Pro 12 - General Thread

[Peg Leg]

Away to Heidleberg in October.
Just sayin....

Guaranteed to be a real sausage fest.

Ich bin ein Heidleberger

[ronk]

In the short term who'd play for them. The top German players aren't doing much, there are a few scatters around div 2 in France.

The normal path to prep them would be to have a few friendlies at club or international level to start gauging interest and potential.

It's different for the Italians, they have the 6N. A German club would be more dependent on building crowds and importing players.

An odd number of teams is hard too.

[rooster]

There has been a lot of cr@p spouted in the press for the last year about American sides, SA sides and just about everyone else plus this conference system and most of this rubbish is coming from Scotland who would like number of matches cut and have the backing of the Welsh in that part as well.
It defies all logic to cut match numbers unless it is more than compensated by a serious TV deal and that is pretty dubious, don't have full figures but the drop in gate money by Ulster would be around £300k per match lost, drop 3 matches and a league expanded to 15 sides would need over £15 million extra from TV to compensate.

[Oldschool]

Away to Heidleberg in October.
Just sayin....

Guaranteed to be a real sausage fest.

Ich bin ein Heidleburger

Fixed

[dropkick]

There has been a lot of cr@p spouted in the press for the last year about American sides, SA sides and just about everyone else plus this conference system and most of this rubbish is coming from Scotland who would like number of matches cut and have the backing of the Welsh in that part as well.
It defies all logic to cut match numbers unless it is more than compensated by a serious TV deal and that is pretty dubious, don't have full figures but the drop in gate money by Ulster would be around £300k per match lost, drop 3 matches and a league expanded to 15 sides would need over £15 million extra from TV to compensate.

I think they want about 4 less regular season matches. That's 2 home matches.


I'd agree with that. Looking at the positive side, it could attract more fans to the other matches if the star players are playing more often. Less matches means players are less likely to get injured and you might not need as big a squad, therefore saving money that way.


Most of all I think it's to stop A teams playing during the international windows. Personally I like seeing the next generation being given a chance but those type of matches are damaging for the leagues reputation.


I think the expansion is the right thing to do. I remember celtic and rangers in the 90s and early 00s being able to outbid premier league sides for players. Now look at them. I think being at the forefront of a new European league will prevent that. There'll be plenty of hurdles but I see it as being an investment. The potential tv market dwarfs the English and French.


I see a South African site mentioned that the SA rugby president, Jourie Roux, has been meeting with pro12 officials and an announcement is expected in July. They also say the Kings might not be dropped from super rugby because of political reasons.

[ronk]

Automatic qualification for Europe is gone, so it's sorted

[rooster]

Dropping matches that normally would involve A team players drops number in squad and also the number potentially available for the national sides as less players will come through the system, IRFU will not let star players play more matches so I don't see attendance improving for other matches to make up the loss

[Dave Cahill]

Dropping matches that normally would involve A team players drops number in squad and also the number potentially available for the national sides as less players will come through the system, IRFU will not let star players play more matches so I don't see attendance improving for other matches to make up the loss

Of course not, it's idiotic to suggest otherwise.

The IRFU will not tolerate any reorganisation that reduces the number of home games for the provinces

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[Dave Cahill]

Losing just two games a season from the schedule would cost the IRFU a figure that I conservatively estimate to approach 9 million Euro per season

[rooster]

Dropping matches that normally would involve A team players drops number in squad and also the number potentially available for the national sides as less players will come through the system, IRFU will not let star players play more matches so I don't see attendance improving for other matches to make up the loss

Of course not, it's idiotic to suggest otherwise.

The IRFU will not tolerate any reorganisation that reduces the number of home games for the provinces

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

I wouldn't put the house on that Dave unless you have heard they are definitely now opposed as they were in the reduced fixture mode a few months ago.

[Dave Cahill]

Dropping matches that normally would involve A team players drops number in squad and also the number potentially available for the national sides as less players will come through the system, IRFU will not let star players play more matches so I don't see attendance improving for other matches to make up the loss

Of course not, it's idiotic to suggest otherwise.

The IRFU will not tolerate any reorganisation that reduces the number of home games for the provinces

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

I wouldn't put the house on that Dave unless you have heard they are definitely now opposed as they were in the reduced fixture mode a few months ago.

The IRFU are not going to throw money away. Losing two home games per team would mean that two Munster games in Thomond Park (the games in Cork are ringfenced), the two Leinster games in the Aviva (the RDS games are ringfenced), plus two games in Kingspan and the Sportsground get cut. That is, as I say above, a conservatively estimated 9 million euro (purely in ticket revenue alone btw) that is flushed down the toilet.

[ronk]

It was one extra game in each of Cork and Limerick when the Italian's joined. But maybe the situation changed when they developed Musgrave.

The Scots and Welsh probably don't do so well but it's not like they pick their internationals either

The pieces aren't in place for conferences and taking the idea seriously is counterproductive.

Organic growth is the best option for all the countries in the Pro12, anything that distracts from that is a negative, both because of the missed opportunity and the cost of damaging our own product by disrespecting it.

[rooster]

Of course not, it's idiotic to suggest otherwise.

The IRFU will not tolerate any reorganisation that reduces the number of home games for the provinces

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

I wouldn't put the house on that Dave unless you have heard they are definitely now opposed as they were in the reduced fixture mode a few months ago.

The IRFU are not going to throw money away. Losing two home games per team would mean that two Munster games in Thomond Park (the games in Cork are ringfenced), the two Leinster games in the Aviva (the RDS games are ringfenced), plus two games in Kingspan and the Sportsground get cut. That is, as I say above, a conservatively estimated 9 million euro (purely in ticket revenue alone btw) that is flushed down the toilet.

Well it has been mentioned at management committee level and IRFU were in favour of the reduced matches on player welfare grounds.
I agree with you though Dave in that it is totally crazy, no doubt IRFU are thinking of keeping season tickets at same price and telling the punters that matches will be higher quality to make up for the missing matches.

[simonokeeffe]

more/bigger players being available for other league games would hopefully increase attendence and increased quality would hopefully appeal to broadcasters and sponsors, but would depend on when those deals were renewed

[Munsterboy]

Any analysis of reducing to 10 teams needs to look at which team we're talking about dropping.

So let's say the Italians are sent packing, what would the impact be on Munster, your favourite cash strapped country cousins?

Attendance at Thomond for each game against the Italians in 16/17 was about 12k. The quoted numbers include season ticket holders so let's say, for argument's sake, there were about 5k non season ticket holders at each (that's probably optimistic).

Losing those two games would mean 10k tickets at average of, say, 30 Euro a pop. 300k is not small beans but it's not huge either.

However, add another 200k to allow for decreased season ticket revenue (I don't think the number would fall but the price would have to be reduced) and now you're talking 0.5M - the cost of a marquee signing.

Corporate stuff is maybe another 50-100k. That's a guess but I doubt there's huge demand around these matches.

Sponsors and advertising money will take a hit too. No idea how much but again, these are the lowest profile fixtures.

Impact on the TV deals would be affected but it's hard to say how much. These games are the least popular with broadcasters and fixtures could be eliminated during times like the 6Ns, when interest is elsewhere anyway. The quality of the remaining games would also go up.

All in all I doubt the impact would be much more than 1M per province per season. It's significant but you also have to look at the benefits: fewer noses in the trough, reduced travel costs, reduced squad numbers, better quality league etc.

Might not be so hard to offset the losses and could help grow the league in the long run. Right now the Italians are a bit of an embarrassment.

[Dave Cahill]

more/bigger players being available for other league games would hopefully increase attendence and increased quality would hopefully appeal to broadcasters and sponsors, but would depend on when those deals were renewed

Those players wouldn't be available though, we'd just use those other games to give gametime to the Leinster lite players and increase the rest periods for our internationals - have you never seen an Irish coach in action? Hopefully that might not be the case, but we know it will be.

Plus, those other games aren't magic games just pulled out of Martin Anayi's ass, they're games that are already being played, and already being played with the bigger players being as available as the national coach allows - which won't change. So where do these increased attendances, revenues and quality come from?

[Dave Cahill]

Any analysis of reducing to 10 teams needs to look at which team we're talking about dropping.

So let's say the Italians are sent packing, what would the impact be on Munster, your favourite cash strapped country cousins?

Attendance at Thomond for each game against the Italians in 16/17 was about 12k. The quoted numbers include season ticket holders so let's say, for argument's sake, there were about 5k non season ticket holders at each (that's probably optimistic).

Losing those two games would mean 10k tickets at average of, say, 30 Euro a pop. 300k is not small beans but it's not huge either.

However, add another 200k to allow for decreased season ticket revenue (I don't think the number would fall but the price would have to be reduced) and now you're talking 0.5M - the cost of a marquee signing.

Corporate stuff is maybe another 50-100k. That's a guess but I doubt there's huge demand around these matches.

Sponsors and advertising money will take a hit too. No idea how much but again, these are the lowest profile fixtures.

Impact on the TV deals would be affected but it's hard to say how much. These games are the least popular with broadcasters and fixtures could be eliminated during times like the 6Ns, when interest is elsewhere anyway. The quality of the remaining games would also go up.

All in all I doubt the impact would be much more than 1M per province per season. It's significant but you also have to look at the benefits: fewer noses in the trough, reduced travel costs, reduced squad numbers, better quality league etc.

Might not be so hard to offset the losses and could help grow the league in the long run. Right now the Italians are a bit of an embarrassment.

A lot of your figures though aren't really that accurate

Just as an example

all in all I doubt the impact would be much more than 1M per province per season

Leinster generate well over 6 million euro in revenue from the two Aviva games. So you're over 5 million out there for a start.

Corporate stuff is maybe another 50-100k. That's a guess but I doubt there's huge demand around these matches.

There is actually a very high demand around these matches from the SME sector. Reduced prices has increased demand from companies who can't afford to run a package for customers at one of the 'big' games but can afford to do so at a fixture like this - after all most of the 'corporate' attendees don't care about the game, just 'the do'.

[simonokeeffe]

more/bigger players being available for other league games would hopefully increase attendence and increased quality would hopefully appeal to broadcasters and sponsors, but would depend on when those deals were renewed

Those players wouldn't be available though, we'd just use those other games to give gametime to the Leinster lite players and increase the rest periods for our internationals - have you never seen an Irish coach in action? Hopefully that might not be the case, but we know it will be.

Plus, those other games aren't magic games just pulled out of Martin Anayi's ass, they're games that are already being played, and already being played with the bigger players being as available as the national coach allows - which won't change. So where do these increased attendances, revenues and quality come from?

Its a very scientific model of league games become less sh¥t and its knock on effects

Return of A 6n makes up revenue shortfall for union

[Dave Cahill]

Its a very scientific model of league games become less sh¥t and its knock on effects

Return of A 6n makes up revenue shortfall for union

So, in other words, games that already exist, with players that are already available generating far more revenue for no reason whatsoever backed up by a tournament that doesn't exist are what you think we should bank on.

Okay.


Just because the u20s are no longer a disqualifying level doesn't mean that teams will re-instate their A teams or enter a 6 Nations A competition. Wales never had any problems putting out an u20s side against Ireland. Scotland or England, but could barely scrape together a squad against France or Italy. Conversely Scotland A found it very difficult to put together a squad to take on the Wolfhounds and the Saxons but didn't against the others. Because Scottish and Welsh players, in particular, aren't going to disqualify themselves for anything less than a full cap.

[simonokeeffe]

I never said bank on
Im just offering a possible upside

If quality, atmosphere etc of league games improve more people would probably go to league games.

There is a media and casual fan perception issue with the league. Bigger average crowds and internationals playing a higher percentage of games would help with that to some extent