Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[neiliog93]

It can't be based purely on place of birth - you could be born abroad to parents from your province and then raised from a very young age back in that province. Your place of birth is irrelevant there.

Chris Keane was born in Louth, raised in Dublin and and went to school in Belvedere, I would count that as Leinster-origin.

[munster#1]

It can't be based purely on place of birth - you could be born abroad to parents from your province and then raised from a very young age back in that province. Your place of birth is irrelevant there.

Chris Keane was born in Louth, raised in Dublin and and went to school in Belvedere, I would count that as Leinster-origin.

So a player does not have to be developed by his home province so long as he considers himself from said province?

You have some interesting views on this subject.

I know a fair few lads from Leinster, from the likes of Kilkenny and Longford who are man Munster fans.
If any of their children went on to play for Munster, would it be acceptable for Munster to consider them as a local lad based on the fact that they grew up as Munster fans?

[Oldschoolsocks]

It can't be based purely on place of birth - you could be born abroad to parents from your province and then raised from a very young age back in that province. Your place of birth is irrelevant there.

Chris Keane was born in Louth, raised in Dublin and and went to school in Belvedere, I would count that as Leinster-origin.

So a player does not have to be developed by his home province so long as he considers himself from said province?

You have some interesting views on this subject.

I know a fair few lads from Leinster, from the likes of Kilkenny and Longford who are man Munster fans.
If any of their children went on to play for Munster, would it be acceptable for Munster to consider them as a local lad based on the fact that they grew up as Munster fans?

nope

[munster#1]

It can't be based purely on place of birth - you could be born abroad to parents from your province and then raised from a very young age back in that province. Your place of birth is irrelevant there.

Chris Keane was born in Louth, raised in Dublin and and went to school in Belvedere, I would count that as Leinster-origin.

So a player does not have to be developed by his home province so long as he considers himself from said province?

You have some interesting views on this subject.

I know a fair few lads from Leinster, from the likes of Kilkenny and Longford who are man Munster fans.
If any of their children went on to play for Munster, would it be acceptable for Munster to consider them as a local lad based on the fact that they grew up as Munster fans?

nope

2 questions one answer. I take it is a no to both?

[neiliog93]

It's not that complicated, there are different ways to have a connection to a place - parental lineage, place of birth, and where you're raised all count.

There's a lot o silly, disingenuous arguments on this theme - I couldn't stand it when a lot of people made the ridiculous, disingenuous argument that Jamie Heaslip being born in Israel and playing for Ireland was somehow comparable to Stander or Aki being born abroad and then qualifying to play for Ireland on residency grounds. Heaslip's parents were Irish, he was raised in Ireland, etc. Same for O'Gara and being born in San Diego.

[munster#1]

It's not that complicated, there are different ways to have a connection to a place - parental lineage, place of birth, and where you're raised all count.

There's a lot o silly, disingenuous arguments on this theme - I couldn't stand it when a lot of people made the ridiculous, disingenuous argument that Jamie Heaslip being born in Israel and playing for Ireland was somehow comparable to Stander or Aki being born abroad and then qualifying to play for Ireland on residency grounds. Heaslip's parents were Irish, he was raised in Ireland, etc. Same for O'Gara and being born in San Diego.

I don’t think it is that complicated at all, I am just curious to your opinion.
So in your opinion they are the 3 deciding factors?

Based on family lineage one could also argue that Matt Gallagher is coming home, having spent many a summer in limerick with his grandmother.

This whole situation is a bit xenophobic for me, but it does seem to be something that a number of people have misplaced passion about.

[neiliog93]

Gallagher certainly has ties to Munster but did not grow up there, or go through the system. He's clearly closer than an NIQ player in identity terms but not the same as a kid who grew up in Limerick and went through the academy either.

I agree that this type of discussion can (sometimes even unintentionally) cross the line into racist territory. It's somewhere to tread carefully for sure.

[Oldschoolsocks]

It can't be based purely on place of birth - you could be born abroad to parents from your province and then raised from a very young age back in that province. Your place of birth is irrelevant there.

Chris Keane was born in Louth, raised in Dublin and and went to school in Belvedere, I would count that as Leinster-origin.

So a player does not have to be developed by his home province so long as he considers himself from said province?

You have some interesting views on this subject.

I know a fair few lads from Leinster, from the likes of Kilkenny and Longford who are man Munster fans.
If any of their children went on to play for Munster, would it be acceptable for Munster to consider them as a local lad based on the fact that they grew up as Munster fans?

nope

Nope, you don’t know a fair few children from Longford and Kilkenny being raised as Munster fans

[Avenger]

Being from Kilkenny I have to say that there are far less Munster jerseys around than 15 years ago.
In fact the only two lads I’d meet in pubs watching games that are Munster fans are from Munster. Now I know there are lads from a good few Leinster counties that supported Munster in their hay day and are still fans. But not as many as their used to be (by a long shot). I watched the last Munster - Leinster game in a pub in Carlow and there was more Munster fans there than you’d ever see in pubs in Kilkenny.

Also I work with a lad from Limerick who lives here now and his kid supports Leinster.
So it’s not really a given that kids support whoever their folks support. I reckon a bigger factor is who their mates in school support.

[munster#1]

Being from Kilkenny I have to say that there are far less Munster jerseys around than 15 years ago.
In fact the only two lads I’d meet in pubs watching games that are Munster fans are from Munster. Now I know there are lads from a good few Leinster counties that supported Munster in their hay day and are still fans. But not as many as their used to be (by a long shot). I watched the last Munster - Leinster game in a pub in Carlow and there was more Munster fans there than you’d ever see in pubs in Kilkenny.

Also I work with a lad from Limerick who lives here now and his kid supports Leinster.
So it’s not really a given that kids support whoever their folks support. I reckon a bigger factor is who their mates in school support.

I was in no way stating that the majority of people in these counties are Munster fans.
Just giving an example where I believe that using simple metrics to deem if a player is a Leinster, Munster etc. player may not be correct.

I do not know any Leinster fans with no ties to Leinster (not claiming that they are not there), but I do know a few rugby mad limerick men who would never follow Munster as they are devout club men.

[heno]

For me it's not about how blue your blood is, your parents accent, what posters were on your wall when you were growing up, or whether you have red hair or freckles. It's about what system produced you. If you went to a leinster school and the leinster academy, you were produced by leinster. If most of our squad were produced by leinster that's a good sign that all is well with that side of the game. If Artemyev had gone on to play for leinster seniors, I would consider him a leinster player despite being russian from Russian parents and being raised in Russia.

If you went to a leinster school but the munster academy you are a bit mixed. But I would lean to you being a munster player. But for now that's a bit unusual.

If you were born to leinster parents in leinster etc but went to school in England and came through and English academy and then played for leinster. It might be more agreeable as you haven't been 'tarnished' by another province but according to the objective definition above, you are not a leinster produced player.

Obviously players like nacewa or conway who play for a different province for a few years and seem to have bought in to the whole thing is a lot more agreeable that a foreign world Cup winner coming in for a season and taking a pay cheque. But in the age of professionalism I would expect any player to be able to make appropriate utterances no matter where they end up.

So back to munster, there is an element of boo munster about this. But not achieving the objective above is hurting munster. Bringing in foreign players is hurting the national team. And taking players from another province (if they had a future in that province) hurts that province too. So there is a genuine criticism here. I just think it's better to be objective about it.

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[dropkick]

The above is based on just the HCup squad - below is the % of Leinster players in the full squad in that and all the following seasons

08/09 = 66%
09/10 = 63%
10/11 = 72%
11/12 = 65%
12/13 = 63%
13/14 = 64%
14/15 = 69%
15/16 = 72%
16/17 = 73%
17/18 = 76%
18/19 = 79%
19/20 = 83%

Interesting to see the trend as percentages.


It's been all upwards since 12/13 but no doubt the academy and underage structure was put in place years before that and 12/13 is just when it started bearing fruit.


It took Munster a lot longer to take their academy really seriously. I don't know if the stadium debt was the cause of that or part of the problem. The main problem imo is those running Munster were not proactive enough. The golden generation didn't vanish overnight but even though the squad was weakening all the time they were still getting to European semi finals which papered over the cracks.


Despite the flak Munster get for the number of non Munster players, they have been taking the academy more seriously in the last 5 or 6 years. I can't put a number on it but that's the gist of things I have. The Munster academy is now starting to bear fruit. There's a lot of talent coming through but it has yet to translate into the overall percentage of players from Munster. So I think Munster are now where Leinster were in 12/13 and I would expect the percentage to trend upwards.


There's a lot more to do. The Limerick problem has to be fixed. There's a serious breakdown of the system somewhere if the Limerick supply of players have dried up.


I don't buy the 'less schools' argument Munster supporters use. That's true in theory but if the academy wasn't fully utilised for a long time then it is a weak argument. Also Leinster supporters criticising Munsters signings now where quiet when they were in a similar position. That applies to most of the critics. It's not like Leinster wouldn't do the same as Munster if they didn't have a conveyor belt of talent coming through.


The criticism is good for Munster though. Just like Munsters success in the 00s was good for Leinster, Leinster's success now especially in their underage development, is good for Munster. Nothing like being compared to a similar team to know where you stand. Probably why Irish and Welsh fans always, instinctively compared their teams to each other.

[munster#1]

For me it's not about how blue your blood is, your parents accent, what posters were on your wall when you were growing up, or whether you have red hair or freckles. It's about what system produced you. If you went to a leinster school and the leinster academy, you were produced by leinster. If most of our squad were produced by leinster that's a good sign that all is well with that side of the game. If Artemyev had gone on to play for leinster seniors, I would consider him a leinster player despite being russian from Russian parents and being raised in Russia.

If you went to a leinster school but the munster academy you are a bit mixed. But I would lean to you being a munster player. But for now that's a bit unusual.

If you were born to leinster parents in leinster etc but went to school in England and came through and English academy and then played for leinster. It might be more agreeable as you haven't been 'tarnished' by another province but according to the objective definition above, you are not a leinster produced player.

Obviously players like nacewa or conway who play for a different province for a few years and seem to have bought in to the whole thing is a lot more agreeable that a foreign world Cup winner coming in for a season and taking a pay cheque. But in the age of professionalism I would expect any player to be able to make appropriate utterances no matter where they end up.

So back to munster, there is an element of boo munster about this. But not achieving the objective above is hurting munster. Bringing in foreign players is hurting the national team. And taking players from another province (if they had a future in that province) hurts that province too. So there is a genuine criticism here. I just think it's better to be objective about it.

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I am in agreement with much of that. I think it is far too simplistic to limit if a player belongs or not based on place of birth or place where they grew up.
A good example of this would be the ruddock brothers. Both came through the Ospreys youth system before switching to Leinster.
Based on the prescribed metrics, one would be a Leinster player while the other would always be seen as a blow in.

In an age of professionalism the net needs to be spread a bit wider.
IMO if a player comes through a teams academy he should be seen as a product of that team, regardless of where he was born or grew up.
This is not the common opinion, as the likes of Knox will never be seen as a Munster player, and on the flip side, to many, Dillane will always been seen as a Munster player.

With regards to Munster hurting the national team with bringing in foreigners, I do not buy that, as next season they will only have 2 NIQ players. This may increase, but for now that is all that they will have.
Of the foreigners that that have brought in, CJ and Klyne went to the World Cup, and buy for injuries Tyler may have been there also.
It may well be hurting the Munster brand for many supporters, but it has had very little effect, if any on the national team.

[munster#1]

The above is based on just the HCup squad - below is the % of Leinster players in the full squad in that and all the following seasons

08/09 = 66%
09/10 = 63%
10/11 = 72%
11/12 = 65%
12/13 = 63%
13/14 = 64%
14/15 = 69%
15/16 = 72%
16/17 = 73%
17/18 = 76%
18/19 = 79%
19/20 = 83%

Interesting to see the trend as percentages.


It's been all upwards since 12/13 but no doubt the academy and underage structure was put in place years before that and 12/13 is just when it started bearing fruit.


It took Munster a lot longer to take their academy really seriously. I don't know if the stadium debt was the cause of that or part of the problem. The main problem imo is those running Munster were not proactive enough. The golden generation didn't vanish overnight but even though the squad was weakening all the time they were still getting to European semi finals which papered over the cracks.


Despite the flak Munster get for the number of non Munster players, they have been taking the academy more seriously in the last 5 or 6 years. I can't put a number on it but that's the gist of things I have. The Munster academy is now starting to bear fruit. There's a lot of talent coming through but it has yet to translate into the overall percentage of players from Munster. So I think Munster are now where Leinster were in 12/13 and I would expect the percentage to trend upwards.


There's a lot more to do. The Limerick problem has to be fixed. There's a serious breakdown of the system somewhere if the Limerick supply of players have dried up.


I don't buy the 'less schools' argument Munster supporters use. That's true in theory but if the academy wasn't fully utilised for a long time then it is a weak argument. Also Leinster supporters criticising Munsters signings now where quiet when they were in a similar position. That applies to most of the critics. It's not like Leinster wouldn't do the same as Munster if they didn't have a conveyor belt of talent coming through.


The criticism is good for Munster though. Just like Munsters success in the 00s was good for Leinster, Leinster's success now especially in their underage development, is good for Munster. Nothing like being compared to a similar team to know where you stand. Probably why Irish and Welsh fans always, instinctively compared their teams to each other.

The measure of the improvement of the academy is the number of Munster players we now see making the Ireland U20 squad.
There was a time when it looked like we were lucky to get a player or 2 into the squad.
Not only are we seeing greater numbers of Munster players making the squad, we are also seeing some very talented players making it.

Hopefully this all translates to seeing 1 or 2 lads make the senior squad each year, which over a few years means that the percentage of homegrown talents in the senior squad increases to a much better level.

The biggest positive of this conversation is that the facts were laid out.
I honestly think that some posters were ignorant to the percentage of non Leinster players in their squad, I am basing this on the volume of negative comments directed towards Munster, Ulster and Connacht.

At least now they may give a bit more leeway or offer constructive criticism rather than outright disgust.

[Xanthippe]

Below is the % of Leinster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 78%
  06/07 = 68%
  07/08 = 68%
  08/09 = 66%
  09/10 = 63%
  10/11 = 72%
  11/12 = 65%
  12/13 = 63%
  13/14 = 64%
  14/15 = 69%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 73%
  17/18 = 76%
  18/19 = 79%
  19/20 = 83%

The average per season is 71%


Below is the % of Munster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 77%
  06/07 = 66%
  07/08 = 79%
  08/09 = 82%
  09/10 = 71%
  10/11 = 78%
  11/12 = 76%
  12/13 = 74%
  13/14 = 73%
  14/15 = 70%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 69%
  17/18 = 63%
  18/19 = 60%
  19/20 = 63%

The average per season is 71%

[hugonaut]

Below is the % of Leinster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 78%
  06/07 = 68%
  07/08 = 68%
  08/09 = 66%
  09/10 = 63%
  10/11 = 72%
  11/12 = 65%
  12/13 = 63%
  13/14 = 64%
  14/15 = 69%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 73%
  17/18 = 76%
  18/19 = 79%
  19/20 = 83%

The average per season is 71%


Below is the % of Munster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 77%
  06/07 = 66%
  07/08 = 79%
  08/09 = 82%
  09/10 = 71%
  10/11 = 78%
  11/12 = 76%
  12/13 = 74%
  13/14 = 73%
  14/15 = 70%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 69%
  17/18 = 63%
  18/19 = 60%
  19/20 = 63%

The average per season is 71%

Great research Xan.

[Xanthippe]

Great research Xan.

Part of me is hoping the similarities in the numbers might stop the ‘my province is better than your province’ nonsense but I’m not holding my breath

[munster#1]

Great research Xan.

Part of me is hoping the similarities in the numbers might stop the ‘my province is better than your province’ nonsense but I’m not holding my breath

Very interesting stats, and will no doubt be used as a reference point to end a lot of pi551ng contests.

[Dexter]

Great research Xan.

Part of me is hoping the similarities in the numbers might stop the ‘my province is better than your province’ nonsense but I’m not holding my breath

Brilliant research! At the risk of starting another willy waving contest, but I'll say it anyway, the trend is probably more pertinent than the overall average.

[The Doc]

Great research Xan.

Part of me is hoping the similarities in the numbers might stop the ‘my province is better than your province’ nonsense but I’m not holding my breath

Brilliant research! At the risk of starting another willy waving contest, but I'll say it anyway, the trend is probably more pertinent than the overall average.

I was wondering who'd jump in on that -