Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[scentofgunpowder]

The hysteria on here is just four or five bored people posting. Its not a reflection of the actual real life response.

I think that is a common theme and a good point though, that we only have a certain number of slots for sub academy, academy, and development in Leinster and it would make sense for players who did not make or take up their academy spots for whatever reason to apply for Munster academy spots. Its a two way process then, if the player is good they'll make it, and if the Munster system is up to scratch they'll make it.

The big assumptions here are that the talent just isn't there in the south and a Leinster schools player will waltz into a Munster academy, and that the academy set up is comparable with Leinsters. On the former I have no real clue of the under age standard in Munster, and on the latter I know that UL have some of the best sports facilities in Europe so an academy based out of there would be a massive incentive for a young player to get cutting edge training and development.

Youre right with Ulster and Connacht, they have taken young Leinster players such has Dave Heffernan and Dan Shananhan off the top of my head who have definitely proved themselves to be Euro standard players... almost a win win situation for all involved

Did Heffernan have any involvement with the Leinster age grade system? He is from Ballina and played Connacht u19 and u20.

[Up Wexford]

I think he played for Blackrock in Dublin? But defintely Ballina and Mayo roots!

[scentofgunpowder]

I think he played for Blackrock in Dublin? But defintely Ballina and Mayo roots!

Yes he did but unless he played representative rugby for Leinster he was not a "young Leinster player."

[Sugary tae]

Interesting discussion. Just my two cents as a Munster supporter. Firstly I’ve no interest in a parochial interprovincial shitfight. Bores me to tears. They’re all Irish players and the more high quality guys the Irish system produces the better

I think If looking from outside over a 10 year stretch it’s not great. However I think every province region and club look poor against leinsters conveyor belt. Certainly ye are in an excellent position. Combination of an extremely good schools set up and an ultra competitive senior cup means so many Leinster prospects are exposed to the standards needed at a younger age. That’s pre Leinster properly getting their hands on players That said this remotely new and I think it’s taken ages to even come close to catching up. At Munster I think there’s a decent list of guys who I had high hopes for that never made it. Sherry foley nagle butler DCasey in particular we’re all guys who at u20s looked serious prospects.

The reasons it hasn’t happened over a long time is in my opinion multifactorial.

Firstly we’ve had no consistency at coach. All 2year deals. Mcgahan Penney and Erasmus all indidually were decent coaches But none stayed long enough. Penney’s hugely different game might suit us now but it wasn’t suited to the squad he had at the time. And even still we needed another2 years at least for the changes to play through. Erasmus was a great year but you’d have to feel emotion was carrying us a lot. All of these coaches were here trying desperately to achieve success. Bringing through a guy who’s going to be a stalwart fit 5/6 years but won’t be ready for 2 years is secondary to their ambitions. Penney famously had no time for stander. The minute Penney leaves foley had him as a first team started immediately and he had a huge impact. Jvg mightn’t be the next graham Henry but leave him in situ. By and large he’s done well culling the squad and has done well on recruitment. Surrounding him with excellent coaches is the way to go.

Secondly I think we’ve been playing catch up for years. And there’s been a lot of things that just haven’t worked out. Look back at the Ireland u20s or u18s u19s over the decade. It’s only the last 2/3 years that you see a decent number of Munster players. And before that a lot of bit part players. Whatever issues there have been in the past are starting to be addressed now.
Thirdly I think we’ve gone from all club players to players now coming from 4 schools. Pres Christians Bandon and Rockwell. There’s still a huge underage interest in rugby in limerick. Perhaps the right athletes haven’t come along but really they need to address why that well has run dry. I don’t believe the “it’s all hurling now” excuse. Limerick hasn’t been producing numbers for years. Goggin and Nash in the system as TVs only young lads makes zero sense. All of the hurling senior hurling team are pretty much all from hurling backgrounds. Sons nephews of inter county and local good club players. None by my reckoning from backgrounds that would historically have been rugby. Not that I’ve any issue with guys playing either sport but I detest the limerick is just hurling now excuse. I think this is something that needs urgent remedy.



I think we are in a far better place in terms of player development than at any time in the last 10 years. I think there’s a decent amount of young lads about to come through into first team reckoning. I’d have high hopes that Casey,Coombes, daly, O’Sullivan Hodnett and Wycherley will Be a solid core to build on with a good few real prospects coming through the academy. I look at our current academy listing and for the first time in years I feel nearly all of them are good enough to make it to pro24 level at the very least.
Finally I think we’ve tended not to know who’s going to make it or not. We’ve split playing time between 3 guys rather thaN backing 2 and cutting the third. This is a disaster. All academy players need to have their toes held to the fire. If they’re not performing at training and lower games then they need to be cut. Keeping guys too long stagnates the squad and ultimately rewards mediocrity

Of course we’ve had two many niq players and ina lot of cases didn’t have a mapped out succession plan. Irfu will never let Munster without a reasonable team. It makes zero financial sense.

A big year ahead. I’m certainly hoping for progress.

[The Doc]

But, could you imagine the hysteria on here if Munster were to announce that they were taking in 3 or 4 Leinster born players into their academy.
You my friend are very much in the minority who are not xenophobic when it comes to Munster rugby.

I don't know about that. Maybe it's just me but I think there is more irritation here when young guys who have been brought through and are getting game time are persuaded to move to sit on a bench elsewhere.

Everyone knows the academy only takes in a handful each year. And very often the balance of positions in the academy is a significant factor in that decision. Everyone also knows there are maybe 10 schools in Leinster running full time professional rugby programs. That means there is a lot of relent potentially there. I don't think anyone here would begrudge another province backing their academy and tapping into that potential (and benefitting from the Leinster input into the schools programs). The ire is when it feels like other provinces are not backing their academies and tapping ours.

It's not really a Munster thing. For example, some of the crowd on newstalk go on about having a draft system. What they mean is having a draft on the Leinster academy. There is nothing at the moment stopping drafting of kids leaving school.

There might be rumblings in Limerick if the academy spots were all given to Leinster school kids though [WINKING FACE]



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[wixfjord]

I think we are in a far better place in terms of player development than at any time in the last 10 years. I think there’s a decent amount of young lads about to come through into first team reckoning. I’d have high hopes that Casey,Coombes, daly, O’Sullivan Hodnett and Wycherley will Be a solid core to build on with a good few real prospects coming through the academy. I look at our current academy listing and for the first time in years I feel nearly all of them are good enough to make it to pro24 level at the very least.

Good point there. I think what's being missed in a lot of this 'Munster only took in 3 players' nonsense is that the current academy crop down there looks full of talent and many of them were key cornerstones of Irish u20 teams.

That hasn't always meant success before (JJ...) but it's a good sign. The likes of Ahern, Crowley, Hodnett and Wycherly the younger look like super talents.

[ormond lad]

Interesting discussion. Just my two cents as a Munster supporter. Firstly I’ve no interest in a parochial interprovincial shitfight. Bores me to tears. They’re all Irish players and the more high quality guys the Irish system produces the better

I think If looking from outside over a 10 year stretch it’s not great. However I think every province region and club look poor against leinsters conveyor belt. Certainly ye are in an excellent position. Combination of an extremely good schools set up and an ultra competitive senior cup means so many Leinster prospects are exposed to the standards needed at a younger age. That’s pre Leinster properly getting their hands on players That said this remotely new and I think it’s taken ages to even come close to catching up. At Munster I think there’s a decent list of guys who I had high hopes for that never made it. Sherry foley nagle butler DCasey in particular we’re all guys who at u20s looked serious prospects.

The reasons it hasn’t happened over a long time is in my opinion multifactorial.

Firstly we’ve had no consistency at coach. All 2year deals. Mcgahan Penney and Erasmus all indidually were decent coaches But none stayed long enough. Penney’s hugely different game might suit us now but it wasn’t suited to the squad he had at the time. And even still we needed another2 years at least for the changes to play through. Erasmus was a great year but you’d have to feel emotion was carrying us a lot. All of these coaches were here trying desperately to achieve success. Bringing through a guy who’s going to be a stalwart fit 5/6 years but won’t be ready for 2 years is secondary to their ambitions. Penney famously had no time for stander. The minute Penney leaves foley had him as a first team started immediately and he had a huge impact. Jvg mightn’t be the next graham Henry but leave him in situ. By and large he’s done well culling the squad and has done well on recruitment. Surrounding him with excellent coaches is the way to go.

Secondly I think we’ve been playing catch up for years. And there’s been a lot of things that just haven’t worked out. Look back at the Ireland u20s or u18s u19s over the decade. It’s only the last 2/3 years that you see a decent number of Munster players. And before that a lot of bit part players. Whatever issues there have been in the past are starting to be addressed now.
Thirdly I think we’ve gone from all club players to players now coming from 4 schools. Pres Christians Bandon and Rockwell. There’s still a huge underage interest in rugby in limerick. Perhaps the right athletes haven’t come along but really they need to address why that well has run dry. I don’t believe the “it’s all hurling now” excuse. Limerick hasn’t been producing numbers for years. Goggin and Nash in the system as TVs only young lads makes zero sense. All of the hurling senior hurling team are pretty much all from hurling backgrounds. Sons nephews of inter county and local good club players. None by my reckoning from backgrounds that would historically have been rugby. Not that I’ve any issue with guys playing either sport but I detest the limerick is just hurling now excuse. I think this is something that needs urgent remedy.

I think we are in a far better place in terms of player development than at any time in the last 10 years. I think there’s a decent amount of young lads about to come through into first team reckoning. I’d have high hopes that Casey,Coombes, daly, O’Sullivan Hodnett and Wycherley will Be a solid core to build on with a good few real prospects coming through the academy. I look at our current academy listing and for the first time in years I feel nearly all of them are good enough to make it to pro24 level at the very least.
Finally I think we’ve tended not to know who’s going to make it or not. We’ve split playing time between 3 guys rather thaN backing 2 and cutting the third. This is a disaster. All academy players need to have their toes held to the fire. If they’re not performing at training and lower games then they need to be cut. Keeping guys too long stagnates the squad and ultimately rewards mediocrity

Of course we’ve had two many niq players and ina lot of cases didn’t have a mapped out succession plan. Irfu will never let Munster without a reasonable team. It makes zero financial sense.

A big year ahead. I’m certainly hoping for progress.

I would disagree on a few things but good post.
Munster never were picking from all club players. In terms of the cities players came from the same few schools they do now it's just they were emerging older with no academy in place and they were then playing AIL before progressing to play with Munster and were recognised more for playing AIl than what they did as schoolboys
Limerick is hurling now is a factor as with limerick having had some success more kids at younger ages are favouring hurling and may not focus as much as they would have before on rugby.
Bandon Grammar or Rockwell are not really producing huge numbers to pro game. There is 2 maybe 3 from each in the squad.

[ormond lad]

Interesting discussion. Just my two cents as a Munster supporter. Firstly I’ve no interest in a parochial interprovincial shitfight. Bores me to tears. They’re all Irish players and the more high quality guys the Irish system produces the better

I think If looking from outside over a 10 year stretch it’s not great. However I think every province region and club look poor against leinsters conveyor belt. Certainly ye are in an excellent position. Combination of an extremely good schools set up and an ultra competitive senior cup means so many Leinster prospects are exposed to the standards needed at a younger age. That’s pre Leinster properly getting their hands on players That said this remotely new and I think it’s taken ages to even come close to catching up. At Munster I think there’s a decent list of guys who I had high hopes for that never made it. Sherry foley nagle butler DCasey in particular we’re all guys who at u20s looked serious prospects.

The reasons it hasn’t happened over a long time is in my opinion multifactorial.

Firstly we’ve had no consistency at coach. All 2year deals. Mcgahan Penney and Erasmus all indidually were decent coaches But none stayed long enough. Penney’s hugely different game might suit us now but it wasn’t suited to the squad he had at the time. And even still we needed another2 years at least for the changes to play through. Erasmus was a great year but you’d have to feel emotion was carrying us a lot. All of these coaches were here trying desperately to achieve success. Bringing through a guy who’s going to be a stalwart fit 5/6 years but won’t be ready for 2 years is secondary to their ambitions. Penney famously had no time for stander. The minute Penney leaves foley had him as a first team started immediately and he had a huge impact. Jvg mightn’t be the next graham Henry but leave him in situ. By and large he’s done well culling the squad and has done well on recruitment. Surrounding him with excellent coaches is the way to go.

Secondly I think we’ve been playing catch up for years. And there’s been a lot of things that just haven’t worked out. Look back at the Ireland u20s or u18s u19s over the decade. It’s only the last 2/3 years that you see a decent number of Munster players. And before that a lot of bit part players. Whatever issues there have been in the past are starting to be addressed now.
Thirdly I think we’ve gone from all club players to players now coming from 4 schools. Pres Christians Bandon and Rockwell. There’s still a huge underage interest in rugby in limerick. Perhaps the right athletes haven’t come along but really they need to address why that well has run dry. I don’t believe the “it’s all hurling now” excuse. Limerick hasn’t been producing numbers for years. Goggin and Nash in the system as TVs only young lads makes zero sense. All of the hurling senior hurling team are pretty much all from hurling backgrounds. Sons nephews of inter county and local good club players. None by my reckoning from backgrounds that would historically have been rugby. Not that I’ve any issue with guys playing either sport but I detest the limerick is just hurling now excuse. I think this is something that needs urgent remedy.

I think we are in a far better place in terms of player development than at any time in the last 10 years. I think there’s a decent amount of young lads about to come through into first team reckoning. I’d have high hopes that Casey,Coombes, daly, O’Sullivan Hodnett and Wycherley will Be a solid core to build on with a good few real prospects coming through the academy. I look at our current academy listing and for the first time in years I feel nearly all of them are good enough to make it to pro24 level at the very least.
Finally I think we’ve tended not to know who’s going to make it or not. We’ve split playing time between 3 guys rather thaN backing 2 and cutting the third. This is a disaster. All academy players need to have their toes held to the fire. If they’re not performing at training and lower games then they need to be cut. Keeping guys too long stagnates the squad and ultimately rewards mediocrity

Of course we’ve had two many niq players and ina lot of cases didn’t have a mapped out succession plan. Irfu will never let Munster without a reasonable team. It makes zero financial sense.

A big year ahead. I’m certainly hoping for progress.

I would disagree on a few things but good post.
Munster never were picking from all club players. In terms of the cities players came from the same few schools they do now it's just they were emerging older with no academy in place and they were then playing AIL before progressing to play with Munster and were recognised more for playing AIl than what they did as schoolboys
Limerick is hurling now is a factor as with limerick having had some success more kids at younger ages are favouring hurling and may not focus as much as they would have before on rugby.
Bandon Grammar or Rockwell are not really producing huge numbers to pro game. There is 2 maybe 3 from each in the squad.

[Up Wexford]

@Sugary tae great stuff, appreciate the input! Spot on with the coaching, and best of luck with the year ahead! (but not too much )

[Sugary tae]

No you’re 100% correct it’s not guaranteed but it’s a far better starting point. There needs to be a pathway for these guys. They need to get guaranteed minutes in the lower level “pro14 and friends” games. But it needs to be with enough seasoned pros who’re putting 100% commitment in. The like of billy Holland, fardy, bent. Returning internationals treat these games as a warm up and actually have little to offer in my opinion in those games.

I’m less bothered with the fact that it’s only 3 guys this year. All 3 in my opinion have serious potential. Kendellan looks a future international (although he might be suited better to 7 ) and Buckley is a serious athlete. Rumours that Daniel okeke a no 8 and Alan flannery a 12 (jakes brother) might follow.

[ronk]

Academies are built on a virtuous cycle. Schoolboys in Leinster know that they’ll get looked after if they make it to the academy. They won’t all make it but they will probably get a shot. Can a kid in a Munster school look at Munster’s squad and say the same thing. Maybe they are less likely to believe in (and work for) a future in the professional game for themselves.

In this way success breeds success and it’s not that one is inherently doing something better than the other. Fixing it is not an overnight job and after a while fixing it might not even be possible.

[ormond lad]

Academies are built on a virtuous cycle. Schoolboys in Leinster know that they’ll get looked after if they make it to the academy. They won’t all make it but they will probably get a shot. Can a kid in a Munster school look at Munster’s squad and say the same thing. Maybe they are less likely to believe in (and work for) a future in the professional game for themselves.

In this way success breeds success and it’s not that one is inherently doing something better than the other. Fixing it is not an overnight job and after a while fixing it might not even be possible.

if by fixing it tou mean get close to what leinster schools are doing then it's not possible. Schoolboys in leinster especially the biggest and strongest schools are training like pros from age of 15 and getting coached by some very high level coaches.
Munster cant just look to their schools as there isnt enough of the schools and they dont have the resources either. Munater has in general the right base to help develop more players to both the adult game and the pro game with changes theyve made to age grade rugby in the past decade bar under 20 which is next level that needs an overhaul and the changes should in time see more pros emerge(tbf it's already showing to a degree with numbers playing pro who come from clubs in county waterford)

[mildlyinterested]

Academies are built on a virtuous cycle. Schoolboys in Leinster know that they’ll get looked after if they make it to the academy. They won’t all make it but they will probably get a shot. Can a kid in a Munster school look at Munster’s squad and say the same thing. Maybe they are less likely to believe in (and work for) a future in the professional game for themselves.

In this way success breeds success and it’s not that one is inherently doing something better than the other. Fixing it is not an overnight job and after a while fixing it might not even be possible.

if by fixing it tou mean get close to what leinster schools are doing then it's not possible. Schoolboys in leinster especially the biggest and strongest schools are training like pros from age of 15 and getting coached by some very high level coaches.
Munster cant just look to their schools as there isnt enough of the schools and they dont have the resources either. Munater has in general the right base to help develop more players to both the adult game and the pro game with changes theyve made to age grade rugby in the past decade bar under 20 which is next level that needs an overhaul and the changes should in time see more pros emerge(tbf it's already showing to a degree with numbers playing pro who come from clubs in county waterford)

What are CBC/PBC/Bandon/Rockwell etc. doing? Twiddling their thumbs?

[Sugary tae]

If it’s a prerequisite of a young Munster academy member to attend a few paying school (even with scholarships) this rules out so many. Limerick is geographically small. There’s likely to be a lot of possible guys attending other schools who could benefit from the High level of Coaching and might turn out to be decent. Could an after schools preacademy coaching and/or conditioning be an option for guys 15-17 yrs old. Especially considering there is a ready made high performance unit in UL. Put simply it’s a hell of a lot cheaper to produce a player than to have to sign one.

No one wants to have to look through leinsters academy to plug holes.

[wixfjord]

I see Diarmuid Barron has been promoted to senior squad. Munster slightly top heavy with hookers now, is he good enough to make it? Seems quite highly rated.

Quite a few young hookers coming through now with Kelleher/Sheahan, McBurney/Stewart, Tierney-Martin in Connacht too.

[Sugary tae]

Hard to know re Barron. He’s certainly seems to have jumped ahead of Clarke in the pecking order. Big strong lad. Scannell has all the physical attributes to make a decent hooker. I have hopes he’ll still progress. Whether it was a blow to confidence or what he had a poor season last year. Up to then I would have said he’d peak at 32. O Byrne has just had a super season while Marshall has barely been seen for 2years. There’s certainly space for another Hooker. Whether that’s Barron or not I’m not sure. I think long term Scott Buckley could be very good

[wixfjord]

KOB is a really nice player. Does he have the ability to bring it up a level to Euro/test at this stage of his career?

[mildlyinterested]

Hard to know re Barron. He’s certainly seems to have jumped ahead of Clarke in the pecking order. Big strong lad. Scannell has all the physical attributes to make a decent hooker. I have hopes he’ll still progress. Whether it was a blow to confidence or what he had a poor season last year. Up to then I would have said he’d peak at 32. O Byrne has just had a super season while Marshall has barely been seen for 2years. There’s certainly space for another Hooker. Whether that’s Barron or not I’m not sure. I think long term Scott Buckley could be very good

Clarke was someone Munster took from the leinster sub-academy, which actually resulted in Leinster looking at Dan Sheehan again and offering him an academy contract after a trial during preseason.

[Dave Cahill]

Jerry Flannery will be teaching London toffs how to jump up and down next season (hopefully without punching themselves in the mouth in the process)

[ronk]

Academies are built on a virtuous cycle. Schoolboys in Leinster know that they’ll get looked after if they make it to the academy. They won’t all make it but they will probably get a shot. Can a kid in a Munster school look at Munster’s squad and say the same thing. Maybe they are less likely to believe in (and work for) a future in the professional game for themselves.

In this way success breeds success and it’s not that one is inherently doing something better than the other. Fixing it is not an overnight job and after a while fixing it might not even be possible.

if by fixing it tou mean get close to what leinster schools are doing then it's not possible. Schoolboys in leinster especially the biggest and strongest schools are training like pros from age of 15 and getting coached by some very high level coaches.
Munster cant just look to their schools as there isnt enough of the schools and they dont have the resources either. Munater has in general the right base to help develop more players to both the adult game and the pro game with changes theyve made to age grade rugby in the past decade bar under 20 which is next level that needs an overhaul and the changes should in time see more pros emerge(tbf it's already showing to a degree with numbers playing pro who come from clubs in county waterford)

What are CBC/PBC/Bandon/Rockwell etc. doing? Twiddling their thumbs?

Fixing = improvement

I’m saying that if the schools and underage development programs didn’t do anything differently (consciously) but the academy players start consistently breaking fully in the Munster 1st team, then standards would improve in the schools.