Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[Up Wexford]

Great post, the stats and research here could be done up and presented at a provincial development meeting and not look out of place.

I suppose the crux of it for Munster is we can establish all the parameters and arguments we like on this board but on a macro level something just dont feel right in Munster and all the micro reasons have really been thought out here. My two cents is JVG might be in over his head and a calcification at the top committee-for-life level at Munster. To use the converse as an example, something was going very right at Connacht under Lam and we werent scrambling to pick out the exact percentage stat to prove who was right.

But it is a fact too that Munsters success in the 00's drove Leinster to our current highs and I think that this will in turn drive Munsters success in the future. This is what we need to be wary of in Leinster. The have an excellent young coach in ROG just waiting to strike when the time is right, Dennis Leamy i think is working with Leinster and presumably soaking up everything he possibly can, and O' Connell is an exceptional rugby brain again waiting in the wings. Keeping Leamy, bringing some of those excellent u20's into the Leinster set up and maintaining the Cork Limerick divide are just some of the ways we at Leinster can indirectly influence this. We want a strong Munster of course, but always clearly in second place, psychologically and talent wise.

I cannot wait for the potential August Interpro tournament!

[paddyor]

Cian Tracy suggesting that van Graan will be letting a high number of players go at the end of this season, much as he did at the end of last season [link: https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/ ... 1040607240 ].

Last season it was
- Stephen Fitzgerald,
- James Hart,
- Ian Keatley,
- Bill Johnston,
- Dave O'Callaghan,
- Ronan O'Mahony,
- Mike Sherry,
- Jaco Taute and
- Duncan Williams [9], a couple of whom were retirees.

This season, Tracy lists
- Arno Botha [9+7/794 mins in 2019-20 | 14+13/1313 mins in 2018-19],
- Sam Arnold [6+3/480 mins in 2019-20 | 8+8/702 mins in 2018-19],
- Darren O'Shea [5+3/328 mins in 2019-20 | 5+7/452 mins in 2018-19],
- Conor Oliver [0+2/37 mins in 2019-20 | 3+1/194 mins in 2018-19],
- Sean O'Connor [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+2/41 mins in 2018-19],
- Ciaran Parker [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+9/106 mins in 2018-19],
- Brian Scott [0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+3/31 mins in 2018-19] and
- Jack Stafford [academy, 0+0/0 mins in 2019-20 | 0+0/0 mins in 2018-19].

There is a significant difference between the two years in that van Graan was initially clearing out players he had inherited, and now he is clearing out players he signed himself. He gave all of these lads contracts and, in quite a few instances, snipped

Scott is retiring due to injury troubles per the 42

https://www.the42.ie/brian-scott-retire ... =shortlink

[munster#1]

Yet another player leaving. Very sad for any player to have to retire, especially when they are being robbed of their prime years.

At this rate Munster will have to increase their squad number through promotion and/or outside help.

[ronk]

Great post, the stats and research here could be done up and presented at a provincial development meeting and not look out of place.

I suppose the crux of it for Munster is we can establish all the parameters and arguments we like on this board but on a macro level something just dont feel right in Munster and all the micro reasons have really been thought out here. My two cents is JVG might be in over his head and a calcification at the top committee-for-life level at Munster. To use the converse as an example, something was going very right at Connacht under Lam and we werent scrambling to pick out the exact percentage stat to prove who was right.

But it is a fact too that Munsters success in the 00's drove Leinster to our current highs and I think that this will in turn drive Munsters success in the future. This is what we need to be wary of in Leinster. The have an excellent young coach in ROG just waiting to strike when the time is right, Dennis Leamy i think is working with Leinster and presumably soaking up everything he possibly can, and O' Connell is an exceptional rugby brain again waiting in the wings. Keeping Leamy, bringing some of those excellent u20's into the Leinster set up and maintaining the Cork Limerick divide are just some of the ways we at Leinster can indirectly influence this. We want a strong Munster of course, but always clearly in second place, psychologically and talent wise.

I cannot wait for the potential August Interpro tournament!

POC? Why not give Martin Johnson a job? Great player, not a coach.

[deco]

Yet another player leaving. Very sad for any player to have to retire, especially when they are being robbed of their prime years.

At this rate Munster will have to increase their squad number through promotion and/or outside help.

Is it not 3 leaving?

[Up Wexford]

I think O Connell has been very smart in all his interviews and in his thinking about being a rugby/Muster coach. He has very specifically shied away from high profile jobs, I think his only coaching experience thus far is a couple of months in Racing Metro, underage work and general helping out in the Munster rugby set up. Every player when asked about O Connell immediately comments on his high level rugby intelligence (even Sexton) and his embracing marginal gains which I would think would translate very well into a coaching set up. I would not have him in a high profile role but I would have him part of any coaching ticket, even ours. In fairness to Munster they have been consistently excellent in the line out throughout the years, definitely better than us, and I would have him for that reason alone.

I think POC in a back room role would be very different to the Martin Johnson situation, he was woefully bad at his job, went in at the highest level, and despite all that I don't recall it being allll that bad...?? We need only look as far as Leo to see how effective the combination of rugby intelligence and a lack of (public!) ego can be in the running of a rugby club.

Of course this is all surface level knowledge, maybe munsterfan1 has kept a closer eye on O Connell and if he has realistic ambitions to get back into rugby?

[blockhead]

There is a schism in the Munster coaching ticket from what I've heard. The 2 Saffers don't seem to get along with Rowntree and Larkham. Things would want to get better pretty quick for Munster or JVG might be told to fup off home. Adding ROG to Larkham and Rowntree could be seen as the dream ticket for the Limerick team.
You'd think POC couldn't be anything other than a great coach, but you just never can tell. If I was a betting man I would have put my money on him as the most likely to become successful at coaching. He'll need to get cracking on it soon or he could be left behind.

[munster#1]

I think O Connell has been very smart in all his interviews and in his thinking about being a rugby/Muster coach. He has very specifically shied away from high profile jobs, I think his only coaching experience thus far is a couple of months in Racing Metro, underage work and general helping out in the Munster rugby set up. Every player when asked about O Connell immediately comments on his high level rugby intelligence (even Sexton) and his embracing marginal gains which I would think would translate very well into a coaching set up. I would not have him in a high profile role but I would have him part of any coaching ticket, even ours. In fairness to Munster they have been consistently excellent in the line out throughout the years, definitely better than us, and I would have him for that reason alone.

I think POC in a back room role would be very different to the Martin Johnson situation, he was woefully bad at his job, went in at the highest level, and despite all that I don't recall it being allll that bad...?? We need only look as far as Leo to see how effective the combination of rugby intelligence and a lack of (public!) ego can be in the running of a rugby club.

Of course this is all surface level knowledge, maybe munsterfan1 has kept a closer eye on O Connell and if he has realistic ambitions to get back into rugby?

There is no doubting that POC has all of the necessary ingredients to become a top class coach.
You never hear as much about any other player as you did about POC when it comes down to details.
How he would effectively be an additional coach even when playing.

What I heard was that the IRFU were very keen to keep him involved in coaching in Ireland prior to his stint in France.

What I am hearing now is that he struggled with the hours it takes to coach at the top level. Given how obsessed he is with the little details, he found himself working non stop, meaning that he had very limited family time.

I was at an aviation event a few years ago in Limerick, and POC was the guest of honour, and he was asked if he had ambitions to get into coaching and he said no, but then he ended up getting involved with the Munster academy, and then the Ireland under 20s, so hard to know what he wants in life.

Coaching is like any job, for any person, just because you are excellent at something doesn’t mean that that is what you want to do.

The dream for Munster would be to have ROG and POC as a coaching duo for Munster, but it is unlikely that we will ever see that.

[Up Wexford]

Fair enough by POC, Ive a feeling we'll have our hands full with ROG in any case!

[ronk]

POC was handed ideal learning roles for someone tipped for bigger things. He could hardly fail but then he did.

This happens often enough with former elite players in many sports, the result is always the same. The only question is how much pain happens first.

[munster#1]

Just listening to off the ball interview with woody and ROG, and ROG said that he sees himself back in Ireland in 2-3 years, when his kids go to secondary school.

Could be ideal timing.

[johng]

Below is the % of Leinster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 78%
  06/07 = 68%
  07/08 = 68%
  08/09 = 66%
  09/10 = 63%
  10/11 = 72%
  11/12 = 65%
  12/13 = 63%
  13/14 = 64%
  14/15 = 69%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 73%
  17/18 = 76%
  18/19 = 79%
  19/20 = 83%

The average per season is 71%

Screamingly obvious what did it. We just needed to get rid of Joe Schmidt. Was all plain sailing after that.

[johng]

And welcome back M1. Long time.

[munster#1]

Yet another player leaving. Very sad for any player to have to retire, especially when they are being robbed of their prime years.

At this rate Munster will have to increase their squad number through promotion and/or outside help.

Is it not 3 leaving?

Confirmed to be going: Tyler, Scott, Oliver, Arnold, O’Connor, O’Shea, Parker and Botha.
That’s 8 so far and 4 new signings confirmed.
9 left last season with only one outside signing.

I am very interested to see what the Plan is.
Do Munster have players lined up to fill these gaps internally, or will they look externally.

With the comings and goings, Munster currently have a senior squad of 39 lined up for next season.
That’s a fairly small squad to carry.

Edit: just remembered that Coombes, mcHenry and O Sullivan will be promoted, so the confirmed squad is 42, so still scope to add a few players.

[ronk]

Below is the % of Leinster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 78%
  06/07 = 68%
  07/08 = 68%
  08/09 = 66%
  09/10 = 63%
  10/11 = 72%
  11/12 = 65%
  12/13 = 63%
  13/14 = 64%
  14/15 = 69%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 73%
  17/18 = 76%
  18/19 = 79%
  19/20 = 83%

The average per season is 71%


Below is the % of Munster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 77%
  06/07 = 66%
  07/08 = 79%
  08/09 = 82%
  09/10 = 71%
  10/11 = 78%
  11/12 = 76%
  12/13 = 74%
  13/14 = 73%
  14/15 = 70%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 69%
  17/18 = 63%
  18/19 = 60%
  19/20 = 63%

The average per season is 71%

It certainly validates the impression that fans have that both squads have moved in very opposite directions.

Leinster have 46 senior players and 8 of them were imports. Bent, Cronin, Fardy, Park, Henshaw, Tomane, Lowe. Ruddock is the other. Bent, Cronin and Rudduck come from the era before we developed so many players. This makes the trend feel more drastic.

Bent, Cronin, Fardy and Tomane don't have many years left. After that we will have Henshaw and Ruddock as IQ by birth; Park and Lowe as ex-projects and I expect us to sign an NIQ at some point over time. I also think the squad size will drop a little (assuming 2 players) as this was a RWC year. So we are on track for 89% internally developed squad.

Going beyond that will be harder and/or take time.

[timothydec77]

Great post, the stats and research here could be done up and presented at a provincial development meeting and not look out of place.

I suppose the crux of it for Munster is we can establish all the parameters and arguments we like on this board but on a macro level something just dont feel right in Munster and all the micro reasons have really been thought out here. My two cents is JVG might be in over his head and a calcification at the top committee-for-life level at Munster. To use the converse as an example, something was going very right at Connacht under Lam and we werent scrambling to pick out the exact percentage stat to prove who was right.

But it is a fact too that Munsters success in the 00's drove Leinster to our current highs and I think that this will in turn drive Munsters success in the future. This is what we need to be wary of in Leinster. The have an excellent young coach in ROG just waiting to strike when the time is right, Dennis Leamy i think is working with Leinster and presumably soaking up everything he possibly can, and O' Connell is an exceptional rugby brain again waiting in the wings. Keeping Leamy, bringing some of those excellent u20's into the Leinster set up and maintaining the Cork Limerick divide are just some of the ways we at Leinster can indirectly influence this. We want a strong Munster of course, but always clearly in second place, psychologically and talent wise.

I cannot wait for the potential August Interpro tournament!

Munster never had any problem keeping the Cork Limerick divide going.

[blockhead]

Great post, the stats and research here could be done up and presented at a provincial development meeting and not look out of place.

I suppose the crux of it for Munster is we can establish all the parameters and arguments we like on this board but on a macro level something just dont feel right in Munster and all the micro reasons have really been thought out here. My two cents is JVG might be in over his head and a calcification at the top committee-for-life level at Munster. To use the converse as an example, something was going very right at Connacht under Lam and we werent scrambling to pick out the exact percentage stat to prove who was right.

But it is a fact too that Munsters success in the 00's drove Leinster to our current highs and I think that this will in turn drive Munsters success in the future. This is what we need to be wary of in Leinster. The have an excellent young coach in ROG just waiting to strike when the time is right, Dennis Leamy i think is working with Leinster and presumably soaking up everything he possibly can, and O' Connell is an exceptional rugby brain again waiting in the wings. Keeping Leamy, bringing some of those excellent u20's into the Leinster set up and maintaining the Cork Limerick divide are just some of the ways we at Leinster can indirectly influence this. We want a strong Munster of course, but always clearly in second place, psychologically and talent wise.

I cannot wait for the potential August Interpro tournament!

Munster never had any problem keeping the Cork Limerick divide going.

Funny you should say that.

"Is there an anti-Munster feeling in Cork? Yes.

"I get it all the time. There isn't a week that goes by where someone doesn't stop me in the street saying 'I've stopped supporting Munster Rugby'.

"I say 'Why?' and they reply that the whole focus is Limerick. The stadium is Limerick, the centre is Limerick, they play in Limerick. There's four PRO12 games a year in Cork - you get Zebre, Cardiff, Dragons and you may get a token [game like] Ospreys or Glasgow.

"It is a worry... the real worry is Munster played Edinburgh [in Limerick] at three o'clock in the afternoon and there were seven or eight thousand there [Note: Official attendance was listed at 12,826 by Munster]... In the old days, when I was driving back to Cork [after games], it would take you hours. Now? It's not an issue."

Who said that?

[Up Wexford]

Music to my ears but troubling signs for our Munster brethren, was it a quote from O' Gara maybe?

Cork City has money and Munster are really going have to win over the merchant families and skilled professionals of Cork. Its well documented here the financial mismanagement of Munster Rugby, the IRFU and Leinster simply cannot prop them up indefinitely. They've made good inroads into West Cork and Waterford but Cork City has to row in with Munster or else they are going to be in this holding pattern forever

[timothydec77]

Great post, the stats and research here could be done up and presented at a provincial development meeting and not look out of place.

I suppose the crux of it for Munster is we can establish all the parameters and arguments we like on this board but on a macro level something just dont feel right in Munster and all the micro reasons have really been thought out here. My two cents is JVG might be in over his head and a calcification at the top committee-for-life level at Munster. To use the converse as an example, something was going very right at Connacht under Lam and we werent scrambling to pick out the exact percentage stat to prove who was right.

But it is a fact too that Munsters success in the 00's drove Leinster to our current highs and I think that this will in turn drive Munsters success in the future. This is what we need to be wary of in Leinster. The have an excellent young coach in ROG just waiting to strike when the time is right, Dennis Leamy i think is working with Leinster and presumably soaking up everything he possibly can, and O' Connell is an exceptional rugby brain again waiting in the wings. Keeping Leamy, bringing some of those excellent u20's into the Leinster set up and maintaining the Cork Limerick divide are just some of the ways we at Leinster can indirectly influence this. We want a strong Munster of course, but always clearly in second place, psychologically and talent wise.

I cannot wait for the potential August Interpro tournament!

Munster never had any problem keeping the Cork Limerick divide going.

Funny you should say that.

"Is there an anti-Munster feeling in Cork? Yes.

"I get it all the time. There isn't a week that goes by where someone doesn't stop me in the street saying 'I've stopped supporting Munster Rugby'.

"I say 'Why?' and they reply that the whole focus is Limerick. The stadium is Limerick, the centre is Limerick, they play in Limerick. There's four PRO12 games a year in Cork - you get Zebre, Cardiff, Dragons and you may get a token [game like] Ospreys or Glasgow.

"It is a worry... the real worry is Munster played Edinburgh [in Limerick] at three o'clock in the afternoon and there were seven or eight thousand there [Note: Official attendance was listed at 12,826 by Munster]... In the old days, when I was driving back to Cork [after games], it would take you hours. Now? It's not an issue."

Who said that?

Donal Lenihan

[munster#1]

Music to my ears but troubling signs for our Munster brethren, was it a quote from O' Gara maybe?

Cork City has money and Munster are really going have to win over the merchant families and skilled professionals of Cork. Its well documented here the financial mismanagement of Munster Rugby, the IRFU and Leinster simply cannot prop them up indefinitely. They've made good inroads into West Cork and Waterford but Cork City has to row in with Munster or else they are going to be in this holding pattern forever

I would put my house on being able to find people in all counties in Leinster outside of Dublin who would say that they do not support Leinster because it is a Dublincentric team.
I have family in Dublin who hate rugby because they see it as a fee paying school game.

You can not cater far everyone, but you can try to cater for as many people as possible.
That quote is obviously from a few years ago, as it mentions the PRO12. Since then great effort and investment was put into Musgrave park, and Munster have visited the possibility of playing some big games, including the Leinster game in Cork.
So they are going in the right direction.

Even with this problem, Munster are constantly one of the best supported teams, with an average attendance that most clubs around the world would be envious of.
All while playing in a city with a fairly small population.