Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[OTT]

As good as a player Blyendaal could have been injuries probably denied us of ever really seeing that and that is even before he rocked up at Munster. I always felt it strange that he was given the renewal last year. Munster had (or should have) already moved on from him it was the 16/17 season he did his best work and since that he has mostly been struck down with injuries and they brought JJ back and sold Joey a doozy then you had the Bill Johnston lad hanging around something known as an academy(youth club?).

In February 2019 when he got his new contract never mind the fact they could not depend on his body they literally had no need for him, they had the three others mentioned in situ and two more promising 10's around the Irish U20's Flannery and Healy. It was obviously the catalyst for Johnston leaving for Ulster.

It is sad that Blyendaal has to finish up but if Munster don't sh!t the bed and covet something else one of their neighbours possess that they don't need (or really want) they have a really exciting group of 10's and with their age profile huge potential to get better. Add in Crowley to the mix who might end up the best of the lot.

Give them a chance and play them Johaan, do the right thing. Do it for your reputation, do it for Irish rugby, do it for Munster rugby, do it for Munster fans like Munster#1 who want to see some actual Munster players in their team it is hard watching him trying to troll without any trolling material and most importantly DO IT FOR LEINSTER RUGBY PLEASSSEEEE!!!

[Morf]

Not sure it's been mentioned but Ciaran Parker was an exile brought in on a dev contract and released with the playing minutes Hugo noted above.

Not even a local product losing out to Salanoa/Knox.

[mildlyinterested]

It's about keeping the identiy of the provinces for me and not seeing us become like the SH franchises where players are thrown around just because there is a gap to fill. If a player wants to leave; like Conway for example, nobody with any sense would have a problem with that.
It's when the IRFU pushes the move is what really annoys most of us.

The inconvenient truth is that we are just like any franchise.
The irfu are the paymaster and without them the provinces would not be in the position that they are currently in.

It’s just that the IRFU are late to the game when it comes to making the most of resources.
I am not saying that I agree that what they are doing is right, but it is the right thing to do for the national team.

Sport like most walks of life are cyclical, and it is likely that Ireland’s fortunes will change, as will Leinster’s, so it is all about making hay while the sun shines.

Yep munster really are a soul-less enterprise these days.

[deco]

It's about keeping the identiy of the provinces for me and not seeing us become like the SH franchises where players are thrown around just because there is a gap to fill. If a player wants to leave; like Conway for example, nobody with any sense would have a problem with that.
It's when the IRFU pushes the move is what really annoys most of us.

The inconvenient truth is that we are just like any franchise.
The irfu are the paymaster and without them the provinces would not be in the position that they are currently in.

It’s just that the IRFU are late to the game when it comes to making the most of resources.
I am not saying that I agree that what they are doing is right, but it is the right thing to do for the national team.

Sport like most walks of life are cyclical, and it is likely that Ireland’s fortunes will change, as will Leinster’s, so it is all about making hay while the sun shines.

Or taking hay while the sun shines, in "Munster's" case

[dropkick]

Cian Tracy suggesting that van Graan will be letting a high number of players go at the end of this season, much as he did at the end of last season [link: https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/ ... 1040607240 ].

Last season it was
- Stephen Fitzgerald,
- James Hart,
- Ian Keatley,
- Bill Johnston,
- Dave O'Callaghan,
- Ronan O'Mahony,
- Mike Sherry,
- Jaco Taute and
- Duncan Williams [9], a couple of whom were retirees.

This season, Tracy lists
- Arno Botha [9+7/794 mins in 2019-20 | 14+13/1313 mins in 2018-19],
- Sam Arnold [6+3/480 mins in 2019-20 | 8+8/702 mins in 2018-19],
- Darren O'Shea [5+3/328 mins in 2019-20 | 5+7/452 mins in 2018-19],
- Conor Oliver [0+2/37 mins in 2019-20 | 3+1/194 mins in 2018-19],
- Sean O'Connor [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+2/41 mins in 2018-19],
- Ciaran Parker [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+9/106 mins in 2018-19],
- Brian Scott [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+3/31 mins in 2018-19] and
- Jack Stafford [academy, 0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+0/0 mins in 2018-19].

There is a significant difference between the two years in that van Graan was initially clearing out players he had inherited, and now he is clearing out players he signed himself. He gave all of these lads contracts and, in quite a few instances, hardly played them.

Obviously Botha and Arnold are exceptions. Botha was a really reliable player for Munster and is making way because de Allende and Snyman are coming in. Arnold is a pro who has already moved provinces once and is mature beyond his years. He knows that selection has swung against him and from his statement turned down a contract offer with Munster to move to Connacht. Stafford doesn't count if he's not offered a deal.

Tracy wrote that Parker made nine appearances off the bench this season, but they were actually in the 2018-19 season; ditto Brian Scott. Injuries play a part , but with the two props, Oliver and O'Connor, you're looking at guys who were not even fringe players. Between four players they made a total of three starts [all of them Oliver's] in a season and a half of rugby. So why did van Graan contract them?

There was never a role for Sean O'Connor, which was blindingly obvious. He plays the same position [lock/blindside] as two players younger than him who were promoted ahead of him, Wycherly and Coombes. In O'Connor's last season in the Munster Academy [2018-19], he played 41 mins in the Pro14. The same season Coombes played 241 mins and Wycherly played 889 mins. The gametime was never there for O'Connor and it made no sense to give him a contract.

Munster's academy production is very ordinary, but you've got to take into account van Graan as a selector. He is not just the most conservative selector of any of the provincial coaches [which I figured out about a year and a half ago on DM: https://dementedmole.com/2018/12/29/mai ... ean-squad/], but he might also be just the flat-out worst. He decided to contract all these guys and then not play them. These are players who he was coaching day-to-day, who he re-signed, and then did not play. You're talking multiple, cash-costing errors in judgment. There is no good way to see this. Either he lacks a key competency in evaluating players, or Munster's contracting system is totally dysfunctional and saddles a coach with players he doesn't want.

If Dropkick has heard right then Wooton is moving on too, and he very much fits the mould [2+0/120 mins in 2019-20 | 6+1/458 mins in 2018-19]. Again, another player with whom JvG had direct and extensive experience, signed to a contract and then did not play. I'd imagine that these guys [O'Shea, Oliver, O'Connor, Parker, Scott, Wooton] are all on pretty basic contracts, but it's still probably €200-250k p.a. going out of the organisation in terms of wages for f*ck-all return.

I agree about JVG. My hunch is he relies on reputation too much to cover for his own shortcomings on evaluating players.


Wootton was reported in the limerick leader. He's an interesting case because he got a few games at the start of last season (2018/19) played well and got a new contract well before christmas. Since he signed the contract he has hardly featured at all.


Parker only ever came on for the last few minutes of a game. 107 minutes from 9 games says it all. Even easy matches he was never given a decent run.
Oliver has not really featured despite showing potential under Rassie. He's similar to Cloete. Cloete is signed until 2022. Dont know why he got a long contract.

[blockhead]

Sad but not un-expected news about Tyler Blyendaal. Wasn't he a baby black captain? A very talented 10 who could have been a giant of European rugby if the stars had aligned differently. Injured for nearly his entire time down in Munster, must have been very frustrating. Had a brief spell in the limelight around 3 years ago when his skills were there for all to see.
Heard he is a very promising young coach. Best of luck to him.

[Sugary tae]

Hi diddly ho neighbourios

Lurk regularly must start posting more. Very interesting post by hugonaut. If the expected exodus is Scott Parker Oliver Arnold bleyendaal O’Shea Whooton and O’Connor then none will come as a surprise. I don’t necessarily mind if they haven’t gotten minutes. I pretty much all cases they’ve already been usurped by younger and potentially much better players. Just because you have a contract if coach thinks you’re not cutting the mustard in training I see no point in promoting to gametime unless it’s earned. Knox /hodnett/goggin/Healy/Wycherley/Nash and Coombes have all bounded into the equation In the last 2 years. They have all overtaken these players leaving. However if within the next 2 years they’re not commanding regular starting positions at least in pro14 then we shouldn’t keep them. The fear of culling from the mix should keep them honest. Munster are often under massive pressure to keep homegrown talents to have a munstercentric squad. This is prevalent too in Ulster. Leinsters large conveyor belt reduces this pressure. Frankly if guys aren’t up to it they’re only in the way of the next young lad. I accept you need a reasonable amount of seasoned lads and a core of them makes the difference when the stars are away but you can’t just keep because they are local. They have to be to the standard required

[Peg Leg]

It's about keeping the identiy of the provinces for me and not seeing us become like the SH franchises where players are thrown around just because there is a gap to fill. If a player wants to leave; like Conway for example, nobody with any sense would have a problem with that.
It's when the IRFU pushes the move is what really annoys most of us.

The inconvenient truth is that we are just like any franchise.
The irfu are the paymaster and without them the provinces would not be in the position that they are currently in.

It’s just that the IRFU are late to the game when it comes to making the most of resources.
I am not saying that I agree that what they are doing is right, but it is the right thing to do for the national team.

Sport like most walks of life are cyclical, and it is likely that Ireland’s fortunes will change, as will Leinster’s, so it is all about making hay while the sun shines.

Or taking hay while the sun shines, in "Munster's" case

[munster#1]

It's about keeping the identiy of the provinces for me and not seeing us become like the SH franchises where players are thrown around just because there is a gap to fill. If a player wants to leave; like Conway for example, nobody with any sense would have a problem with that.
It's when the IRFU pushes the move is what really annoys most of us.

The inconvenient truth is that we are just like any franchise.
The irfu are the paymaster and without them the provinces would not be in the position that they are currently in.

It’s just that the IRFU are late to the game when it comes to making the most of resources.
I am not saying that I agree that what they are doing is right, but it is the right thing to do for the national team.

Sport like most walks of life are cyclical, and it is likely that Ireland’s fortunes will change, as will Leinster’s, so it is all about making hay while the sun shines.

Or taking hay while the sun shines, in "Munster's" case

As I said before, sport is cyclical.
Leinster will have their time when they need assistance from the other provinces.

Hopefully Munster are in a position to return the favour when the time comes.

[neiliog93]

As regards what percentage is 'acceptable', I would say whatever is low enough for the identity of the province to be sustained. I would say three or four foreign players and a few others from other parts of Ireland/the granny rule is fine, but when you start moving towards half a matchday squad, or say one-third or more of the extended squad, I think you're in trouble.

[munster#1]

As regards what percentage is 'acceptable', I would say whatever is low enough for the identity of the province to be sustained. I would say three or four foreign players and a few others from other parts of Ireland/the granny rule is fine, but when you start moving towards half a matchday squad, or say one-third or more of the extended squad, I think you're in trouble.

Hard not to agree with those numbers, and looking at the 4 provinces, 3 of the 4 are currently in bad shape.
Obviously this is not something that will ever be addressed, as unfortunately this is all part of professionalism.
It would be very xenophobic to not support a team because of this, but it is something that would annoy many supporters.

Interesting looking through Leinster squads, and the squad announced at the start of the 2008/2009 season for Leinster had over 1/3 from outside the province.
So shows how a squads fortunes can be turned around given time.

Would you view that season as a failure or the catalyst to what we see today?

[Avenger]

Interesting looking through Leinster squads, and the squad announced at the start of the 2008/2009 season for Leinster had over 1/3 from outside the province.
So shows how a squads fortunes can be turned around given time.

They hadn't got their act together in organising the supply at that point. They were only in the formative stages.
Since then no one can argue with the production. If that level of production drys up there may be some weight to your point but until that time there is not - so we'll just have to wait and see I guess.
Leinster have shown that it can be done but Munster in particular don't want to put in the ground work to get there because as others have pointed out it will take time to bear fruit consistently.

One of the biggest attractions of Leinster for me is how they produce local players and turn them in to top quality players. It just wouldn't be the same for me if it was 4 or 5 lads plus some from Munster/Ulster/Connacht plus a few imports. If we won a European cup under those circumstances I'm sure I'd be happy but it just wouldn't be the same (and I realise its easy to say that when we've won 4 and are currently strong).
But each to their own. Folk don't like to attack their own team and that's fair enough but I know one or two Munster lads that are not comfortable with the way it has gone since that great team of the 2000s came to an end.

[munster#1]

Interesting looking through Leinster squads, and the squad announced at the start of the 2008/2009 season for Leinster had over 1/3 from outside the province.
So shows how a squads fortunes can be turned around given time.

They hadn't got their act together in organising the supply at that point. They were only in the formative stages.
Since then no one can argue with the production. If that level of production drys up there may be some weight to your point but until that time there is not - so we'll just have to wait and see I guess.
Leinster have shown that it can be done but Munster in particular don't want to put in the ground work to get there because as others have pointed out it will take time to bear fruit consistently.

One of the biggest attractions of Leinster for me is how they produce local players and turn them in to top quality players. It just wouldn't be the same for me if it was 4 or 5 lads plus some from Munster/Ulster/Connacht plus a few imports. If we won a European cup under those circumstances I'm sure I'd be happy but it just wouldn't be the same (and I realise its easy to say that when we've won 4 and are currently strong).
But each to their own. Folk don't like to attack their own team and that's fair enough but I know one or two Munster lads that are not comfortable with the way it has gone since that great team of the 2000s came to an end.

When you say Munster in particular, who are you comparing them against?
Munster are in the process of overhauling their academy starting with the recent cull that took place.
But these things take time as shown in Leinster.

At the end of the day this is a professional sport, something designed to give joy to people, it is not life or death for the supporters, so I do not let it get to me too much if the team that I support have only 9-10 local lads starting.
That view is a bit parochial and small minded. Those things are for the bean counters, Munster management and the IRFU to worry about.

I am a passionate Munster supporter and a realist.
I’m sure not too many Leinster fans would discredit the 2008/2009 season based on your logic.

[Avenger]

Where did I discredit it?

[timothydec77]

Players transfers do water down the teams identity.

Part of the reason people supported the provinces is because the players mostly came from the communities.

I don't think many people from Cork would spend 2 or more hours each way to support a Munster team made up of 10 Leinster academy players.

[munster#1]

Where did I discredit it?

“just wouldn't be the same for me if it was 4 or 5 lads plus some from Munster/Ulster/Connacht plus a few imports. If we won a European cup under those circumstances I'm sure I'd be happy but it just wouldn't be the same”

[Avenger]

Where did I discredit it?

“just wouldn't be the same for me if it was 4 or 5 lads plus some from Munster/Ulster/Connacht plus a few imports. If we won a European cup under those circumstances I'm sure I'd be happy but it just wouldn't be the same”

It wouldn't be the same for me. That in no way discredits the achievement IMO but I guess that's the difference between me and you.
Other fans wouldn't care less if there was 23 lads from mars playing.

[Avenger]

BTW there was 11 Leinster born and developed lads starting in the 2009 Heineken cup final with 6 more on the bench - so 17 in the 22. I don't think that's as poor a Leinster representation as you are making it out to be.

Edit - correcting bench numbers

[munster#1]

Where did I discredit it?

“just wouldn't be the same for me if it was 4 or 5 lads plus some from Munster/Ulster/Connacht plus a few imports. If we won a European cup under those circumstances I'm sure I'd be happy but it just wouldn't be the same”

It wouldn't be the same for me. That in no way discredits the achievement IMO but I guess that's the difference between me and you.
Other fans wouldn't care less if there was 23 lads from mars playing.

Not a great stretch between saying that the achievement isn’t the same and discrediting it, but I’ll agree to disagree as it is just semantics.

True, some fans follow a team for no reason at all and others try apply logic as to why the follow a team.
As long as there are bums on seats and people buy merchandise why should it bother anyone.

We both follow manufactured franchises, so no point getting too worked up over these things.
Just sit back and enjoy it.

I would prefer it if all players were from my home town, but not too upset where players come from.
If they are willing to pull on a jersey and play they’re best, then I don’t tend to judge them.

Again, when you say Munster in particular don’t want to put in the ground work, apart from Leinster, who else are you comparing them to? And what facts are you basing this on?

[munster#1]

BTW there was 11 Leinster born and developed lads starting in the 2009 Heineken cup final with 6 more on the bench - so 17 in the 22. I don't think that's as poor a Leinster representation as you are making it out to be.

Edit - correcting bench numbers

A cup is not just won in the final game of the season, have a look at the squad from that season.
I was fairly surprised myself.

Edit: I am not trying to discredit their achievements, just pointing out that at some stage all teams need a leg up.