Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[JB1973]

To be honest, it seems plausible to me and having read the report he's got a lot of evidence to back up his story. It's a big mistake from the pharmacy, because if you're giving the wrong drugs to a seriously ill and elderly patient rather than an absolute bull of a twenty-something you could have done a lot more damage than a rap across the knuckles from EPCR.

I was on something similar back in January. I had a bad dose of the flu in late December/early January which just kept on getting worse and worse and I was so run down that I eventually got pneumonia. I was put on a pretty massive and very long dose of antibiotics and a load of little steroid pills. I think it was something like 4no. every 4 hours for five days or something like that.

The EPCR verdict is right enough. It was an honest mistake, but he was careless and showed no sense of responsibility for what he was taking.

It's too much for me to take at face value not to be very suspicious. Another person called James Cronin just happened to be collecting a prescription for steroids the same day that a professional athlete with the same name was collecting something else, and then that same professional athlete thought nothing of what would be an insane dosage of two drugs for what he thought would be one antibiotic? I'm repeating myself here, but that's very weird.

I mean, there's several of us here now that know what Prednesol is and what a dosage for that would look like (5, then 3 then 1 over three days). A professional athlete would be more clueless about it than we are, is it?

I think the answer is yes, he's more clueless than we are. On the other hand, maybe I'm being naive.

Reading the report, I was struck once again by how much of a bubble these guys live in, how cosseted they are. Free medical care [rather than a €60+ bill for a GP], instant access to your regular doctor, prescription emailed to the pharmacy for you to pick up [so you don't waste time in your 5-hour working day], cost of the prescription probably picked up by the organisation etc.

It's not their fault and it probably makes sense for the organisation, but there's a part of me that thinks that it's no wonder that so many of them have a hard time adjusting to their next occupation after their last rugby contract. They're institutionalised/infantilised.

Being cosseted that much is not good for you , certainly not in the long term. It can't help you as a person to literally not know how to do the most basic of tasks

Frankly these players need a healthy dose of reality and if they don't get it during their playing days they certainly will once they retire


I don't know much about this case but as others point out it could have been far worse if he was allergic to the stuff he has been accidental given

I tend to give the authorities the benefit of the doubt if they think it was an innocent mistake I'll go along with them

[Morf]

Doping control as a whole is a mess.

No particular reflection on Cronin or Munster.

Rugby as a whole is fairly apathetic about doping in rugby. Don't genuinely care and don't want to know.

Will it lose money and fans? No. Then do bare minimum to achieve optics.

Rugby reacted to concussion because it was a clear and present danger to player numbers, litigation, sponsors and bottom line.

Ireland wants to tackle doping in rugby like Jamaica wants to tackle it in sprinting.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Hope you've recovered Hugo, sounds very nasty.

I don't like the argument that Cronin should have wondered why he suddenly had two things to take. I've a history of this kind of stuff and couldn't name all the things I've had and sometimes they come in different forms e.g. amoxicillin as a liquid or a tablet, ventolin as a liquid or in an inhaler, steroids as tablets or an inhaler. Maybe he doesn't have that kind of history but I just think it would be easy to see how he didn't cop it. Plus you can imagine he was more interested in wondering if he could play than the details of his treatment.

Combine that with the evidence and I'm not skeptical about what he was up to but I do think the fact that there's an app for players to check things on and he didn't bother is what makes him deserving of a ban. I don't really like the idea of strict liability but can see why it's there and not sure the mitigating factors are enough that a one month ban that doesn't even cover any matches is sufficient when he could have checked.

I'm also not entirely comfortable with a guy being allowed to play when he needed to take amoxicillin. I can imagine Paul Kimmage running with that argument and I wouldn't blame him.

[blockhead]

INDO article by Fanning. Tis about Munsters latest drug scandal. Can someone C&P it and post it here.

[CiaranIrl]

INDO article by Fanning. Tis about Munsters latest drug scandal. Can someone C&P it and post it here.

It's heartening that nobody here has an indo subscription, but I wish someone did so I could read a copy paste of the odd interesting article.

Hopefully he thinks it's weird that a guy with coincidentally the very same name, was coincidentally collecting a prescription for a steroid that is known for use in rugby (E.g. Dan Carter), coincidentally just before a HEC game, coincidentally from the same pharmacy on the same day, and never thought the dosage of immediately taking 9 pills of two different drugs unusual for his expected antibiotic. Oh, and this just happened to be the time a pharmacy mixed up the prescriptions, which is a vanishingly rare occurrence.

I feel like I must be taking the crazy pills, as I seem to be the only person who is suspicious.

[Morf]

I feel like I must be taking the crazy pills, as I seem to be the only person who is suspicious.

It's definitely weighted more in the direction of 'he was negligent as a pro sportsman' and 'rugby doesn't treat doping as its biggest issue' rather than a complicated conspiracy with a pharmacy risking getting sanctioned by their governing body to help exonerate him.

[CiaranIrl]

I feel like I must be taking the crazy pills, as I seem to be the only person who is suspicious.

It's definitely weighted more in the direction of 'he was negligent as a pro sportsman' and 'rugby doesn't treat doping as its biggest issue' rather than a complicated conspiracy with a pharmacy risking getting sanctioned by their governing body to help exonerate him.

Ok, another thing so. When he got the notification that his A sample came back positive, he was asked if he wanted to have his B sample tested. He apparently said no and pleaded guilty straight away. Isn't it odd that he did that considering he believed he had only taken antibiotics?

[neiliog93]

It's not odd at all if the mistake by the pharmacy had been discovered at that point - he'd have known he'd taken the corticosteroids for sure and there was no point in testing the B sample.

[offshorerules]

This is now the 4th time Munster have become embroiled in a drugs scandal. Good piece in the IT today.

[FLIP]

This is now the 4th time Munster have become embroiled in a drugs scandal. Good piece in the IT today.

With this and Grobbler, what were the other two?

[hugonaut]

This is now the 4th time Munster have become embroiled in a drugs scandal. Good piece in the IT today.

With this and Grobbler, what were the other two?

Frankie Sheahan and Tom Tierney.

[deco]

This is now the 4th time Munster have become embroiled in a drugs scandal. Good piece in the IT today.

Along with a picture of Cronin complete with hoodie, Waterson sums up as follows: "Munster .... are central to a history of rule breaking that has not been harshly punished. Cronin is a stunning example. Among Irish provinces, Munster are outliers."

Maybe Cronin was a bit thick or just incredibly unlucky and took the banned drug inadvertently before an important match.

Leaving maybe's aside, there is a definite history in the franchise of players being caught "innocently" taking PEDs.

[Up Wexford]

Hi all,

Long time listener, first time caller. I work as a pharmacist so I thought I might be able to pull back the curtain on what I think might be happening here.

The first thing to say is while dispensing errors are very rare, they do unfortunately happen and it is most likely that the incident happened as per Munster rugby and fact checked by ECPR. However, discussing with one or two colleagues and just the general feel of the story there's something that dosen't feel right.

For a start, the pharmacy admitting the dispensing error in such a blase manner. Dispensing errors are a big deal with potentially fatal consequences. The Pharmaceutical Society Of Ireland (PSI) are the regulatory body who deal with such cases and they are very much not the pharmacists friend. If there was a dispensing error as stated, putting a sportsmans career on the line, the pharmacist in question would be in a ton of sh!t. There would be a long drawn out, very stressful legal process, with hearings, statements, etc the results of which would not be divulged unless absolutely certain and the pharmacists license to practice would be on the line.

Then, the medication itself. Pharmacists and Drs and nurses can get a bit inured to the effects of medicines simply by being around them all the time (in a similar way an accountant on here might fascinate me with ways of making money they may see as fairly rudimentary) but taking prednisolone would not be a big deal (unless of course you are the patient who has to take it, apologies to the previous poster). It is very commonly prescribed as an anti inflammatory glucocorticoid that brings down inflammation and opens up the airways, making it easier to breathe when you have a chest infection. The antibiotic would be very commonly used with prednisolone for all manner of chest infections across many patient cohorts.

The reason prednisolone might be on the banned list would be its anti-inflammatory properties, its possible to take it to bring down inflammation to help play through injury a la Dan Carter and hydrocortisone. It wouldn't have any effect on aerobic capacity at all, despite its use above.

If he was legitimately prescribed antibiotics and prednisolone for a chest infection, and accidentally got pinged for prednisolone in the system, which is very plausible, there would be valid rx and a possible TUE and no need for the pharmacist to throw himself under the bus. If the pharmacist made an unfortunate dispensing error the parties in question would have reported it to the PSI and the issue dealt with through the proper channels. If the PSI are just hearing about this through a leak in the Indo, whoever it is is in for a world of hurt and one would be able to check the official PSI findings on the case in due course.

I am aware of the no speculation on peoples lives rule so please feel free to pull this as you see fit, but could Munster have found a pharmacist amenable to their cause, ask him to don the red jersey, take a bit of a hit but no real hassle other than idle speculation on niche forums and hope it all washes over in a week? Perhaps, but very unlikely.

I was very taken with the Watterson article in the IT today, like all doping cases, there is no smoke without fire!

[hugonaut]

Hi all,

Long time listener, first time caller. I work as a pharmacist so I thought I might be able to pull back the curtain on what I think might be happening here ...

Great post - really interesting and informative. Welcome to the board!

[Up Wexford]

Haha thanks man, I'm a big fan of your work!

Doping in sport is a bit of a pet topic of mine (one im very much against obviously ) itd be great to get other peoples opinions on doping in rugby, and even wider sports in general at another time!

[yellabelly1961]

Welcome fellow Yellowbelly! I assume...

[Up Wexford]

Thats the one! As a Ross man, the answer to the registration for the forum for the 2019 Towns Cup Winners particularly stung!

[blockhead]

From that times article.

The hooker claimed he had forgotten to properly inform authorities that he was using a Ventolin inhaler to combat his asthma.

Ah Asthma, good oul Asthma. The faithful friend of countless olympic champions, tour de france winners and on and on.

[Dave Cahill]

Conspiracy requires competence. I don't belief that, off the field at least, Munster Rugby have ever been burdened with competency. A litany of mistakes and oversights - often repeated - however, that plays into my perception of them.

[Up Wexford]

Proper point Dave. I think, mostly, doping is driven by the individual and not a club policy (except perhaps Juventus FC and SA Rugby). So to take Munster Rugby in context, they are definitely a clean club, but they do encourage a do whatever it takes spirit, among perhaps less talented players. Coupled with proximity to Irelands best and most successful sports science campus, UL, we have a plausaible(sp?) deniability for an increased incidence of drug use in Irish rugby. I am reluctant to shine the same light on my beloved Leinster, but I am inclined to think that drug use is very much player led, and the Leinster dressing room would have a zero tolerance policy. The Munster dressing room, well, see exhibits a) Grobeler b) Sheehan c) Erasmus d) Van Graan. I am not saying it is policy but I am saying a large proportion of the Munster set up have been exposed to drug use, and its attendant successes. I am also not saying if it is right or wrong! Doping is a fact of rugby, and I think it might be helpful if there was an eyes wide open view(?) of our sport. It is important in these discussions I think though to highlight player agency but perhaps not attribute righteous blame as such?