Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[wixfjord]

Personally I think we're under-performing when it comes to drawing crowds.

One of Europe's most successful teams playing in a large city with little other pro sport to speak of. In comparison to some of the minor towns and cities in France & England our crowds are not huge by any means.

I appreciate rugby isn't as well supported as GAA/soccer but still looking at the numbers we should be doing better at drawing in new fans. The marketing team have a big part to play in this.

Part of the problem is also the quality of the facilities. It's a winter game predominately and the RDS just isn't inviting for a wet & windy Friday night. A move to a summer game would have a HUGE impact.

But I do find it a bit rich to be having a go at Munster for attendances when per capita we should be blowing them out of the water.

(I appreciate part of the 'poke fun at Munster's crowds' bit is how they and the media have painted themselves as the best fans in the world (TM) albeit)

[FLIP]

(I appreciate part of the 'poke fun at Munster's crowds' bit is how they and the media have painted themselves as the best fans in the world (TM) albeit)

Part? It's the vast majority of it, the rest being how they leach off of us because of their failure.

[wixfjord]

(I appreciate part of the 'poke fun at Munster's crowds' bit is how they and the media have painted themselves as the best fans in the world (TM) albeit)

Part? It's the vast majority of it, the rest being how they leach off of us because of their failure.

That's great, but it also distorts the reality that our crowds are nothing to write home about either.

So taking the point scoring out of it, there's very little to be bragging about.

[munster#1]

(I appreciate part of the 'poke fun at Munster's crowds' bit is how they and the media have painted themselves as the best fans in the world (TM) albeit)

Part? It's the vast majority of it, the rest being how they leach off of us because of their failure.

That's great, but it also distorts the reality that our crowds are nothing to write home about either.

So taking the point scoring out of it, there's very little to be bragging about.

I am glad that this has now been discussed.
I am in no way trying to claim that Munster are the model citizen, but at least by laying out the facts, it might take another bullet out of the gun when shots are fired.

Comparing like with like, then all of Leinster’s games should be played in the Aviva, or a stadium with a similar capacity.
Leinster have over 1.5 million people living within an hour of the RDS yet had only 7967 fans at the cheetahs game, and only 15k at the Treviso game in the Heineken Cup.

Imagine how good Leinster would be if they could increase their market share.

Both Munster and Leinster have work to do, but Leinster have far greater scope for improvement.

[Up Wexford]

While a packed Aviva does sound enticing, there is something very unique and special about the RDS and I would certainly be aiming for a consistent 18k in the RDS. It is a really really good match day experience, tradition, good buzz, plenty of bars, the Anglesea stand might have shite viewing but it has character, you are more or less sitting beside the players like a club match if youre in the terrace. Its all relative of course, it does have flaws, but there are stadiums a hell of a lot worse.

And look, lets face facts, the RDS is simply never going to be a bear pit. Its in the Leinster DNA, what makes us great its that private school level headed-ness under pressure (entitlement might be another word ) and that is translated onto the stands, we can be very casual about a game of rugby.

But I think Dub GAA is a huge factor, just because the are not a pro team dont count against them, in fact it obviously endears the city to them more. Its our main rival in terms of fandom and we could work with them because against them I think we get no where. Be under no illusions, they are a very professional set up.

One of the best match day experiences I was at was the Euro quarter final in Toulon town in '16 (maybe 15?). The Mayol is right in the town center right beside the Marina, and it always reminded me of what a hyped up RDS could be.

[wixfjord]

I am glad that this has now been discussed.
I am in no way trying to claim that Munster are the model citizen, but at least by laying out the facts, it might take another bullet out of the gun when shots are fired.

Comparing like with like, then all of Leinster’s games should be played in the Aviva, or a stadium with a similar capacity.
Leinster have over 1.5 million people living within an hour of the RDS yet had only 7967 fans at the cheetahs game, and only 15k at the Treviso game in the Heineken Cup.

Imagine how good Leinster would be if they could increase their market share.

Both Munster and Leinster have work to do, but Leinster have far greater scope for improvement.

I agree, if you compare Leinster to say Bath/Bristol/La Rochelle/Northampton we probably don't stack up well at all. There's huge scope for improvement.

I do think the 1.5m number is a bit of a red herring though.

The market is bigger, but it's also a very different type of market. Those 1.5m people are not all ready and waiting Leinster fans who just need to be told about the game. They include hundreds of thousands of people who will never go to a game and have no interest in rugby.

Also Dublin's entertainment market is far better developed than any other area in the country meaning competition is much higher.
For example Blackburn can get 15k people to show up for a game but a club of that level in London would find it hard because there's much more to do.

[The Doc]

12,800 STHs.
Hard to equate both these sentences. Does not compute.

Why?

Because if (a) ST are included in attendance numbers and (b) Leinster has 12,800 ST's then how do you get an attendance at a game < 12,800?

[wixfjord]

While a packed Aviva does sound enticing, there is something very unique and special about the RDS and I would certainly be aiming for a consistent 18k in the RDS. It is a really really good match day experience, tradition, good buzz, plenty of bars, the Anglesea stand might have shite viewing but it has character, you are more or less sitting beside the players like a club match if youre in the terrace. Its all relative of course, it does have flaws, but there are stadiums a hell of a lot worse.

And look, lets face facts, the RDS is simply never going to be a bear pit. Its in the Leinster DNA, what makes us great its that private school level headed-ness under pressure (entitlement might be another word ) and that is translated onto the stands, we can be very casual about a game of rugby.

But I think Dub GAA is a huge factor, just because the are not a pro team dont count against them, in fact it obviously endears the city to them more. Its our main rival in terms of fandom and we could work with them because against them I think we get no where. Be under no illusions, they are a very professional set up.

One of the best match day experiences I was at was the Euro quarter final in Toulon town in '16 (maybe 15?). The Mayol is right in the town center right beside the Marina, and it always reminded me of what a hyped up RDS could be.

Yes Dublin GAA is clearly the big draw. They're also a case study to learn from - playing in a stadium with better facilities can draw in 'occasion' crowds, particularly during the summer.

[johng]

12,800 STHs.
Hard to equate both these sentences. Does not compute.

Why?

Because if (a) ST are included in attendance numbers and (b) Leinster has 12,800 ST's then how do you get an attendance at a game < 12,800?

This was the post before blockhead's, Dave Cahill answered in his time machine from the future.

Firstly, STHs are not counted in the attendance en bloc - they used to be but that was some time ago.

Leinster's core support is roughly 9790 - thats the number of people who will turn up to a competitive Leinster game no matter what. After that a number of factors come into play to add the cream to that. Which competition is it, who are Leinster playing, who is playing for Leinster, how Leinster are doing in the competition, what day it is, what time it is, what Allianz League game is on, is there a big concert on, what's the weather like - loads of things. Rugby is still a minority sport in Ireland and attendances are very sensitive to external factors.

[Dexter]

I am glad that this has now been discussed.
I am in no way trying to claim that Munster are the model citizen, but at least by laying out the facts, it might take another bullet out of the gun when shots are fired.

Comparing like with like, then all of Leinster’s games should be played in the Aviva, or a stadium with a similar capacity.
Leinster have over 1.5 million people living within an hour of the RDS yet had only 7967 fans at the cheetahs game, and only 15k at the Treviso game in the Heineken Cup.

Imagine how good Leinster would be if they could increase their market share.

Both Munster and Leinster have work to do, but Leinster have far greater scope for improvement.

I agree, if you compare Leinster to say Bath/Bristol/La Rochelle/Northampton we probably don't stack up well at all. There's huge scope for improvement.

I do think the 1.5m number is a bit of a red herring though.

The market is bigger, but it's also a very different type of market. Those 1.5m people are not all ready and waiting Leinster fans who just need to be told about the game. They include hundreds of thousands of people who will never go to a game and have no interest in rugby.

Also Dublin's entertainment market is far better developed than any other area in the country meaning competition is much higher.
For example Blackburn can get 15k people to show up for a game but a club of that level in London would find it hard because there's much more to do.

Exactly. A load of that 1.5m are people from outside Dublin and Leinster. Some are even from Munster, heaven forbid!
So talking about a 1.5m base to draw support from is a load of b0*&0x.... imho

[ronk]

Yes Dublin GAA is clearly the big draw. They're also a case study to learn from - playing in a stadium with better facilities can draw in 'occasion' crowds, particularly during the summer.

And we do that. We have 2 non-knockout games in Aviva every year. They have been successful and they draw some fans from the smaller fixtures.

The GAA have the huge advantage of not having to pay salaries for players.

Comparison is all well and good but we only moved into the RDS 15 years ago. We have grown from a very small base. We do well in an Irish context compared to all but a few high profile (and not as frequent) events. Even within rugby there is massive competition for the Pro14 in Leinster. There is the 6N, the other Ireland games, the Lions, the Heineken Cup.

The Pro14 has done well but look at the rest of it in terms of draw: tiny crowds for Italy and South Africa, underwhelming Wales and a struggling Scotland. It's still a relatively new tournament trying to build a base.

It's nonsense to compare to provincial towns with large hinterlands in 100 year old competitions with long established rivalries and many strong teams.

[Up Wexford]

Definitely take your point, its not like for like of course, and the amateur ethos if the GAA is the biggest trick the devil ever pulled of course.

I think Leinster are really ticking a lot of boxes under Cullen and Lancaster at the moment in terms of a really enjoyable sporting club and while it is not essential to us that we grow the fan base, surely it can do no harm?

Also wow, is the RDS only 15 years ago? Hahah tradition argument out the window so

Was there occasional games in the RDS or was it only newly converted to rugby recently?

[Keith]

12,800 STHs.
Hard to equate both these sentences. Does not compute.

Why?

Because if (a) ST are included in attendance numbers and (b) Leinster has 12,800 ST's then how do you get an attendance at a game < 12,800?

Simple by STHs not turning up to the game... I really don't know what the confusion is here. John brought up Dave's quote about Leinster not couning STHs who don't show up to the game anymore, which I hope is true. There have certainly been games against the Dragons and Zebre which have had reported attendances of over 10k when quite clearly there wasn't.

[munster#1]

I am glad that this has now been discussed.
I am in no way trying to claim that Munster are the model citizen, but at least by laying out the facts, it might take another bullet out of the gun when shots are fired.

Comparing like with like, then all of Leinster’s games should be played in the Aviva, or a stadium with a similar capacity.
Leinster have over 1.5 million people living within an hour of the RDS yet had only 7967 fans at the cheetahs game, and only 15k at the Treviso game in the Heineken Cup.

Imagine how good Leinster would be if they could increase their market share.

Both Munster and Leinster have work to do, but Leinster have far greater scope for improvement.

I agree, if you compare Leinster to say Bath/Bristol/La Rochelle/Northampton we probably don't stack up well at all. There's huge scope for improvement.

I do think the 1.5m number is a bit of a red herring though.

The market is bigger, but it's also a very different type of market. Those 1.5m people are not all ready and waiting Leinster fans who just need to be told about the game. They include hundreds of thousands of people who will never go to a game and have no interest in rugby.

Also Dublin's entertainment market is far better developed than any other area in the country meaning competition is much higher.
For example Blackburn can get 15k people to show up for a game but a club of that level in London would find it hard because there's much more to do.

Exactly. A load of that 1.5m are people from outside Dublin and Leinster. Some are even from Munster, heaven forbid!
So talking about a 1.5m base to draw support from is a load of b0*&0x.... imho

The current population of Dublin is estimated at 1.38m, the population of Kildare is 222k, in addition to those many in Wicklow, Meath, Louth, Carlow, Laoise, West Meath and Offaly all with in an hour, I think it is pretty fair to say that there are more than 1.5m potential Leinster fans living within an hour of the RDS.

Granted, you are not wrong, there are also people within an hour of the RDS that are from Munster.

[wixfjord]

Yes Dublin GAA is clearly the big draw. They're also a case study to learn from - playing in a stadium with better facilities can draw in 'occasion' crowds, particularly during the summer.

And we do that. We have 2 non-knockout games in Aviva every year. They have been successful and they draw some fans from the smaller fixtures.

The GAA have the huge advantage of not having to pay salaries for players.

Comparison is all well and good but we only moved into the RDS 15 years ago. We have grown from a very small base. We do well in an Irish context compared to all but a few high profile (and not as frequent) events. Even within rugby there is massive competition for the Pro14 in Leinster. There is the 6N, the other Ireland games, the Lions, the Heineken Cup.

The Pro14 has done well but look at the rest of it in terms of draw: tiny crowds for Italy and South Africa, underwhelming Wales and a struggling Scotland. It's still a relatively new tournament trying to build a base.

It's nonsense to compare to provincial towns with large hinterlands in 100 year old competitions with long established rivalries and many strong teams.

Yep, and Dublin manage to do it many more times a year. There might be something we can learn from there.

If you reckon it's 'nonsense' then fair enough. But they're maximising their crowds for league games far more than we are. The head in the sand approach isn't useful imo.

We should be open enough admit that we're not capitalising enough on the opportunity at the minute and some tweaks might change that.

[wixfjord]

The current population of Dublin is estimated at 1.38m, the population of Kildare is 222k, in addition to those many in Wicklow, Meath, Louth, Carlow, Laoise, West Meath and Offaly all with in an hour, I think it is pretty fair to say that there are more than 1.5m potential Leinster fans living within an hour of the RDS.

Granted, you are not wrong, there are also people within an hour of the RDS that are from Munster.

There are 1.5m people living within that distance.

A large amount of them are not potential Leinster fans for various reasons.

Which is why it's a red herring.

[munster#1]

The current population of Dublin is estimated at 1.38m, the population of Kildare is 222k, in addition to those many in Wicklow, Meath, Louth, Carlow, Laoise, West Meath and Offaly all with in an hour, I think it is pretty fair to say that there are more than 1.5m potential Leinster fans living within an hour of the RDS.

Granted, you are not wrong, there are also people within an hour of the RDS that are from Munster.

There are 1.5m people living within that distance.

A large amount of them are not potential Leinster fans for various reasons.

Which is why it's a red herring.

Calling it a potential market size also means that there is a potential that many will not support Leinster, for a whole host of reasons, like with any market, in any business.
Btw 1.5 is a conservative number when looking at a potential market, as the whole of the province should be considered a potential market, which massively increases this number.

If you took the average league attendance of 15k home fans at a game, Leinster are only attracting 1% of people living here in the province that live within 1 hour of the stadium.
Or 0.6% of the entire population of the province.

[wixfjord]

Look you can keep quoting that number, but as I’ve outlined above it’s pretty meaningless.

The wider point is apt, but that specific maths is so absent of any context as to make it worthless.

[munster#1]

Look you can keep quoting that number, but as I’ve outlined above it’s pretty meaningless.

The wider point is apt, but that specific maths is so absent of any context as to make it worthless.

I am fairly sure that from a mathematical point of view those numbers are not accurate, and it is a pure guesstimates. but I would be surprised if it is not less than the number that the Leinster marketing people would look at as their target audience.

They would have started with the entire population of the province, and worked from there.
Using a figure of an within an hour is very restrictive, so I doubt that they didn’t cast the net further than that.
A figure of 1.5 allows for over a million people within the province who would never buy a ticket, or attend a match.
Or put simply, close to the entire population of Munster.

All of this does not change the fact which started this discussion.
If a Leinster fan is to slag any of the 3 provinces, or any team, they must first look at their own team, which I know have agreed with, so not having a go at you.

[Dexter]

Look you can keep quoting that number, but as I’ve outlined above it’s pretty meaningless.

The wider point is apt, but that specific maths is so absent of any context as to make it worthless.

Once again, exactly. No matter how many times you repeat the same thing, it's still nonsense in the absence of context.
If that were really the case then Saracens would playing every week in a packed out 100k stadium!