Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

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FLIP
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by FLIP »

kermischocolate wrote:
FLIP wrote:
HMRC could choose to audit Saracens and the players any time they want. They don't have much of a threshold required to do it.
I know. But why would they unless they had a specific reason to? I just wonder what else is revealed by the books that it needs to be hidden?
HMRC regularly picks on small businesses for no specific reason.
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fourthirtythree
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by fourthirtythree »

Saracens may be a medium sized business but they have access to the financial arrangements of a far bigger business and the sociopathic billionaire class's attitude to the law. HMRC don't have the resources to deal with that effectively, that's entirely a political call rather than a procedural call.
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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

The Doc wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:It really is - I'd say, based it must be said on supposition and lot of adding 2+2, that Saracens are wildly over the Salary Cap, far more than the 2million that is being posited. If they were 'only' the 2 mill that everyone reckons, then they wouldn't have a problem with an audit - but the situation where they are willing to take any punishment over opening their books?
The only caveat... The offer apparently was to open the books AND give back their titles.

While still strange they took the relegation, I can sort of see why they don't want to be erased from the history books



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You're right it was the books and hand back the trophies to avoid automatic relegation.
They chose not to and destroy the club. Which leads me to guess is it was more opening up the books that was the problem. Not the trophies.

I reckon we haven't heard the end if this and maybe someday someone might reveal all but I understand completely the anger towards them from other clubs.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Hornet »

I wonder that, if and when Saracens do get in a position to be promoted back to the top flight that PR and the other Club Chairmen will insist on a full forensic audit of their books, not only for that season, but for the seasons that they were in breach of the Salary Cap rules, and any non-compliance would see them remain in the Championship. As I have posted before, Saracens have been suspected of playing fast and loose with the Cap since 2004.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sarace ... 53247.html

For it to have taken so long for the powers that be to take action on this beggars belief. I personally think that there is a strong possibility that we may never see Saracens at the top level of English and European Rugby again. As someone whose first ever live Rugby game that I went to, was Saracens at Vicarage Road in 1999, I find it disappointing that Nigel Wray has effectively destroyed the club with his arrogance and win at all costs mentality. It's not a well supported side, never has been, and Wray seemed to have a way of rubbing up some of his supporters the wrong way in the early days, (closing off the supporters club bar for his corporate friends was one). Two friends of mine changed their allegiances to Wasps due to the direction the club was taking. When it came to the Relegation debate Wray was pro ring fencing in the very early days. (I still have a Saracens v Rotherham program in which he strongly advocated removing Relegation. If it had occurred at that time, there would be no Exeter Chiefs in the Prem).

On the odd occasion when I've headed back to London and Saracens have been at home I've popped along to watch them. But since the last couple of times at Wembley and the American Football style Razzmatazz, and being surrounded by people who haven't the first notion about Rugby, (they were there for Tiny Tempah or Right Said Fred!) I've not bothered (apart for the Leinster games). It's a sorry state of affairs but they deserve their punishment. They need to feel contrite and to be absolutely honest. The fact they are taking relegation as opposed to opening the books shows me they still have a lot of skeletons in the cupboard.
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Twist
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Twist »

Hornet wrote:I wonder that, if and when Saracens do get in a position to be promoted back to the top flight that PR and the other Club Chairmen will insist on a full forensic audit of their books, not only for that season, but for the seasons that they were in breach of the Salary Cap rules, and any non-compliance would see them remain in the Championship. As I have posted before, Saracens have been suspected of playing fast and loose with the Cap since 2004.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sarace ... 53247.html

For it to have taken so long for the powers that be to take action on this beggars belief. I personally think that there is a strong possibility that we may never see Saracens at the top level of English and European Rugby again. As someone whose first ever live Rugby game that I went to, was Saracens at Vicarage Road in 1999, I find it disappointing that Nigel Wray has effectively destroyed the club with his arrogance and win at all costs mentality. It's not a well supported side, never has been, and Wray seemed to have a way of rubbing up some of his supporters the wrong way in the early days, (closing off the supporters club bar for his corporate friends was one). Two friends of mine changed their allegiances to Wasps due to the direction the club was taking. When it came to the Relegation debate Wray was pro ring fencing in the very early days. (I still have a Saracens v Rotherham program in which he strongly advocated removing Relegation. If it had occurred at that time, there would be no Exeter Chiefs in the Prem).

On the odd occasion when I've headed back to London and Saracens have been at home I've popped along to watch them. But since the last couple of times at Wembley and the American Football style Razzmatazz, and being surrounded by people who haven't the first notion about Rugby, (they were there for Tiny Tempah or Right Said Fred!) I've not bothered (apart for the Leinster games). It's a sorry state of affairs but they deserve their punishment. They need to feel contrite and to be absolutely honest. The fact they are taking relegation as opposed to opening the books shows me they still have a lot of skeletons in the cupboard.
It's actually spelled 'Skelton'

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ronk
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by ronk »

Saracens v PRL + the other clubs.

Can they both lose?

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Hornet »

Saracens refuse to refund their season-ticket holders despite guaranteed Premiership relegation.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... on-1371953

What shocked me about this is the top priced season ticket is priced at £1130! For Allianz Park!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
"The one thing we learn from History, is that we never learn from History".

taxmandave
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by taxmandave »

We'll they had to pay the players somehow!

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Dave Cahill »

Hornet wrote:Saracens refuse to refund their season-ticket holders despite guaranteed Premiership relegation.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... on-1371953

What shocked me about this is the top priced season ticket is priced at £1130! For Allianz Park!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
The top priced season ticket for the RDS is €1289
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Twist
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Twist »

A refrain I keep hearing is 'the players have done nothing wrong.' That doesn't stand up to even a minute's thought.

To believe that you have to believe that Saracens players;

- Were convinced to set up their investment companies and accept money that way, or via a vineyard in South Africa or whatever other backdoor routes were used, rather than just receiving a salary like a normal person AND

- That they looked around the dressing room and saw an agglomeration of talent that no other Premiership club could come close to matching even while reaching the limits of the salary cap AND

- That for some reason their club didn't want to deal with agents

and with those factors in mind they never averted to the likelihood that the rules were being broken. That's not credible. The kindest interpretation is that they were wilfully deceiving themselves.

I'm not saying they carry the primary culpability here. Im not saying they should carry personal suspensions or anything like that. I'm just saying that 'they did nothing wrong' stretches credibility beyond breaking point. There's no way they didn't know something was wrong. If they didn't know it's because they didn't want to and avoided finding out. That's 'doing something wrong.'

Put another way; we all knew.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Dave Cahill »

So, an hour or two after the Sarries chairman claims that Sarries have no problem with the judgement against them being released, Prem Rugby are calling their bluff by stating that they are, therefore, preparing the judgement for release.

This sh!t is like game of thrones with fewer dragons but more tits
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Oldschool »

Twist wrote:A refrain I keep hearing is 'the players have done nothing wrong.' That doesn't stand up to even a minute's thought.

To believe that you have to believe that Saracens players;

- Were convinced to set up their investment companies and accept money that way, or via a vineyard in South Africa or whatever other backdoor routes were used, rather than just receiving a salary like a normal person AND

- That they looked around the dressing room and saw an agglomeration of talent that no other Premiership club could come close to matching even while reaching the limits of the salary cap AND

- That for some reason their club didn't want to deal with agents

and with those factors in mind they never averted to the likelihood that the rules were being broken. That's not credible. The kindest interpretation is that they were wilfully deceiving themselves.

I'm not saying they carry the primary culpability here. Im not saying they should carry personal suspensions or anything like that. I'm just saying that 'they did nothing wrong' stretches credibility beyond breaking point. There's no way they didn't know something was wrong. If they didn't know it's because they didn't want to and avoided finding out. That's 'doing something wrong.'

Put another way; we all knew.
When you hear the phrase "did nothing wrong" you know there's something wrong.
Economy of the truth, omission or incomplete disclosure, redirection, distraction, looking the other way that sort of thing usually figure.
I knew something was going on but as I wasn't involved I don't know anything about it. (Nor did I try to find out)
I'd heard rumours but sure you know yourself.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by heno »

If this escalates to the point of they have to hand back their trophies, what do we think would happen? Would exeter become champion as runner up, or just no winner, or what?
Is there a precedent in other team sports?

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Twist
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Twist »

heno wrote:If this escalates to the point of they have to hand back their trophies, what do we think would happen? Would exeter become champion as runner up, or just no winner, or what?
Is there a precedent in other team sports?

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I’d say those titles would just be vacant, like the Tour de France

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Dave Cahill »

heno wrote:If this escalates to the point of they have to hand back their trophies, what do we think would happen? Would exeter become champion as runner up, or just no winner, or what?
Is there a precedent in other team sports?
Hard to know - after Calciopoli Juventus were stripped of the 04/05 and 05/06 titles. The former wasn't re-awarded (runners-up Milan were also implicated), the latter was awarded to Inter after a judicial review
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ronk
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by ronk »

How would we feel about getting a star that way?

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Xanthippe »

Dave Cahill wrote:
Hornet wrote:Saracens refuse to refund their season-ticket holders despite guaranteed Premiership relegation.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... on-1371953

What shocked me about this is the top priced season ticket is priced at £1130! For Allianz Park!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
The top priced season ticket for the RDS is €1289
To be fair that €1289 with Leinster is the price for a family of 4

Our season tickets range from €299 to €749 for adults whereas Saracens range from £300 to £1130
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by locho »

Dave Cahill wrote:So, an hour or two after the Sarries chairman claims that Sarries have no problem with the judgement against them being released, Prem Rugby are calling their bluff by stating that they are, therefore, preparing the judgement for release.

This sh!t is like game of thrones with fewer dragons but more tits
:clap: :clap: :clap:

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by nc6000 »

ronk wrote:How would we feel about getting a star that way?
Doesn't bother Clermont according to Gerry Thornley yesterday :

" Clermont have also written to the Champions Cup organisers ECPR (European Club Professional Rugby) demanding that Saracens be stripped of their title in 2017 and the trophy be awarded to them. It’s a long shot, but no doubt Leinster will be watching that one with interest! "

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Twist »

nc6000 wrote:
ronk wrote:How would we feel about getting a star that way?
Doesn't bother Clermont according to Gerry Thornley yesterday :

" Clermont have also written to the Champions Cup organisers ECPR (European Club Professional Rugby) demanding that Saracens be stripped of their title in 2017 and the trophy be awarded to them. It’s a long shot, but no doubt Leinster will be watching that one with interest! "
I do think there’s a case for stripping them of their titles but wouldn’t want one added to our total that way

If Claremont feel differently that’s up to them. I wouldn’t withhold it from them, I just don’t want it for us

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