Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[munster#1]

On paper Leinster should have at least 2 more wins under their belt, but sport isn’t won on paper.

Based on what? Something you pulled out of the fork of your trousers? or licked your fingers and put them in the air? I don't see how anyone could claim that we "should" have any more or less HCs than we have. (I am presuming the 2 we "should" have are the Sarries loss and the time we missed the drop goal in extra time in the semi in Marsailles in 2015)

Many Munster fans seem to have little time for the league. I'm happy with every trophy we got (even the Amlin was a bit of crack with 3 games in the RDS) Which includes 2 sets of back to back wins during the period you mentioned and being in 8 of the 10 finals since they started in 2010

I was basing it on the quality of players Leinster had at their disposal, from 1 to 23 and even a few outside of that, Leinster had highly talented and experienced internationals.
Most of the most successful Irish squad of all time were available to the Leinster coaches.

On paper Leinster had and still have the best squad in Europe. Not too many clubs have ever had a squad with a similar make up, with so many current internationals in their team. Not only current internationals, but internationals from a team that was regularly considered the best team in the northern hemisphere.

[munster#1]

The goal for most teams would be to win silverware, but as stated already, only 1 team can win a cup each year.
If you were to sack each coach who does not win silverware then there would be a continuous change at the vast majority of clubs.

I personally have no massive feelings about JVG as a coach, I don’t love him or hate him, but I would like to see Munster having a set coaching team for a prolonged period of time.
The constant changing has to have been a big contributor to the lack of silverware over the last few years.

Right, and I'm not advocating 'sacking each coach who does not win silverware'. You like a big old strawman don't you?!

I'm saying a coach of Munster who has been heavily backed and doesn't win anything in 4.5 years won't be renewed.

With regards to the league, although I think it’s a nice thing to win, the value of winning it is nothing compared to the HC.

And that's part of Munster's problem summed up there.

A fan of a team that has won nothing in a decade can't be picky about what trophies they prioritise.

We’ll just have to wait and see, but I definitely don’t think it would be massively beneficial for Munster to sack JVG at the end of next season if they don’t win silverware.

If Munster don’t improve or even start to slide, then yes, but I wouldn’t be agreeing with sacking any coach just because they don’t win silverware.
I am willing to give JVG some slack as he is obviously in the middle of a big rebuilding process. He has cleared a lot of players from his squad over the last 2 years, has hired the coaches that he wants, and brought in and promoted the players that he wants.

Look, if Munster win the league this season it would be good, but not something to be overjoyed about.
It is a Micky mouse league, where the stronger teams regularly play very few front line players and still manage to win, often with a bonus point.

Even in the big derbies we rarely see teams that even resemble the teams put out for European games

[wixfjord]

We’ll just have to wait and see, but I definitely don’t think it would be massively beneficial for Munster to sack JVG at the end of next season if they don’t win silverware.

Ok, but again that's not what I said.

[ronk]

I think M1 was going from 12/13 to 18/19 as his 7 seasons. (cause he mentioned 19/20 as being 8 ) So last year of Joe. 2 years of Matt and 4 years of Leo.

MOC feels like more than 2 seasons. He was sacked for something that van Graan did this year. In hindsight, it was the right decision not to give him more time and it wasn’t just the results or style of play. It was the weak development.

This is something I’ve seen with van Graan: the whole starting team is signings and a few older locals who broke through well before he came. If he was going to trust youth it would have happened by now.

[dropkick]

I think M1 was going from 12/13 to 18/19 as his 7 seasons. (cause he mentioned 19/20 as being 8 ) So last year of Joe. 2 years of Matt and 4 years of Leo.

MOC feels like more than 2 seasons. He was sacked for something that van Graan did this year. In hindsight, it was the right decision not to give him more time and it wasn’t just the results or style of play. It was the weak development.

This is something I’ve seen with van Graan: the whole starting team is signings and a few older locals who broke through well before he came. If he was going to trust youth it would have happened by now.

I agree. JVG constantly talks about the talent in the academy etc but he's very reluctant to play young players. I dont think this leopard will change his spots either. He promoted McHenry but it seems he wanted to keep Arnold as well as de Allende coming.


He signed Gallagher despite the glut of back 3 players. Gallagher was very good against Munster in thomond but realistically he was Saracens 4th or 5th choice fullback. Either you sign players who are going to make an impact or promote from within.


I hope I'm wrong and maybe Larkham will have more of an influence now that he's familiar with the wider squad.

[munster#1]

I think M1 was going from 12/13 to 18/19 as his 7 seasons. (cause he mentioned 19/20 as being 8 ) So last year of Joe. 2 years of Matt and 4 years of Leo.

MOC feels like more than 2 seasons. He was sacked for something that van Graan did this year. In hindsight, it was the right decision not to give him more time and it wasn’t just the results or style of play. It was the weak development.

This is something I’ve seen with van Graan: the whole starting team is signings and a few older locals who broke through well before he came. If he was going to trust youth it would have happened by now.

I agree. JVG constantly talks about the talent in the academy etc but he's very reluctant to play young players. I dont think this leopard will change his spots either. He promoted McHenry but it seems he wanted to keep Arnold as well as de Allende coming.


He signed Gallagher despite the glut of back 3 players. Gallagher was very good against Munster in thomond but realistically he was Saracens 4th or 5th choice fullback. Either you sign players who are going to make an impact or promote from within.


I hope I'm wrong and maybe Larkham will have more of an influence now that he's familiar with the wider squad.

In fairness to JVG, he may not be at Leinster’s level of youth development, but he is probably on par or better than most other clubs in the league.

55 players were capped last season, which was JVG first full season, and this season we got to see players like Knox, Casey, Healy, Coombes, Hodnett.
To compare Knox to Salanoa, Knox has played 8 senior games to Salanoa’s 3.

JVG can definitely do better, and a massive step forward has to be having the Academy train with the senior squad.
JVG said himself that it is great to have Ahern jumping against the likes of RG and Holland in training, likewise for the likes of Healy and Crowley getting to train with Carberry and JJ.

I think the financial burden of not getting a home semi in the league must be a major factor for JVG, hopefully next season Munster can build a bit of a cushion at the start of the season, which will allow them to give more minutes to blooding players.

[wixfjord]

To compare Knox to Salanoa, Knox has played 8 senior games to Salanoa’s 3.

Last season Knox was Munster's third choice TH.

Salanoa was Leinster's 4th/5th.

[Oldschoolsocks]

you can't deny him the odd cherry pick

[ronk]

Salanoa is converting from American Football and tight heads often break through late, even compared to looseheads.

He was always a long burner. Headhunting a highly touted SA prop out of an advanced schools program is different.

[munster#1]

To compare Knox to Salanoa, Knox has played 8 senior games to Salanoa’s 3.

Last season Knox was Munster's third choice TH.

Salanoa was Leinster's 4th/5th.

Well really he wasn’t. He was an academy prop with 4 full time professional senior TH props ahead of him.

Salanoa wasn’t really the point, but it does seem to be what people are focusing on.

The point is that in JVG first full season he used 55 players. That is a remarkable number (I’m not sure how the other provinces stack up?)
This season he has looked like he was continuing this trend prior to the season being interrupted.

Leinster have been the outliers with regards to giving youth minutes, but not the norm. What JVG has done is fairly similar to most coaches in the league, if not better.

If you compare everything to an outlier, then it would appear that all bar one is a failure.

This response is not entirely directed at you, so please don’t take offence.

[Logorrhea]

I don't think Van Grann has done a particularly bad job (its difficult to win stuff when you ave to get past us at the moment. The bar is really high), I just haven't seen any improvement from within Munster that I could attribute to him. Lancaster and McFarland have all made their teams better, quickly. I couldn't really see him being offered any top job in Europe on the back of his Munster stint.

[ronk]

How many of Munster's first choice XV or even XXIII are not signings and under 30?

Out of that number how many are there because they got ahead of signings due to injury or in spite of planning, e.g. Scannell ahead of Marshall is injury; if Casey is ahead of McCarthy it's a plan gone wrong; Hanrahan would be behind Bleyendaal except for injuries. JOD needs a few selections to go his way, like Holland and TOD not making the cut, but even then he was going to be behind Botha.

Using 55 players doesn't mean you are developing players, it could mean you have a dirt tracker squad to keep the ultras happy in the non-derby Pro14.

[hugonaut]

How many of Munster's first choice XV or even XXIII are not signings and under 30?

Out of that number how many are there because they got ahead of signings due to injury or in spite of planning, e.g. Scannell ahead of Marshall is injury; if Casey is ahead of McCarthy it's a plan gone wrong; Hanrahan would be behind Bleyendaal except for injuries. JOD needs a few selections to go his way, like Holland and TOD not making the cut, but even then he was going to be behind Botha.

Using 55 players doesn't mean you are developing players, it could mean you have a dirt tracker squad to keep the ultras happy in the non-derby Pro14.

Munster had 48 players in their senior squad in 2018-19 [last season]. Playing 55 players means giving 7 academy players gametime. This is how that went:

2018-19 Munster Academy
1. Shane Daly [4+2, 330 mins]
2. Gavin Coombes [2+6, 241 mins]
3. Liam Coombes [1+0, 80 mins]
4. Sean O’Connor [0+2, 41 mins]
5. Diarmuid Barron [0+1, 4 mins]
6. Craig Casey [0+1, 4 mins]
7. Alex McHenry [0+1, 2 mins]

That gives 7 starts +13 substitute appearances for 702 mins [i.e. 7+13, 702 mins] over the 31 competitive games Munster played in 2018-19.

- 7 starts out of a possible 465 starts [31 games x 15 starting positions] = 1.5% of possible starts per season given to the entire academy corps of 21 players.
- 702 minutes out of a possible 37200 minutes [31 games x 15 players on the field x 80 mins] = 1.9% of total minutes given to the entire academy corps of 21 players.

[ronk]

Munster still mostly recruit tactically, instead of strategically. If there’s IQ (& previously project) talent available they try and swoop in. They don’t really need or want a plan; if you’re value they want you.

Gallagher was happy in Saracens, but they needed to offload people so he was easy to get. Did it matter that they had signed Haley a season before, or that Conway probably would like some fullback time, nope. Is there a huge gap in developing talent? No, there’s Daly and Coombs. Someone will win and the other will be cut if necessary.

Salanoa is looking at Connacht going from an academy to a development contract. Sure, take a punt. Archer is 33, if he works out you have a replacement. If he doesn’t, you can say you tried when you ask for a NIQ.

You have a chance to sign guys like Snyman and de Allende: bye bye Sammy Arnold.

Beirne wants to play for Ireland and will take less than Scarlets (!) have offered. Yes, please. Carbery is available but we have 4 out halves including 3 premium signings. Solve that later.

JOD is the most promising backrow in over 5 years, sign Botha.

Casey is the most promising scrum half in 10 years, extend Mathewson and milk him until his last day, and also pick up Nick McCarthy. All while trying out Cronin.

Farrell and Hart had gotten some good press in France and wanted to get caps, same same.

Leinster mostly don’t just pickup players for the sake of it. Boss and Reddan finish up together and McGraph is relatively unproven. Park was the perfect standard to be good enough to start but not so good that McGrath doesn’t play. They push each other on. Leo doesn’t sign anyone else (edit: NIQ).

Next year Triggs and McCarthy retire together, he signs Fardy. Fardy is versatile enough to cover 6 too where Ruddock is but there isn’t much young depth. Ross Molony gets more opportunities.

It’s easier to do that when you have so much talent coming through, but you’ll never develop much talent if there’s no room on the roster to give chances. Munster can fix everything else, but their development will always lag if they don’t change.

[blockhead]

I don't think Van Grann has done a particularly bad job (its difficult to win stuff when you ave to get past us at the moment. The bar is really high), I just haven't seen any improvement from within Munster that I could attribute to him. Lancaster and McFarland have all made their teams better, quickly. I couldn't really see him being offered any top job in Europe on the back of his Munster stint.

That's it in a nutshell. Especially in McFarlands case.
Van Grab is running out of time and excuses. With Rowntree and Larkham insitu, Munster will have no problems swinging that shepherds hook.

[sunshiner1]

by ronk

Munster still mostly recruit tactically, instead of strategically. If there’s IQ (& previously project) talent available they try and swoop in. They don’t really need or want a plan; if you’re value they want you.

Gallagher was happy in Saracens, but they needed to offload people so he was easy to get. Did it matter that they had signed Haley a season before, or that Conway probably would like some fullback time, nope. Is there a huge gap in developing talent? No, there’s Daly and Coombs. Someone will win and the other will be cut if necessary.

Salanoa is looking at Connacht going from an academy to a development contract. Sure, take a punt. Archer is 33, if he works out you have a replacement. If he doesn’t, you can say you tried when you ask for a NIQ.

You have a chance to sign guys like Snyman and de Allende: bye bye Sammy Arnold.

Beirne wants to play for Ireland and will take less than Scarlets (!) have offered. Yes, please. Carbery is available but we have 4 out halves including 3 premium signings. Solve that later.

JOD is the most promising backrow in over 5 years, sign Botha.

Casey is the most promising scrum half in 10 years, extend Mathewson and milk him until his last day, and also pick up Nick McCarthy. All while trying out Cronin.

Farrell and Hart had gotten some good press in France and wanted to get caps, same same.

Leinster mostly don’t just pickup players for the sake of it. Boss and Reddan finish up together and McGraph is relatively unproven. Park was the perfect standard to be good enough to start but not so good that McGrath doesn’t play. They push each other on. Leo doesn’t sign anyone else (edit: NIQ).

Next year Triggs and McCarthy retire together, he signs Fardy. Fardy is versatile enough to cover 6 too where Ruddock is but there isn’t much young depth. Ross Molony gets more opportunities.

It’s easier to do that when you have so much talent coming through, but you’ll never develop much talent if there’s no room on the roster to give chances. Munster can fix everything else, but their development will always lag if they don’t change.

This is the best summary of Munsters policy I have seen yet. Kinda sad when you see it in a nutshell.

[munster#1]

by ronk

Munster still mostly recruit tactically, instead of strategically. If there’s IQ (& previously project) talent available they try and swoop in. They don’t really need or want a plan; if you’re value they want you.

Gallagher was happy in Saracens, but they needed to offload people so he was easy to get. Did it matter that they had signed Haley a season before, or that Conway probably would like some fullback time, nope. Is there a huge gap in developing talent? No, there’s Daly and Coombs. Someone will win and the other will be cut if necessary.

Salanoa is looking at Connacht going from an academy to a development contract. Sure, take a punt. Archer is 33, if he works out you have a replacement. If he doesn’t, you can say you tried when you ask for a NIQ.

You have a chance to sign guys like Snyman and de Allende: bye bye Sammy Arnold.

Beirne wants to play for Ireland and will take less than Scarlets (!) have offered. Yes, please. Carbery is available but we have 4 out halves including 3 premium signings. Solve that later.

JOD is the most promising backrow in over 5 years, sign Botha.

Casey is the most promising scrum half in 10 years, extend Mathewson and milk him until his last day, and also pick up Nick McCarthy. All while trying out Cronin.

Farrell and Hart had gotten some good press in France and wanted to get caps, same same.

Leinster mostly don’t just pickup players for the sake of it. Boss and Reddan finish up together and McGraph is relatively unproven. Park was the perfect standard to be good enough to start but not so good that McGrath doesn’t play. They push each other on. Leo doesn’t sign anyone else (edit: NIQ).

Next year Triggs and McCarthy retire together, he signs Fardy. Fardy is versatile enough to cover 6 too where Ruddock is but there isn’t much young depth. Ross Molony gets more opportunities.

It’s easier to do that when you have so much talent coming through, but you’ll never develop much talent if there’s no room on the roster to give chances. Munster can fix everything else, but their development will always lag if they don’t change.

This is the best summary of Munsters policy I have seen yet. Kinda sad when you see it in a nutshell.

This is the policy of the vast majority of professional sports teams in all codes.

How many teams can you think of in European rugby that do not have a similar policy?

Leinster do have the same policy, just not to the same extent.
Fardy was far from a player that Leinster required, like most of Leinster’s signings he is better than what is available in house, but Leinster had other options, same goes for Lowe, at the time of his signing Leinster had a fair few international back 3 players.

Henshaw from Connacht is another one, he, like most of Munster’s signings is a step up on what was available, but Leinster wanted him because he was available and improved their squad.

Interesting that Casey was mentioned considering that Cullen tried to sign him.

It is professionalism, Leinster will be back to the well again at some stage, these feasts do not last forever, just enjoy it while you have it.

[wixfjord]

Yep, I don't think anyone should have a problem with Munster bringing in guys from outside who are better than what's there within reason.

Particularly if the academy set-up isn't firing, as it hasn't been for quite a while.

All provinces (including Leinster) have done it to some degree at different stages.

There are a few of the examples ronk gives that are a bit OTT imo. Botha & Mathewson were unnecessary.

But bringing in the likes of Beirne, Snyman, Farrell were just smart signings of top quality players.

The question now is whether the tactic of constantly bringing in guys from outside will continue, or whether, with the academy starting to produce more, there's more of an onus put on youth development.

The former approach would be short sighted imo.

[paddyor]

I think it just highlights how difficult it is to win a HC.
On paper Leinster should have at least 2 more wins under their belt, but sport isn’t won on paper.

For Munster to win a league they will most likely have to beat Leinster in a knockout game, which is possible, but even with the current crop of players and coaches, it is no easy task.

I as a supporter want Munster to win everything, but it is important to be a realist.
I will be happy to see Munster back in finals again, and to make TP a fortress again, where every visiting team believes that they will lose before the game even starts.

That's not what you said for much of the 7 years and tbf you were partly right.

[ronk]

This is the policy of the vast majority of professional sports teams in all codes.

How many teams can you think of in European rugby that do not have a similar policy?

Leinster do have the same policy, just not to the same extent.
Fardy was far from a player that Leinster required, like most of Leinster’s signings he is better than what is available in house, but Leinster had other options, same goes for Lowe, at the time of his signing Leinster had a fair few international back 3 players.

Henshaw from Connacht is another one, he, like most of Munster’s signings is a step up on what was available, but Leinster wanted him because he was available and improved their squad.

Interesting that Casey was mentioned considering that Cullen tried to sign him.

It is professionalism, Leinster will be back to the well again at some stage, these feasts do not last forever, just enjoy it while you have it.

Most teams avoid recruiting in positions where they are filled with talent. Even clubs that do a lot of business usually have a plan for players they sign. Saracens picked their areas to invest and developed other areas, even now they are bringing through exciting players. Very few clubs have worse records for player development than Munster post McGahan.

It’s not just comparison with Leinster. Given the age profile there is a very narrow window to fix it before the last of the old guard retire and there’s no memory of what made Munster strong.

Fardy and Lowe were players with no direct comparison in areas where there were leaving players, gaps in the pipeline and who made important impacts in HC winning campaign.

They changed how Leinster played.

Tomane was a reaction to losing Carbery, we needed depth and he was talent. Casey was a sensible move, but not one we broke the bank for. We lost McCarthy and were not having an easy time with bringing the next tier through. On the other side Casey was looking blocked: McCarthy coming in, Cronin, and Mathewson getting extended again. Murray was over the worst of his injury struggled too.

There was clear room for Casey, but McCarthy was joining a club with more scrumhalves. The unfortunate part is that Munster took interest in Casey (& promoted him) only after Leinster tried to recruit him.