Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[ronk]

Definite improvements alright. The squad looks much stronger.

Pressure is on JVG now to deliver something.

Most teams in Europe will sign some big names over the next few months, but only one team can win the European Cup.
Munster have all of the ingredients to win a European Cup, but so will a number of other clubs.

I hope that the rugby public do not turn into soccer fans and try run him Van Grann out if Munster do not have instant success.

Van Graan has already coached more Munster games than Gaffney, Penney, Foley and Erasmus.

[OTT]

I hope that the rugby public do not turn into soccer fans and try run him Van Grann out if Munster do not have instant success.

Ah come on, welcome to 2020, It is 12 years since you were the best fans in the world by the grace of God. Ask Duncan Williams and Ian Keatley what you should expect these days, no need for the pop at football fans.

On saying that instant success does not even guarantee you any saving grace with some people, you should check out some of the bile a certain poster wrote about Joe Schmidt on here in his early days as Ireland coach.

Of course though Van Graan will ultimately be responsible for the success of Munster or for their failings, so he will get the plaudits or criticisms that come with that. Munster are one of the biggest teams in Europe and there is an expectation now that they win stuff which they have not been doing lately, when that expectation turns to more of a hope you are on a downward spiral imo. Anyway you look well set up going forward with the excellent signings you have made so he has some very good tools to work with now.

[wixfjord]

Definite improvements alright. The squad looks much stronger.

Pressure is on JVG now to deliver something.

Most teams in Europe will sign some big names over the next few months, but only one team can win the European Cup.
Munster have all of the ingredients to win a European Cup, but so will a number of other clubs.

I hope that the rugby public do not turn into soccer fans and try run him Van Grann out if Munster do not have instant success.

This is pro sport. If JVG goes another season trophyless with the investment that's been made then the pressure will absolutely be on.

Whatever about the EC, Munster haven't won a league in yonks either.

JVG is contracted to June 2022. If he doesn't deliver a trophy in the next two seasons I can't see how he could be renewed.

[LeinsterLeader]

Definite improvements alright. The squad looks much stronger.

Pressure is on JVG now to deliver something.

Most teams in Europe will sign some big names over the next few months, but only one team can win the European Cup.
Munster have all of the ingredients to win a European Cup, but so will a number of other clubs.

I hope that the rugby public do not turn into soccer fans and try run him Van Grann out if Munster do not have instant success.

This is pro sport. If JVG goes another season trophyless with the investment that's been made then the pressure will absolutely be on.

Whatever about the EC, Munster haven't won a league in yonks either.

JVG is contracted to June 2022. If he doesn't deliver a trophy in the next two seasons I can't see how he could be renewed.

More then that I'd say........ I'd think without a trophy by the end of next season he'll be gonzo!

I still think he'd sell his granny for another experienced 10 though. If anything happens to either of his starting 10's (and lets face it.......) I'd say he'll have a few sleepless nights.

[wixfjord]

Will be interesting to see who they use as bench 10 cover for the upcoming games. Assume JJ will start so will it be Scannell or Healy?

[munster#1]

For me Munster should be looking a bit longer term than one season before the axe JVG.

He has had a very turbulent rein to date, he came in mid season, had a big back room shake up, and a RWC to deal with.

I suspect that Munster will see improvements, and will hopefully be pushing for home advantage in both comps, but to automatically expect silverware is a bit narrow minded.

[munster#1]

Will be interesting to see who they use as bench 10 cover for the upcoming games. Assume JJ will start so will it be Scannell or Healy?

I suspect, given that there are no small games between now and seasons end, that we will see JJ start and Scannell on the bench, especially as Scannell offers flexibility.
Munster will probably adopt the 6/2 split on the bench against Leinster.

[wixfjord]

For me Munster should be looking a bit longer term than one season before the axe JVG.

Well by the end of next season he will have 3.5 seasons.
By the end of his contract he will have had 4.5.

I'm not sure where this narrative of JVG not being given time has come from. Like did his coaching tenure reset at the start of this season or something?
His hands are all over this Munster squad, he has been backed to the hilt by the IRFU, he has lots of young talent to work with and a strong coaching set-up of his own making.

This year hasn't gone well so far so the pressure is on now to deliver.

I suspect that Munster will see improvements, and will hopefully be pushing for home advantage in both comps, but to automatically expect silverware is a bit narrow minded.

I don't think it is. Munster is now one of the best stocked 23s in Europe and have invested heavily in a coaching ticket. They've been regular semi finalists for the last few years. Silverware should be expected and if JVG doesn't deliver then there will be questions to answer. It's unrealistic to say otherwise.

In fact, he's setting that expectation himself in his interview today:

“Everybody knows the ambition and dreams that we have as a club and I think it’s important to note that if you look at the four individuals, they all come from championship-winning teams and that’s something that we want to become.”

[munster#1]

For me Munster should be looking a bit longer term than one season before the axe JVG.

Well by the end of next season he will have 3.5 seasons.
By the end of his contract he will have had 4.5.

I'm not sure where this narrative of JVG not being given time has come from. Like did his coaching tenure reset at the start of this season or something?
His hands are all over this Munster squad, he has been backed to the hilt by the IRFU, he has lots of young talent to work with and a strong coaching set-up of his own making.

This year hasn't gone well so far so the pressure is on now to deliver.

I suspect that Munster will see improvements, and will hopefully be pushing for home advantage in both comps, but to automatically expect silverware is a bit narrow minded.

I don't think it is. Munster is now one of the best stocked 23s in Europe and have invested heavily in a coaching ticket. They've been regular semi finalists for the last few years. Silverware should be expected and if JVG doesn't deliver then there will be questions to answer. It's unrealistic to say otherwise.

In fact, he's setting that expectation himself in his interview today:

“Everybody knows the ambition and dreams that we have as a club and I think it’s important to note that if you look at the four individuals, they all come from championship-winning teams and that’s something that we want to become.”

Nothing adds to a discussion like emojis.

My point is that next season will be JVG first season with a preseason with the squad and coaching ticket that he built.
Even if the world miraculously returns what we would perceive as normal, it is still very a bit daft to say win silverware or go.

In the league they are up against Leinster who have a team likely to contain more first team internationals than any team in the world.
In Europe they will be up against Leinster and many more top quality teams.

I appreciate the compliments that are thrown Munster’s way by yourself and a few of the other Leinster fans on here, and I hope you are right, and Munster are the force that you expect them to be.
But thinking logically, the goal has to be silverware, but I would be happy to see improvements, home advantage in knockout stages, and a couple of finals.

Put all this in to context, and I hope that the usual suspects do not go off on one, but Leinster with a squad full of internationals, a fairly big wage bill, the best academy in the whole world, and a top coaching ticket have a return of only 1 HC in the last 7 years, and if they are unsuccessful this year, 1 in 8.

[The Doc]

and a top coaching ticket have a return of only 1 HC in the last 7 years...

Not true for 3 of those 7

[johng]

Which other year are you writing off besides Matty? Leo's first?

In those 7 seasons, as well as a HC we won 4 leagues and an Amlin and lost 2 finals. It wasn't the worst slump in the world.

[wixfjord]

Nothing adds to a discussion like emojis.

My point is that next season will be JVG first season with a preseason with the squad and coaching ticket that he built.
Even if the world miraculously returns what we would perceive as normal, it is still very a bit daft to say win silverware or go.

In the league they are up against Leinster who have a team likely to contain more first team internationals than any team in the world.
In Europe they will be up against Leinster and many more top quality teams.

I appreciate the compliments that are thrown Munster’s way by yourself and a few of the other Leinster fans on here, and I hope you are right, and Munster are the force that you expect them to be.
But thinking logically, the goal has to be silverware, but I would be happy to see improvements, home advantage in knockout stages, and a couple of finals.

Put all this in to context, and I hope that the usual suspects do not go off on one, but Leinster with a squad full of internationals, a fairly big wage bill, the best academy in the whole world, and a top coaching ticket have a return of only 1 HC in the last 7 years, and if they are unsuccessful this year, 1 in 8.

If JVG doesn't win anything by the end of his tenure, then he will be gone.

It's as simple as that.

You seem to keep going back to the HEC for some reason and ignoring the league.
Leinster clearly under-performed in the MOC era which is why he was given the chop. That only proves the point.

Since then we've had a barren season of re-building under Leo (who was under pressure because of it even though we got to a final) and then seasons of SF, winners and finalists in Europe, along with finalists, winners and winners in the league.

So three trophies in four seasons, with potentially 4/5 trophies in five seasons if the next few months go to plan.

If JVG doesn't win anything by the end of his tenure, he'll have 0 trophies in 4.5 years.
I'm not saying he needs to win Europe next year, which seems to be what you're talking about.
But clearly he now has 2.5 seasons to deliver a trophy or else it's highly unlikely he'll be kept on.

It's also very distortive to talk about how 'next season' is his 'first season with a preseason with the squad and coaching ticket that he built'. He has been in the role for quite a while now. His tenure doesn't just re-set because he has gotten new coaches and players in.

thinking logically, the goal has to be silverware

Yep, you've got it in one.

[munster#1]

Nothing adds to a discussion like emojis.

My point is that next season will be JVG first season with a preseason with the squad and coaching ticket that he built.
Even if the world miraculously returns what we would perceive as normal, it is still very a bit daft to say win silverware or go.

In the league they are up against Leinster who have a team likely to contain more first team internationals than any team in the world.
In Europe they will be up against Leinster and many more top quality teams.

I appreciate the compliments that are thrown Munster’s way by yourself and a few of the other Leinster fans on here, and I hope you are right, and Munster are the force that you expect them to be.
But thinking logically, the goal has to be silverware, but I would be happy to see improvements, home advantage in knockout stages, and a couple of finals.

Put all this in to context, and I hope that the usual suspects do not go off on one, but Leinster with a squad full of internationals, a fairly big wage bill, the best academy in the whole world, and a top coaching ticket have a return of only 1 HC in the last 7 years, and if they are unsuccessful this year, 1 in 8.

If JVG doesn't win anything by the end of his tenure, then he will be gone.

It's as simple as that.

You seem to keep going back to the HEC for some reason and ignoring the league.
Leinster clearly under-performed in the MOC era which is why he was given the chop. That only proves the point.

Since then we've had a barren season of re-building under Leo (who was under pressure because of it even though we got to a final) and then seasons of SF, winners and finalists in Europe, along with finalists, winners and winners in the league.

So three trophies in four seasons, with potentially 4/5 trophies in five seasons if the next few months go to plan.

If JVG doesn't win anything by the end of his tenure, he'll have 0 trophies in 4.5 years.
I'm not saying he needs to win Europe next year, which seems to be what you're talking about.
But clearly he now has 2.5 seasons to deliver a trophy or else it's highly unlikely he'll be kept on.

It's also very distortive to talk about how 'next season' is his 'first season with a preseason with the squad and coaching ticket that he built'. He has been in the role for quite a while now. His tenure doesn't just re-set because he has gotten new coaches and players in.

thinking logically, the goal has to be silverware

Yep, you've got it in one.

The goal for most teams would be to win silverware, but as stated already, only 1 team can win a cup each year.
If you were to sack each coach who does not win silverware then there would be a continuous change at the vast majority of clubs.

I personally have no massive feelings about JVG as a coach, I don’t love him or hate him, but I would like to see Munster having a set coaching team for a prolonged period of time.
The constant changing has to have been a big contributor to the lack of silverware over the last few years.

With regards to the league, although I think it’s a nice thing to win, the value of winning it is nothing compared to the HC.

[wixfjord]

The goal for most teams would be to win silverware, but as stated already, only 1 team can win a cup each year.
If you were to sack each coach who does not win silverware then there would be a continuous change at the vast majority of clubs.

I personally have no massive feelings about JVG as a coach, I don’t love him or hate him, but I would like to see Munster having a set coaching team for a prolonged period of time.
The constant changing has to have been a big contributor to the lack of silverware over the last few years.

Right, and I'm not advocating 'sacking each coach who does not win silverware'. You like a big old strawman don't you?!

I'm saying a coach of Munster who has been heavily backed and doesn't win anything in 4.5 years won't be renewed.

With regards to the league, although I think it’s a nice thing to win, the value of winning it is nothing compared to the HC.

And that's part of Munster's problem summed up there.

A fan of a team that has won nothing in a decade can't be picky about what trophies they prioritise.

[OTT]

Whatever about them in their glory days, Munster are clearly going after leagues now. They go after them so much they over play their star players in matches where they should be using their academy. Munster#1 might not care about leagues (although that conflicts with his earlier opinion that Munster could not blood a new 10 on the bench in the upcoming games because every game when they come back is a must win?) but JVG has been busting a gut to win the league so much it has hurt their player development.

[munster#1]

Which other year are you writing off besides Matty? Leo's first?

In those 7 seasons, as well as a HC we won 4 leagues and an Amlin and lost 2 finals. It wasn't the worst slump in the world.

I think it just highlights how difficult it is to win a HC.
On paper Leinster should have at least 2 more wins under their belt, but sport isn’t won on paper.

For Munster to win a league they will most likely have to beat Leinster in a knockout game, which is possible, but even with the current crop of players and coaches, it is no easy task.

I as a supporter want Munster to win everything, but it is important to be a realist.
I will be happy to see Munster back in finals again, and to make TP a fortress again, where every visiting team believes that they will lose before the game even starts.

[johng]

On paper Leinster should have at least 2 more wins under their belt, but sport isn’t won on paper.

Based on what? Something you pulled out of the fork of your trousers? or licked your fingers and put them in the air? I don't see how anyone could claim that we "should" have any more or less HCs than we have. (I am presuming the 2 we "should" have are the Sarries loss and the time we missed the drop goal in extra time in the semi in Marsailles in 2015)

Many Munster fans seem to have little time for the league. I'm happy with every trophy we got (even the Amlin was a bit of crack with 3 games in the RDS) Which includes 2 sets of back to back wins during the period you mentioned and being in 8 of the 10 finals since they started in 2010

[johng]

Messed up edit of previous post

[The Doc]

Which other year are you writing off besides Matty? Leo's first?

In those 7 seasons, as well as a HC we won 4 leagues and an Amlin and lost 2 finals. It wasn't the worst slump in the world.

Don't you go correcting me with facts again - it's annoying. I was just going by 15/16 being first season and we're still in 19/20. But of course I counted that as 4 rather than 5 seasons

[johng]

I think M1 was going from 12/13 to 18/19 as his 7 seasons. (cause he mentioned 19/20 as being 8 ) So last year of Joe. 2 years of Matt and 4 years of Leo.