Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[Up Wexford]

I take your point totally munster1, its a great irony to be here pontificating about Munsters problems when we have our own glaring issues here

Maybe glaring is a bit harsh, but capturing Louth, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois Kilkenny etc would be a particular advantage to Leinster rugby. GAA is not strong in the former bar KK and there are strong towns cup teams in each. Interestingly, from the outside looking in, do you see Leinsters very South Dublin identity as holding back the province?

For example, on a personal level growing up I was conflicted as to who to support but it was the emergence of Darce, and Leinster in the professional era embracing a larger remit that swung it for me. My Leinster all timers in a very specific order would be 1)D'Arcy, 2)Tadgh Furlong, 3)BOD, 4) Sean O Brien 5)JVDF and I would bet heavily that many other non south Dublin native Leinster fans would have Sean O Brien right up there.

Is there a Cork native carrying the torch for Munster at the moment a la Strings and RoG? Is Murray Cork?

[timothydec77]

Music to my ears but troubling signs for our Munster brethren, was it a quote from O' Gara maybe?

Cork City has money and Munster are really going have to win over the merchant families and skilled professionals of Cork. Its well documented here the financial mismanagement of Munster Rugby, the IRFU and Leinster simply cannot prop them up indefinitely. They've made good inroads into West Cork and Waterford but Cork City has to row in with Munster or else they are going to be in this holding pattern forever

I would put my house on being able to find people in all counties in Leinster outside of Dublin who would say that they do not support Leinster because it is a Dublincentric team.
I have family in Dublin who hate rugby because they see it as a fee paying school game.

You can not cater far everyone, but you can try to cater for as many people as possible.
That quote is obviously from a few years ago, as it mentions the PRO12. Since then great effort and investment was put into Musgrave park, and Munster have visited the possibility of playing some big games, including the Leinster game in Cork.
So they are going in the right direction.

Even with this problem, Munster are constantly one of the best supported teams, with an average attendance that most clubs around the world would be envious of.
All while playing in a city with a fairly small population.

The Limerick Cork thing is one of those things that made Munster Rugby unique.

[munster#1]

I take your point totally munster1, its a great irony to be here pontificating about Munsters problems when we have our own glaring issues here

Maybe glaring is a bit harsh, but capturing Louth, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois Kilkenny etc would be a particular advantage to Leinster rugby. GAA is not strong in the former bar KK and there are strong towns cup teams in each. Interestingly, from the outside looking in, do you see Leinsters very South Dublin identity as holding back the province?

For example, on a personal level growing up I was conflicted as to who to support but it was the emergence of Darce, and Leinster in the professional era embracing a larger remit that swung it for me. My Leinster all timers in a very specific order would be 1)D'Arcy, 2)Tadgh Furlong, 3)BOD, 4) Sean O Brien 5)JVDF and I would bet heavily that many other non south Dublin native Leinster fans would have Sean O Brien right up there.

Is there a Cork native carrying the torch for Munster at the moment a la Strings and RoG? Is Murray Cork?

I was actually just pointing out, that no matter where you go in the world you will find people who do not support their local team, not matter what sport, for one reason or another.

Munster could definitely do, and are actively trying to do, more for the inclusion of Cork.
Given the size of the market it would be foolish not to.

But all that does not mean that Munster does not already have a massive fan base in Cork.

Leinster are currently the best supported team in Ireland based on bums on seats.
Without doing the math, I would suspect that there is little to split Munster and Ulster.

If you were to base attendance success /failure on the percentage of the Potential market which attend matches, then Munster are by far the most successful.

The potential market (population of the provinces) for each franchise is as follows:
Leinster - 2,630,720
Ulster - 2,158,850
Munster - 1,280,394
Connacht - 550,742

Based on 2016 census. For Ulster the numbers also include 2016 mid year population estimates.

Going on those numbers, would you say that Munster have underperformed in getting people through the gates.
Would you say that Leinster have been successful in that matter?

[timothydec77]

The biggest problem is the Cork Limerick road as everyone knows its an national embarrassment.

It turns a 100KM journey into a 2 hour each way journey on match days.

[Up Wexford]

Interesting stuff, when you break it down like that Munster Rugbys penetration into the province and Ireland at large is to be commended.

Blind spot but I never knew Ulster was so populous. I suppose to concede the Leinster point, teams in capitals or big rich cities should always be the best - Yankees in baseball, Arsenal in London, Real in Madrid etc so definitely Leinster could be doing more in the city. But Dublin GAA is the real behemoth here, im no football man but it engages everyone from the flats to CEO's and all points in between. They break out the bunting for all Ireland but not for our latter day European successes.

Interestingly the Dub football thing was a 20 year project that any sports club administrator should study. I know for a fact they took a lot of ideas from Leinster during the time and applied it to themselves. A possible template for Munster to borrow aspects from in their development plan?

And also, I might have a little pop here and there but everything is posted up in good faith! Theres no rugby on so all we have left to do is think about it

[Up Wexford]

Commuting to games is an issue everywhere I think unfortunately, especially for non essential PRO 14 games youd be hard pushed to drag people in for a Zebre or Kings match. I do know some season ticket stalwarts who come up and down 120km each way from wexford tho!

[OTT]

Leinster are currently the best supported team in Ireland based on bums on seats.

Thank you for the acknowledgement

[munster#1]

Interesting stuff, when you break it down like that Munster Rugbys penetration into the province and Ireland at large is to be commended.

Blind spot but I never knew Ulster was so populous. I suppose to concede the Leinster point, teams in capitals or big rich cities should always be the best - Yankees in baseball, Arsenal in London, Real in Madrid etc so definitely Leinster could be doing more in the city. But Dublin GAA is the real behemoth here, im no football man but it engages everyone from the flats to CEO's and all points in between. They break out the bunting for all Ireland but not for our latter day European successes.

Interestingly the Dub football thing was a 20 year project that any sports club administrator should study. I know for a fact they took a lot of ideas from Leinster during the time and applied it to themselves. A possible template for Munster to borrow aspects from in their development plan?

And also, I might have a little pop here and there but everything is posted up in good faith! Theres no rugby on so all we have left to do is think about it

Don’t worry at all, I have fairly thick skin so it doesn’t really bother me, it is just another point that I find interesting.
Since Leinster took Munster’s mantle as the countries best supported province, it is a regular occurrence to see posts slating Munster for a perceived poor attendance.

It just seems that no logic is applied to these comments.
For example, without doing hours of research, it is probably fair to say that there are more people living within an hour of RDS than there are in the entire province of Munster.
There are 100k more people living in Kildare than there are in Cork city.

Based on market size Leinster should have at least double the attendance of Munster before you consider their market penetration as level.

So either Munster are doing a very good job (which I think is the case) or Leinster and Ulster are doing a very poor job.

This is not me having a go at Leinster, I just find the whole thing very interesting, as I’m sure many other would if they looked at the numbers.

[paddyor]

Music to my ears but troubling signs for our Munster brethren, was it a quote from O' Gara maybe?

Cork City has money and Munster are really going have to win over the merchant families and skilled professionals of Cork. Its well documented here the financial mismanagement of Munster Rugby, the IRFU and Leinster simply cannot prop them up indefinitely. They've made good inroads into West Cork and Waterford but Cork City has to row in with Munster or else they are going to be in this holding pattern forever

I would put my house on being able to find people in all counties in Leinster outside of Dublin who would say that they do not support Leinster because it is a Dublincentric team.
I have family in Dublin who hate rugby because they see it as a fee paying school game.

You can not cater far everyone, but you can try to cater for as many people as possible.
That quote is obviously from a few years ago, as it mentions the PRO12. Since then great effort and investment was put into Musgrave park, and Munster have visited the possibility of playing some big games, including the Leinster game in Cork.
So they are going in the right direction.

Even with this problem, Munster are constantly one of the best supported teams, with an average attendance that most clubs around the world would be envious of.
All while playing in a city with a fairly small population.

That's not much of a bet though is it? I'll bet you €1m that there's people in every county in Munster that don't support Munster because reasons.

The roots of Munster Rugby is split between the 2 "cities" and if resentment is building in one because they feel it's become centred on the other then that's a thing. And it was a thing(why they delayed centralizing the training base etc) and will likely continue to be a thing.

[Up Wexford]

Attendance wise, definitely it can be worked on. But in all other pillars, talent, players, success, commercial, political, coaching, I think we are really performing well.

I suppose Munsters highs were so high that even though no one can consider consistent Euro semi finals a low it does feel a bit off? And by any measure your 20/21 roster is all star, I suppose its about getting them to perform to expectations now

[Keith]

Interesting stuff, when you break it down like that Munster Rugbys penetration into the province and Ireland at large is to be commended.

Blind spot but I never knew Ulster was so populous. I suppose to concede the Leinster point, teams in capitals or big rich cities should always be the best - Yankees in baseball, Arsenal in London, Real in Madrid etc so definitely Leinster could be doing more in the city. But Dublin GAA is the real behemoth here, im no football man but it engages everyone from the flats to CEO's and all points in between. They break out the bunting for all Ireland but not for our latter day European successes.

Interestingly the Dub football thing was a 20 year project that any sports club administrator should study. I know for a fact they took a lot of ideas from Leinster during the time and applied it to themselves. A possible template for Munster to borrow aspects from in their development plan?

And also, I might have a little pop here and there but everything is posted up in good faith! Theres no rugby on so all we have left to do is think about it

Don’t worry at all, I have fairly thick skin so it doesn’t really bother me, it is just another point that I find interesting.
Since Leinster took Munster’s mantle as the countries best supported province, it is a regular occurrence to see posts slating Munster for a perceived poor attendance.

It just seems that no logic is applied to these comments.
For example, without doing hours of research, it is probably fair to say that there are more people living within an hour of RDS than there are in the entire province of Munster.
There are 100k more people living in Kildare than there are in Cork city.

Based on market size Leinster should have at least double the attendance of Munster before you consider their market penetration as level.

So either Munster are doing a very good job (which I think is the case) or Leinster and Ulster are doing a very poor job.

This is not me having a go at Leinster, I just find the whole thing very interesting, as I’m sure many other would if they looked at the numbers.

The answer is that both Munster and Leinster's attendances are poor in the league, especially when comparing to teams in the Top 14 like La Rochelle who sell out every week despite a much smaller population. Our away attendances in Europe however are the envy of the rugby world I'd imagine and one of the reasons why we are so crucial to the success of the Heineken cup.

[heno]

It just seems that no logic is applied to these comments.

Surely the logic behind the comments is Munster had customer base, built a stadium to cater for that base, had to get bailed out to build that stadium, and now seem to have lost a lot of that customer base.

Might be simplistic, but no more simplistic than we didn't deserve that customer base because population and motorway.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[ronk]

The league attendances of Leinster and Munster are really good. Lots of places would love to come close to what we have. A few spots might do better, but we do really well and have grown quickly from a tiny base.

Most of the places with better attendances have much longer histories of regular large attendances and operate in bigger richer markets.

[Keith]

The league attendances of Leinster and Munster are really good. Lots of places would love to come close to what we have. A few spots might do better, but we do really well and have grown quickly from a tiny base.

Most of the places with better attendances have much longer histories of regular large attendances and operate in bigger richer markets.

I'm sorry but our attendances are not great (especially when you subtract the STH that didn't go to the game but are still counted in the attendance) in the league considering the large and wealthy population we have, how spoiled we have been with the success and brand of rugby we have played for a decade now. I know that the league does fail to capture the imagination of a lot of the casual watchers but I do remember us getting 16k to a regular league game against Treviso back around 2012 I think? That is where I think we should really be. We have seen our attendances dip under and around the 10k mark in certain games in the league in recent times, which I don't think is acceptable. We're more than established enough now to be comparing ourselves to clubs in other leagues and our huge attendances in Europe shows that.

[The Doc]

.... (especially when you subtract the STH that didn't go to the game but are still counted in the attendance)

... but I do remember us getting 16k to a regular league game against Treviso back around 2012 I think?

... We have seen our attendances dip under and around the 10k mark in certain games in the league in recent times,

Third statement doesn't match with first one.

Leinster doesn't include all ST in attendances any more. They used to (hence the middle statement) - I doubt we ever actually had 16k at a Treviso game

[munster#1]

It just seems that no logic is applied to these comments.

Surely the logic behind the comments is Munster had customer base, built a stadium to cater for that base, had to get bailed out to build that stadium, and now seem to have lost a lot of that customer base.

Might be simplistic, but no more simplistic than we didn't deserve that customer base because population and motorway.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

There is no arguing that Munster’s attendances have dipped since the first couple of years of the new stadium, but you surely have to account for the serious recession we went into right after the stadium opened.
Limerick in particular was severely hit by the recession with around 23% unemployment. Meaning between one in 4 or 5 people were left with no income.
Many who retained their jobs (myself included, although not from Limerick) took considerable pay cuts to sustain their jobs.
At this very same time, Munster started underperforming on the pitch (in comparison to their height), so many of the tag along fans lost interest.

Even then Munster were still drawing in bigger crowds than most for the HC, and have done so ever since.

I think it is fair to say that what little shine was on the league has now gone, with even Leinster struggling to fill a smaller stadium.
The quality of rugby has been extremely diluted, with the provinces able to put out fairly weak teams week on week and win most games.

But, I do agree that Munster could do more, but I have a feeling that it won’t be in the next 2 years, as we are going straight back into another recession.

[Dave Cahill]

I'm sorry but our attendances are not great (especially when you subtract the STH that didn't go to the game but are still counted in the attendance) in the league considering the large and wealthy population we have, how spoiled we have been with the success and brand of rugby we have played for a decade now. I know that the league does fail to capture the imagination of a lot of the casual watchers but I do remember us getting 16k to a regular league game against Treviso back around 2012 I think? That is where I think we should really be. We have seen our attendances dip under and around the 10k mark in certain games in the league in recent times, which I don't think is acceptable. We're more than established enough now to be comparing ourselves to clubs in other leagues and our huge attendances in Europe shows that.

Firstly, STHs are not counted in the attendance en bloc - they used to be but that was some time ago.

Leinster's core support is roughly 9790 - thats the number of people who will turn up to a competitive Leinster game no matter what. After that a number of factors come into play to add the cream to that. Which competition is it, who are Leinster playing, who is playing for Leinster, how Leinster are doing in the competition, what day it is, what time it is, what Allianz League game is on, is there a big concert on, what's the weather like - loads of things. Rugby is still a minority sport in Ireland and attendances are very sensitive to external factors.

[blockhead]

The league attendances of Leinster and Munster are really good. Lots of places would love to come close to what we have. A few spots might do better, but we do really well and have grown quickly from a tiny base.

Most of the places with better attendances have much longer histories of regular large attendances and operate in bigger richer markets.

I'm sorry but our attendances are not great (especially when you subtract the STH that didn't go to the game but are still counted in the attendance) in the league considering the large and wealthy population we have, how spoiled we have been with the success and brand of rugby we have played for a decade now. I know that the league does fail to capture the imagination of a lot of the casual watchers but I do remember us getting 16k to a regular league game against Treviso back around 2012 I think? That is where I think we should really be. We have seen our attendances dip under and around the 10k mark in certain games in the league in recent times, which I don't think is acceptable. We're more than established enough now to be comparing ourselves to clubs in other leagues and our huge attendances in Europe shows that.

12,800 STHs.
Hard to equate both these sentences. Does not compute.

[blockhead]

Interesting stuff, when you break it down like that Munster Rugbys penetration into the province and Ireland at large is to be commended.

Blind spot but I never knew Ulster was so populous. I suppose to concede the Leinster point, teams in capitals or big rich cities should always be the best - Yankees in baseball, Arsenal in London, Real in Madrid etc so definitely Leinster could be doing more in the city. But Dublin GAA is the real behemoth here, im no football man but it engages everyone from the flats to CEO's and all points in between. They break out the bunting for all Ireland but not for our latter day European successes.

Interestingly the Dub football thing was a 20 year project that any sports club administrator should study. I know for a fact they took a lot of ideas from Leinster during the time and applied it to themselves. A possible template for Munster to borrow aspects from in their development plan?

And also, I might have a little pop here and there but everything is posted up in good faith! Theres no rugby on so all we have left to do is think about it

Don’t worry at all, I have fairly thick skin so it doesn’t really bother me, it is just another point that I find interesting.
Since Leinster took Munster’s mantle as the countries best supported province, it is a regular occurrence to see posts slating Munster for a perceived poor attendance.

It just seems that no logic is applied to these comments.
For example, without doing hours of research, it is probably fair to say that there are more people living within an hour of RDS than there are in the entire province of Munster.
There are 100k more people living in Kildare than there are in Cork city.

Based on market size Leinster should have at least double the attendance of Munster before you consider their market penetration as level.

So either Munster are doing a very good job (which I think is the case) or Leinster and Ulster are doing a very poor job.

This is not me having a go at Leinster, I just find the whole thing very interesting, as I’m sure many other would if they looked at the numbers.

So is that why you ran out of here 3 years ago swearing never to come back?

[Keith]

The league attendances of Leinster and Munster are really good. Lots of places would love to come close to what we have. A few spots might do better, but we do really well and have grown quickly from a tiny base.

Most of the places with better attendances have much longer histories of regular large attendances and operate in bigger richer markets.

I'm sorry but our attendances are not great (especially when you subtract the STH that didn't go to the game but are still counted in the attendance) in the league considering the large and wealthy population we have, how spoiled we have been with the success and brand of rugby we have played for a decade now. I know that the league does fail to capture the imagination of a lot of the casual watchers but I do remember us getting 16k to a regular league game against Treviso back around 2012 I think? That is where I think we should really be. We have seen our attendances dip under and around the 10k mark in certain games in the league in recent times, which I don't think is acceptable. We're more than established enough now to be comparing ourselves to clubs in other leagues and our huge attendances in Europe shows that.

12,800 STHs.
Hard to equate both these sentences. Does not compute.

Why?