which laws of the game of rugby we want to respect, like kicking the ball straight out when not in the 22 or NFL touch-downs instead of placing the ball on the grass etc and which ones we want to ignore. But we can choose not to go to South Africa and bribe decent, young talent to represent Ireland. The laws may permit it, but we don't have to do it.

I don't quite get the Nacewa reference. Could you explain it again please? It is nice having a sprinkling of foreign talent in our provincial sides, as we could see the benefit of having someone like Nacewa during the November internationals helping the younger guys out, and hopefully Jimmy G. will do likewise. I know everything is done for the benefit of Team Ireland, but Nacewa was the best full-back I ever saw for Leinster. If he was the better of the two - and he was, imho - I would have played him. I'm sure this doesn't answer your point, but I don't really understand it, tbh.

As a matter of interest, if the IRFU relaxed the restrictions on "project player rules" and each of the four provinces signed 4 a piece this summer to become eligible for Ireland at the same time (2017), would you still support it? It is all hypothetical of course, but if Ireland lined up for a November international against South Africa with 12 guys born in Pretoria, would it impact on your support for the national team?

The Nacewa thing (again obviously hypothetically)was that if he had of been IQ at the start of the 2011 season (ie no 1min for Fiji and no subsequent All Black caps) you still would have played Gavin Duffy or Denis Hurley, Johnny Murphy etc etc ahead of him for Ireland because you didnt want R. Kearney playing. At the same time you would allow him take up the position of fullback for Leinster a province who historically plays players born in Leinster keeping out Irish (Leinster) talent. As Dave said I just dont think these things are black and white. The gtuy who earns the cap after three years residency usually has earned it the hard way its not like he is a fly by night who has not through his efforts on the pitch got to where he is. I have more issue with the likes of Dylan O'Grady having an Irish cap then Richardt Strauss.

As I see it now we could have 4 project players on our books if we so wished as we could allocate our 3+1 spaces all to project players? No? And if we need to do that it would say more about what we are producing in Ireland so hopefully it wont happen but if it gets to a point where we need 12 Pretoria born players to make us competitive and in doing that they have made Leinster, Munster et all competitive in the previous three seasons then I dont have an issue with it. I dont think it will ever come to that and I hope it doesnt because one of the big draws in supporting Leinster is that we know our players, we know their families, we know their friends, we know friends of their friends. But honestly and maybe this makes me less patriotic then you if Ireland go out and abide by the rules like every other team and play 12 foreign born players in 2017 and are succesful and play decent rugby I will support them more then i have been able to do under the last couple of years under the old regime where I felt ignored and treated like a vegetable as a supporter.


If the residency rule is removed then I will have no problem with that either (I dont love the rule I just think we would be mugs not to use it on occasion like everyone else) as things stand it wont be that hard for us to adapt compared to some other countries becasue currently we have not abused it in my opinion.

[simonokeeffe]

so................. Murray or Botha going to make the panel?

[Bosco]

Murray on the benching I have been told, not sure about Botha

[simonokeeffe]

Murray on the benching I have been told, not sure about Botha

I believe Murray on the benching is an old Hank Williams song

[Alternative Ulster]

I heard BJ too. O'Mahony Ronan Cawlin back row. Williams at 9

[ceemec]

I'll be happy enough to see Ronan start against us. He's a good player but simply isn't physical enough especially if SOB is starting the game. I could be wrong but I think in about 6 starts against Leinster, Ronan has never beaten them. I find the breakdown is always the crucial aspect of this game and if Leinster can get on top physically then we've a good chance of pinching a win down there.

I still reckon that it's Munster's game just about though.

[Donny B.]

I'll be happy enough to see Ronan start against us. He's a good player but simply isn't physical enough especially if SOB is starting the game. I could be wrong but I think in about 6 starts against Leinster, Ronan has never beaten them. I find the breakdown is always the crucial aspect of this game and if Leinster can get on top physically then we've a good chance of pinching a win down there.

I still reckon that it's Munster's game just about though.

Sorry, he started the Munster 22-5 win in Thomond Park in 09.

[ceemec]

Damn you to hell, Donny.

Exception that proves the rule!

[simonokeeffe]

Ronan is very like Martyn Williams, great continuity, intelligence, link play, passing, support etc but when up against a world class 7 (gen a bit bigger) gets beaten up

[Donny B.]

Damn you to hell, Donny.

Exception that proves the rule!

The bould suisse was lecturing everyone at this time how much better he was than Shane Jennings. Fecking Meath mafia watching each other's backs!

[johng]

Listened to Wed Night Rugby on the way home. Thought they were mad when they said it would be the first time Leinster beat Munster 3 times in a row (if they win on Sat) since the 70s, but they must have meant 3 times in a row in Thomond.

[simonokeeffe]

Listened to Wed Night Rugby on the way home. Thought they were mad when they said it would be the first time Leinster beat Munster 3 times in a row (if they win on Sat) since the 70s, but they must have meant 3 times in a row in Thomond.

if we win hopefully Jerry Flannery's moustache will never be shown on television again

[suisse]

Suisse, first up Hugo McNeill was the best FB to play for Leinster. Better than Isa or Rob and probably the best FB to play for Ireland also. I am not a relic like yourself Oldschool, I may be barely hanging onto my 20's, but still there. Please check the wording of what i said: "but Nacewa was the best full-back I ever saw for Leinster" - "I ever saw" being key there
You're splitting hairs about the laws of the game. That's not true - one we absolutely must follow, one we don't need/have to
Ye signed up Botha pdq because, why exactly. Because it bloody well suited you to do so. At what point did you ever think I was a Munster fan? Because I don't think a certain Leinster player should have played for Ireland?
You can, but you may not adopt one set of rules for your provincial team and a different set of rules for the national simply based on expediency.
We don't need foreign players as nanny's and we don't need inferior players being selected for Ireland when there are better IQ players available. Yet again, missing the point. Was Strauss superior to other Irish hookers when he was bribed by the IRFU to play for Ireland 4 years ago? I am not, and have not, been talking about Strauss in 2013 - the issue goes back to the first time players like Strauss and Stander are approached.
In reality the country is not exactly awash with non national IQ players, who qualify on residency. Bent is IQ by birthright.
Realistically, Strauss, Payne and White are potential match day 23 man squad selections. White will be a short term stop gap until the newbies come thru.
It's up to the provincial academies to produce the players of the quality and quantity we need and that is where the finger should be pointed if we continue into the future to need residential IQs.
Ireland has to remain successful internationally and if residential IQs are required, particularly in the short term, then so be it. Again, missing the point

The only thing I wanna know is, why are you comfortable knowing the IRFU approaches talent developed in other countries to play test rugby for Ireland, a country they have no link to? I'm not talking about Richardt Strauss in 2012 when he became available - I am talking about the issue of scouring the globe (mainly SA ) to hunt down talent to play for us. That is my major disagreement with the Project Player rule. Very few people are willing to accept this part, or answer it. I don't care about Strauss' "Irishness" or his Irishness compared to Michael Bent. Or about paying taxes in this country, or buying his groceries at Dunnes Stores. I am fully aware of the contribution Strauss has made to Irish rugby. For me, it is the part when someone from the IRFU says to a good young player flying under the radar in South Africa that 99% of Irish rugby fans have never heard of and say; "Hey, would you like to sign a two year contract with an Irish province and, if you are successful, sign an extension allowing you to play international rugby for Ireland?" For both the game in Ireland and the game in South Africa, it is completely wrong. The rest of your post is irrelevant to this.

[suisse]

The Nacewa thing (again obviously hypothetically)was that if he had of been IQ at the start of the 2011 season (ie no 1min for Fiji and no subsequent All Black caps) you still would have played Gavin Duffy or Denis Hurley, Johnny Murphy etc etc ahead of him for Ireland because you didnt want R. Kearney playing. At the same time you would allow him take up the position of fullback for Leinster a province who historically plays players born in Leinster keeping out Irish (Leinster) talent. As Dave said I just dont think these things are black and white. The gtuy who earns the cap after three years residency usually has earned it the hard way its not like he is a fly by night who has not through his efforts on the pitch got to where he is. I have more issue with the likes of Dylan O'Grady having an Irish cap then Richardt Strauss. I see what you mean now. The problem I have been trying to explain to others - and just to Oldschool now - is the moment when an IRFU rep. says to a player living in another country with no ancestral links to Ireland whatsoever; "Would you like to play international rugby for Ireland?" It is the idea of buying players to represent our national team that I don't agree with. Who are we to go to South Africa and poach a player brought entirely through their ranks from underage, schools, uni, clubs and pro teams and offer when an international cap to move to Ireland? Is there not something morally wrong with that?

I would also wonder what the reaction here would be if NZ approached someone like..... JJ Hanrahan or Chris Farrell and said "Here's a three year deal with the Chiefs. We want you play rugby for New Zealand!!" - would that not be acceptable?

There is a certain hypocrisy to it all as well. Constant bitching about NZ apparently stealing Pacific Island talent.

As for Kearney, tough luck. If you're not playing well enough, then so be it. If Kearney was still our best option nationally, then we have a problem if he's not playing in that position for his club. But we shouldn't be buying players to play for Ireland to get us out of a hole. I'm sure some people don't see the difference - but there is one between Leinster signing a run of the mill pro like Andrew Goodman and Ireland paying someone to play for us.

As I see it now we could have 4 project players on our books if we so wished as we could allocate our 3+1 spaces all to project players? No? And if we need to do that it would say more about what we are producing in Ireland so hopefully it wont happen but if it gets to a point where we need 12 Pretoria born players to make us competitive and in doing that they have made Leinster, Munster et all competitive in the previous three seasons then I dont have an issue with it. I dont think it will ever come to that and I hope it doesnt because one of the big draws in supporting Leinster is that we know our players, we know their families, we know their friends, we know friends of their friends. But honestly and maybe this makes me less patriotic then you if Ireland go out and abide by the rules like every other team and play 12 foreign born players in 2017 and are succesful and play decent rugby I will support them more then i have been able to do under the last couple of years under the old regime where I felt ignored and treated like a vegetable as a supporter.


If the residency rule is removed then I will have no problem with that either (I dont love the rule I just think we would be mugs not to use it on occasion like everyone else) as things stand it wont be that hard for us to adapt compared to some other countries becasue currently we have not abused it in my opinion.

[suisse]

Damn you to hell, Donny.

Exception that proves the rule!

The bould suisse was lecturing everyone at this time how much better he was than Shane Jennings. Fecking Meath mafia watching each other's backs!

You wrote this in 2007.

I'd be devastated if Ronan leaves for Munster. He's the best openside I've seen in 30 years. Slattery, Gleeson and Jennings. No comparison. He's to Leinster what Stevie G is to Liverpool. The others are to Leinster what El-Hadji Diouf was to Liverpool

[ceemec]

I'm going to presume those comments were very tongue in cheek!