Toulon's Mourad Boudjellal and the European League

[artaneboy]

Why don't people just embrace the Pro12?

Because it isn't very good and it's getting worse each season.

How come for example the England players were back starting for their clubs last weekend but the Irish ones weren't? The IRFU have made it pretty clear that resting their internationals after the Six Nations comes ahead of any league matches their teams play in.

To almost completely separate points; one just wrong- the other weak.

For a start, the league this year is much more exciting than it has been in a long time- and its more exciting and close than the steroid pumped French and English equivalents. The Cinderella story of Connacht, and comparisons with Leicester in soccer, may be cliched- but they are not inaccurate. The Oligarchs Cup has been boring in comparison- even before we bombed out of it.

And whether or not players are 'rested' has no serious bearing on the quality of the league as a competition. Back to the old saw- its 'rotation' (a good thing) when its England/ France clubs doing it- but when the IRFU try to ensure player welfare by introducing a coherent system, the usual voices rise up to condemn it as 'resting' (a bad thing).

[nc6000]

And whether or not players are 'rested' has no serious bearing on the quality of the league as a competition. Back to the old saw- its 'rotation' (a good thing) when its England/ France clubs doing it- but when the IRFU try to ensure player welfare by introducing a coherent system, the usual voices rise up to condemn it as 'resting' (a bad thing).

So a match with first in the league playing second in the league basically minus any starting Ireland internationals doesn't have a bearing on the quality of the league?

Nonsense.

[artaneboy]

And whether or not players are 'rested' has no serious bearing on the quality of the league as a competition. Back to the old saw- its 'rotation' (a good thing) when its England/ France clubs doing it- but when the IRFU try to ensure player welfare by introducing a coherent system, the usual voices rise up to condemn it as 'resting' (a bad thing).

So a match with first in the league playing second in the league basically minus any starting Ireland internationals doesn't have a bearing on the quality of the league?

Nonsense.

No- what is nonsense is seeking to equate the quality of the play to the standard of competition solely on starts or bench appearances. The standard of play in many of the games where the "stars" didn't come out has not been impressive. The opposite has frequently been the case where the big names have failed to either raise the standard or even play well themselves. That's how some have actually gone down in the pecking order.

And I notice you didn't chose to address my first point on the evident excitement and competitiveness of the race for the title and qualification spots at all. Not surprising really, there's not much you could say to the contrary.

[Ruckedtobits]

Despit my initial reluctance to another 'new competition' concept, this one may have lots to recommend it.


Consider than our island market is probably 6.5m and rugby is probably no better than 3rd sport (in terms of supporter spent in country). If we could get three and conceivably four teams into a Pan-European Club competition where England, France, Italy, Wales,Scotland, Romania & Georgia have potential to play, the TV rights value accelerates and gets divided among participants. Subject to how it is marketed and administered, the cake could grow and the slices could be richer.

Pro12 potential is limited unless Italy grows in rugby success and audience interest. Theres no other way the value can grow, regardless of the fare. We might get incremental growth by improvement in spectacle - Pitches, Players, commentators, Presentation, officials etc. - but that would contribute max 15%, without new potential audience.

My gut reaction is to go for the challenge. We will develop the players, our substitute for a sugar daddy, we have the facilities and we always become competitive.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

[dropkick]

Huge changes in store for PRO12 rugby as brass consider new clubs, conferences and Six Nations break
http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/huge-chan ... sion/72377


To sum up. Make it into conferences, add more teams/markets, stop playing during international windows, less matches but of higher quality.
Thoughts?


Sounds good to me. They could have a western and eastern europe conferences with the eastern europe one being a development. That could potentially allow other european teams a gateway into professional rugby, which would be the start of a European super league. Less games is good too because they'll be of higher quality.


The Pro12 in its current state is actually better than people say. For whatever reason, people can only see negative things about it and nothing positive. Its probably because the other leagues have more money and are missing players less. The Pro12 should not be underestimated. Leave the whinging to the Welsh.

[Flash Gordon]

Why don't people just embrace the Pro12?

Because it isn't very good and it's getting worse each season.

How come for example the England players were back starting for their clubs last weekend but the Irish ones weren't? The IRFU have made it pretty clear that resting their internationals after the Six Nations comes ahead of any league matches their teams play in.

To almost completely separate points; one just wrong- the other weak.

For a start, the league this year is much more exciting than it has been in a long time- and its more exciting and close than the steroid pumped French and English equivalents. The Cinderella story of Connacht, and comparisons with Leicester in soccer, may be cliched- but they are not inaccurate. The Oligarchs Cup has been boring in comparison- even before we bombed out of it.

And whether or not players are 'rested' has no serious bearing on the quality of the league as a competition. Back to the old saw- its 'rotation' (a good thing) when its England/ France clubs doing it- but when the IRFU try to ensure player welfare by introducing a coherent system, the usual voices rise up to condemn it as 'resting' (a bad thing).

We can argue here all day about the quality of league but sponsors don't value it as a top tier competition, TV doesn't value it and attendances are declining. Additionally, the top players talk about it as if its a consolation prize sometimes. Watching the game on Saturday, you're looking at two of the best teams in the league and one won because one was marginally less average than the other.

It's not just the players to be honest, it's also the level of coaching and even the officials.

With regard to the international break mentioned above, it does have an impact - watching Leinster reserves trounce Zebra in front of an empty stadium isn't great to be honest.

I think this format less the "guest" idea would be interesting. Failing that I think the Pro 12 should break during the 6 Nations and maybe try to organise an anglo Irish cup or something for the second strings.

Either way, if we continue as is we're looking at a steady decline in our ability to compete at the highest level.

[simonokeeffe]

a slight downside of the conference system for us would be (if I'm right) no more games in landsdowne road due to nature of contract with RDS

Welsh though would love more judgement day games at headquarters

[blockhead]

Actually attendances have been rising year on year almost every year since the league began. The last 4-5 years have seen a modest but constant rise in overall attendance, breaking the 1M barrier for the last 3 seasons. This year may see a slight decline but in a WC year the league got off to a slow start and other leagues seem to have suffered similarly.

[Ruckedtobits]

Pro12 needs to do a lot re presentation of the product. Too many pitches look (and are) cr@p surfaces. Level of refereeing is too variable. Crowds are neither "corralled" nor disguised in empty spaces, unlike Premiership and some Super Rugby games.

We could also do with going to French bonus point systems where you must have 3 tries more than opposition to get bonus point. Would be happy also for Pro12 to applly to World Rugby to trial Penalty goal at 2 points (Trials re scoring systems require very little lobbying as they are not really law changes).

A bit of work on marketing. Consider a roundrobin play-off system with Romanian and Georgian National teams, playing as Bucharest Wolves and Tbilisi Bears, for slot in Pro12 - subject to bringing sponsorship of €2m to the pot. European rugby can grow if encouraged. Yes, IRFU might fear that we could lose out at some point, but that's the price of progress.

Whether supporters have to take a Ryanair flight to Parma or Bucharest is immaterial. So long as teams can get to those venues, the home supporters will provide the atmosphere.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Would be happy also for Pro12 to applly to World Rugby to trial Penalty goal at 2 points (Trials re scoring systems require very little lobbying as they are not really law changes).

No, no and a 1,000 times no.

If you reduce the penalty to only two points you just increase the temptation for a defending team to give away penalties, as you are reducing the sanction. I'd love to see an experiment reinstating the try to four points, and increasing the penalty to four points - just to see what happened. I think you'd probably have a reduction in penalties and hopefully an increase in trys.

[Ruckedtobits]

Would be happy also for Pro12 to applly to World Rugby to trial Penalty goal at 2 points (Trials re scoring systems require very little lobbying as they are not really law changes).

No, no and a 1,000 times no.

If you reduce the penalty to only two points you just increase the temptation for a defending team to give away penalties, as you are reducing the sanction. I'd love to see an experiment reinstating the try to four points, and increasing the penalty to four points - just to see what happened. I think you'd probably have a reduction in penalties and hopefully an increase in trys.

I agree that that would be initial response but I believe that effectiveness or kick / maul would rapidly convince defenders that the risk / reward is not worth the concession. However, I acknowledge the risk.