Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[hugonaut]

Munster count season ticket holders in their attendance figures even if they dont turn up. So in essence they've already bagged most of that money. They will lose out on pints and hangsangwich sales though.

Good point, I hadn't considered that.

[Dave Cahill]

Arno Botha has joined the Blue Bulls

[paddyor]

Munster count season ticket holders in their attendance figures even if they dont turn up. So in essence they've already bagged most of that money. They will lose out on pints and hangsangwich sales though.

You can't count revenue until you've met the contract obligations. Even if they hold the ST revenues until next season they won't count as sales.

[sunshiner1]

by Dave Cahill

Arno Botha has joined the Blue Bulls

This might mean (god forbid) that some of the Munster youngsters might actually get some gametime next season

[ronk]

by Dave Cahill

Arno Botha has joined the Blue Bulls

This might mean (god forbid) that some of the Munster youngsters might actually get some gametime next season

That Beirne fella will get more of a shot in the back row.

[hugonaut]

Cian Tracy suggesting that van Graan will be letting a high number of players go at the end of this season, much as he did at the end of last season [link: https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/ ... 1040607240 ].

Last season it was
- Stephen Fitzgerald,
- James Hart,
- Ian Keatley,
- Bill Johnston,
- Dave O'Callaghan,
- Ronan O'Mahony,
- Mike Sherry,
- Jaco Taute and
- Duncan Williams [9], a couple of whom were retirees.

This season, Tracy lists
- Arno Botha [9+7/794 mins in 2019-20 | 14+13/1313 mins in 2018-19],
- Sam Arnold [6+3/480 mins in 2019-20 | 8+8/702 mins in 2018-19],
- Darren O'Shea [5+3/328 mins in 2019-20 | 5+7/452 mins in 2018-19],
- Conor Oliver [0+2/37 mins in 2019-20 | 3+1/194 mins in 2018-19],
- Sean O'Connor [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+2/41 mins in 2018-19],
- Ciaran Parker [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+9/106 mins in 2018-19],
- Brian Scott [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+3/31 mins in 2018-19] and
- Jack Stafford [academy, 0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+0/0 mins in 2018-19].

There is a significant difference between the two years in that van Graan was initially clearing out players he had inherited, and now he is clearing out players he signed himself. He gave all of these lads contracts and, in quite a few instances, hardly played them.

Obviously Botha and Arnold are exceptions. Botha was a really reliable player for Munster and is making way because de Allende and Snyman are coming in. Arnold is a pro who has already moved provinces once and is mature beyond his years. He knows that selection has swung against him and from his statement turned down a contract offer with Munster to move to Connacht. Stafford doesn't count if he's not offered a deal.

Tracy wrote that Parker made nine appearances off the bench this season, but they were actually in the 2018-19 season; ditto Brian Scott. Injuries play a part , but with the two props, Oliver and O'Connor, you're looking at guys who were not even fringe players. Between four players they made a total of three starts [all of them Oliver's] in a season and a half of rugby. So why did van Graan contract them?

There was never a role for Sean O'Connor, which was blindingly obvious. He plays the same position [lock/blindside] as two players younger than him who were promoted ahead of him, Wycherly and Coombes. In O'Connor's last season in the Munster Academy [2018-19], he played 41 mins in the Pro14. The same season Coombes played 241 mins and Wycherly played 889 mins. The gametime was never there for O'Connor and it made no sense to give him a contract.

Munster's academy production is very ordinary, but you've got to take into account van Graan as a selector. He is not just the most conservative selector of any of the provincial coaches [which I figured out about a year and a half ago on DM: https://dementedmole.com/2018/12/29/mai ... ean-squad/], but he might also be just the flat-out worst. He decided to contract all these guys and then not play them. These are players who he was coaching day-to-day, who he re-signed, and then did not play. You're talking multiple, cash-costing errors in judgment. There is no good way to see this. Either he lacks a key competency in evaluating players, or Munster's contracting system is totally dysfunctional and saddles a coach with players he doesn't want.

If Dropkick has heard right then Wooton is moving on too, and he very much fits the mould [2+0/120 mins in 2019-20 | 6+1/458 mins in 2018-19]. Again, another player with whom JvG had direct and extensive experience, signed to a contract and then did not play. I'd imagine that these guys [O'Shea, Oliver, O'Connor, Parker, Scott, Wooton] are all on pretty basic contracts, but it's still probably €200-250k p.a. going out of the organisation in terms of wages for f*ck-all return.

[munster#1]

Interesting to hear that the incoming trio of Snyman, De Allande and Gallagher are likely to be available for the restart of this season should it occur.

That would be a massive boost for the remaining pro 14 games, and will hopefully allow them to push for the top spot in their conference.

[mildlyinterested]

Interesting to hear that the incoming trio of Snyman, De Allande and Gallagher are likely to be available for the restart of this season should it occur.

That would be a massive boost for the remaining pro 14 games, and will hopefully allow them to push for the top spot in their conference.

if they cant push on with them then really what are they doing.

[munster#1]

Interesting to hear that the incoming trio of Snyman, De Allande and Gallagher are likely to be available for the restart of this season should it occur.

That would be a massive boost for the remaining pro 14 games, and will hopefully allow them to push for the top spot in their conference.

if they cant push on with them then really what are they doing.

2 big signings do not guarantee success, but it should make Munster more competitive.
Saying that, regularly making the last 4 in Europe and the pro14 is not to be scoffed at.

[blockhead]

You can hear it from the old guys like Lenihan and Wood every time they're interviewed and the question of squad profile comes up. They are very uncomfortable with their Munster team becoming so diluted. They fear its only going to get worse and thats exactly what is happening.
Easily 9 of the starting team from Leinster,UK and RSA and a few on the bench too.
Rugby country my hole!

[munster#1]

You can hear it from the old guys like Lenihan and Wood every time they're interviewed and the question of squad profile comes up. They are very uncomfortable with their Munster team becoming so diluted. They fear its only going to get worse and thats exactly what is happening.
Easily 9 of the starting team from Leinster,UK and RSA and a few on the bench too.
Rugby country my hole!

Haven’t seen that myself, but it would be fair if they did come out and say that they were concerned.
Given that rugby is a squad game, we may well see teams fielded with the majority of the starting team being non native, but we will also see plenty of games where the majority are Munster products.

Looking at the squad right now, we will only have 2 players who do not qualify for Ireland, which when you compare to teams from the past for each club, then Munster are doing a good job of building a competitive squad, while fulfilling the principle goal, which is to provide players to the national team.

Leinster could well field a team with Cronin, bent, Fardy, jgp, henshaw, Rudduck and Lowe next season, and they may have on a number of occasions already.
Is that an acceptable %?
With a number of players leaving they are likely to make a couple of signings for next season, would you see that as unacceptable? Would you be outraged?

What is the acceptable percentage in your mind?

[nc6000]

Munster’s Tyler Bleyendaal forced to retire on medical grounds -

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4258213

[munster#1]

Munster’s Tyler Bleyendaal forced to retire on medical grounds -

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4258213

Devastating news, the poor lad has had a very tough time throughout his career.
A career with so much promise.

[Keith]

You can hear it from the old guys like Lenihan and Wood every time they're interviewed and the question of squad profile comes up. They are very uncomfortable with their Munster team becoming so diluted. They fear its only going to get worse and thats exactly what is happening.
Easily 9 of the starting team from Leinster,UK and RSA and a few on the bench too.
Rugby country my hole!

Haven’t seen that myself, but it would be fair if they did come out and say that they were concerned.
Given that rugby is a squad game, we may well see teams fielded with the majority of the starting team being non native, but we will also see plenty of games where the majority are Munster products.

Looking at the squad right now, we will only have 2 players who do not qualify for Ireland, which when you compare to teams from the past for each club, then Munster are doing a good job of building a competitive squad, while fulfilling the principle goal, which is to provide players to the national team.

Leinster could well field a team with Cronin, bent, Fardy, jgp, henshaw, Rudduck and Lowe next season, and they may have on a number of occasions already.
Is that an acceptable %?
With a number of players leaving they are likely to make a couple of signings for next season, would you see that as unacceptable? Would you be outraged?

What is the acceptable percentage in your mind?

Ruddock is about as Leinster as it gets, absoulety comical to include him here. There's no fear of Munster losing their identity any time soon but it's so funny seeing Munster fans claim Leinster have a similar issue by naming the few players Leinster have that aren't from here. Leinster have absoultley nothing to prove when it comes to fielding home grown players, if anything it would be nice to have a couple more from the outside!

[Keith]

Munster’s Tyler Bleyendaal forced to retire on medical grounds -

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4258213

They have a great prospect in Crowley, but let's face it they will still try sign one of the Byrne's or Frawley instead of trusting him.

[munster#1]

You can hear it from the old guys like Lenihan and Wood every time they're interviewed and the question of squad profile comes up. They are very uncomfortable with their Munster team becoming so diluted. They fear its only going to get worse and thats exactly what is happening.
Easily 9 of the starting team from Leinster,UK and RSA and a few on the bench too.
Rugby country my hole!

Haven’t seen that myself, but it would be fair if they did come out and say that they were concerned.
Given that rugby is a squad game, we may well see teams fielded with the majority of the starting team being non native, but we will also see plenty of games where the majority are Munster products.

Looking at the squad right now, we will only have 2 players who do not qualify for Ireland, which when you compare to teams from the past for each club, then Munster are doing a good job of building a competitive squad, while fulfilling the principle goal, which is to provide players to the national team.

Leinster could well field a team with Cronin, bent, Fardy, jgp, henshaw, Rudduck and Lowe next season, and they may have on a number of occasions already.
Is that an acceptable %?
With a number of players leaving they are likely to make a couple of signings for next season, would you see that as unacceptable? Would you be outraged?

What is the acceptable percentage in your mind?

Ruddock is about as Leinster as it gets, absoulety comical to include him here. There's no fear of Munster losing their identity any time soon but it's so funny seeing Munster fans claim Leinster have a similar issue by naming the few players Leinster have that aren't from here. Leinster have absoultley nothing to prove when it comes to fielding home grown players, if anything it would be nice to have a couple more from the outside!

I always see ruddock as contentious as he was brought up in Wales, and came through the Ospreys system, but not something that would bother me one way or another.

I did not say that Leinster have a problem, I was just trying to get that posters opinion on what percentage is acceptable.
No club can sustain a fully home grown squad and still expect silverware, and Leinster have always had an influx of outside help.

I would just like to see what the the acceptable number might be.

Munster like Ulster and Connacht are underachieving in terms of developing local talent, but all 3 are doing a relatively good job of supplying Irish qualified players to the national team, so either way they are full filling they’re sole purpose, but it’s always interesting to hear other people’s opinions.

[Keith]

It's about keeping the identiy of the provinces for me and not seeing us become like the SH franchises where players are thrown around just because there is a gap to fill. If a player wants to leave; like Conway for example, nobody with any sense would have a problem with that.
It's when the IRFU pushes the move is what really annoys most of us.

[munster#1]

It's about keeping the identiy of the provinces for me and not seeing us become like the SH franchises where players are thrown around just because there is a gap to fill. If a player wants to leave; like Conway for example, nobody with any sense would have a problem with that.
It's when the IRFU pushes the move is what really annoys most of us.

The inconvenient truth is that we are just like any franchise.
The irfu are the paymaster and without them the provinces would not be in the position that they are currently in.

It’s just that the IRFU are late to the game when it comes to making the most of resources.
I am not saying that I agree that what they are doing is right, but it is the right thing to do for the national team.

Sport like most walks of life are cyclical, and it is likely that Ireland’s fortunes will change, as will Leinster’s, so it is all about making hay while the sun shines.

[Keith]

It's about keeping the identiy of the provinces for me and not seeing us become like the SH franchises where players are thrown around just because there is a gap to fill. If a player wants to leave; like Conway for example, nobody with any sense would have a problem with that.
It's when the IRFU pushes the move is what really annoys most of us.

The inconvenient truth is that we are just like any franchise.
The irfu are the paymaster and without them the provinces would not be in the position that they are currently in.

It’s just that the IRFU are late to the game when it comes to making the most of resources.
I am not saying that I agree that what they are doing is right, but it is the right thing to do for the national team.

Sport like most walks of life are cyclical, and it is likely that Ireland’s fortunes will change, as will Leinster’s, so it is all about making hay while the sun shines.

The IRFU have the opportunity to see the failures of the SH franchises and not follow the same path. To be fair The IRFU have allowed most of our players to stay with us so far, hopefully that doesn't change anytime soon as we know players can still make it to the top here without being guaranteed their starting place in the big games.

[hugonaut]

Munster’s Tyler Bleyendaal forced to retire on medical grounds -
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4258213

Bleyendaal is a nice fella and has had a terrible time with serious injuries. While it must be difficult to accept for the player, it seems quite obvious that this is the right move for him. You just can't afford to take a risk with a neck injury. Hopefully it is not something which affects him in his day-to-day life.