Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[Sugary tae]

g
Munster still mostly recruit tactically, instead of strategically. If there’s IQ (& previously project) talent available they try and swoop in. They don’t really need or want a plan; if you’re value they want you.


Gallagher was happy in Saracens, but they needed to offload people so he was easy to get. Did it matter that they had signed Haley a season before, or that Conway probably would like some fullback time, nope. Is there a huge gap in developing talent? No, there’s Daly and Coombs. Someone will win and the other will be cut if necessary.

Salanoa is looking at Connacht going from an academy to a development contract. Sure, take a punt. Archer is 33, if he works out you have a replacement. If he doesn’t, you can say you tried when you ask for a NIQ.

You have a chance to sign guys like Snyman and de Allende: bye bye Sammy Arnold.

Beirne wants to play for Ireland and will take less than Scarlets (!) have offered. Yes, please. Carbery is available but we have 4 out halves including 3 premium signings. Solve that later.

JOD is the most promising backrow in over 5 years, sign Botha.

Casey is the most promising scrum half in 10 years, extend Mathewson and milk him until his last day, and also pick up Nick McCarthy. All while trying out Cronin.

Farrell and Hart had gotten some good press in France and wanted to get caps, same same.

Leinster mostly don’t just pickup players for the sake of it. Boss and Reddan finish up together and McGraph is relatively unproven. Park was the perfect standard to be good enough to start but not so good that McGrath doesn’t play. They push each other on. Leo doesn’t sign anyone else (edit: NIQ).

Next year Triggs and McCarthy retire together, he signs Fardy. Fardy is versatile enough to cover 6 too where Ruddock is but there isn’t much young depth. Ross Molony gets more opportunities.

It’s easier to do that when you have so much talent coming through, but you’ll never develop much talent if there’s no room on the roster to give chances. Munster can fix everything else, but their development will always lag if they don’t change.
[/quote]

A very interesting post. A lot of which I agree with. Effectively we need to take the pain to blood a good few of the more promising Local guys to Ensure they’re better down the line.
However as foleys second season showed that particularly if a European campaign goes astray the pressure to win every game becomes extreme. Quite simply it becomes an impossible task for the coach. Jvg seems a wily survivor. I think he has read the tea leaves well.

Munster at the minute are a reasonably decent side but we’re good but short of the very top trophy winning level that saracens, leinster and perhaps racing and Toulouse inhabit. In a lot of ways our excellent home form And really good competition know how have maxed us out for years. Getting A home European Qf is financially more important than winning the league

It’s up to every Head coach To recognise the strengths and weaknesses of his squad and to do all he can to strengthen the squad year on year. Nobody knows how long each coach will get so success, real or relative needs to be immediate.

There definitely is a conservatism at play. 100%. But watching on a weekly basis over several years I feel our squad is overall a far stronger place than when he first took ever. Even leaving aside the sygman/deAllende signings. It will always be cheaper to have a young academy lad ready to come through than either a journeyman project or superstar Signing.

You’ve gone through a list of players so I’ll just give my thoughts on each

One thought though. Coaches see (And have to see) Irish qualified players, projects or Granny rule in the same light as the local lad who’s dad pulls the pints down at the club. You and I as locals may not see it that way but any coach worth his salt uses every loophole to his advantage. In many ways it’s up to nucifora to refuse jvgs requests. I’d love beauden Barrett but it isn’t in anyone’s best interest long term.

Regarding Gallagher And the back 3 there was strong rumours that Haley was returning to UK last December. Something about family settling or New kid. If that’s true then jvg is remiss not to have a ready made IRISH qualified player. If Haley commits to stay as rumoured then Munster just have another decent player on their hands. They’re also in a better position as earls is entering his 33rd year.
I’ve great time for both Shane daly and Calvin Nash. They’ve both streaked ahead of The opposition. Sweetnam has had a terrible injury run. Assuming earls And Conway are Regularly gone to Andy Farrells fun camp I’d expect Sweetnam daly and Nash to play most of the pro14 games. For me daly is a future international. Wooten culled.
Below that you have wren french and Liam Coombes in academy. At the end of the year I think it’ll be 3 into 1 spot tbh. I’m sceptical on all tbh. French is gifted but very suspect defensively. Pro sport is cruel.

Arnold leaving is just the usual progression. Hard hitting lad but for me not good enough to be starting 12 or 13 in a big game. He defensively won’t let you down as shown by his bravery in the Toulon game but when our attack is as insipid as ours is at times then you just want more. Ask yourself would he start bar an injury crisis at any of Leinster sarries Toulouse or racing. That’s the bar. I think he’ll do fine at Connacht. Probably play loads and maybe with a guaranteed spot he’ll flourish but let’s be frank he’s started plenty of games and he hasn’t offered enough going forward. Fully expect him to cut a few of our guys in two in the next interpro


Fully agree with you on Botha. Made sense for season one but for his second season those minutes should have gone to gavin Coombes and jack o Sullivan 100%. That was short term and frankly while it may have fluffed a few results better in the long run it’s not the way to go.

Scrum half is the same. For me Cronin and McCarthy are both at an average level. Casey is a future international. Holding on to album for the final 6 months showed what jvg thought of Cronin and McCarthy. Locally it seems alby was brilliant in terms of training and implementing larkhams new game plan etc. I’ll watch that one next season. I expect Casey to really push a starting spot. Murray 60 and Casey 20 could be a great way to blend both for the big games.

Not being smart but checking up on dates triggs signed when McCarthy retired. Fardy signed when triggs was let go. And that’s perfect but sometimes people have a rose coloured view of history. Likewise Ben teo signed when bod retired and henshaw signed when teo overlooked a further year to be a project and realised his moms passport was worth more. (Who could Blake him pro ball is a cruel game on the body)
Leinster go to the market and recruit excellently. They’ve had very few duds. Their low value triggs level guys work out very well. Point is every club even one with the natural resources and phenomenal conveyor belt as Leinster need routinely to sign players.

That’s certainly not to say I’m personally 100% happy with all the signings in jvgs era with Munster

[hugonaut]

Daly is very talented. I'm a fan. Well-balanced, speed in the open field and an overall fine-tuned rugby player. Might be a bit of a weird thing to say, but he strikes me as more of a Leinster-type of back than a Munster-type of back.

Nash was very impressive for the U20s in 2017, a real stand-out. He hasn't prospered thus far, but time is definitely on his side - he's still 22. Earls will be 33 early next season and has one more year on his current deal, and realistically that is at the extreme end of things for an Irish winger. I'd say he'll get one more year after that if he holds up well in the coming season. As good as he has been, you don't see very many [any?] 35 year old wingers in the pro game.

I think Sean French has a lot going for him. From what I heard anecdotally, he had a bit of an iffy attitude at one stage, but he's a young guy and he wouldn't be the first to have to rethink his approach a little bit.

[ronk]

Maybe it would be more illustrative to talk about the players we didn’t try to sign: like Gallagher. Kearney was on the way out, Larmour is moving about (& going to be with Ireland a lot) so the salient question is whether he’s a better player than Hugo Keenan.

If Munster had Leinster’s squad they would have tried to sign Gallagher. Everyone knew who he was and that he was on the market. He is as eligible for Ireland in Leinster and Munster.

But Leinster don’t appear to have attempted to sign him. Gallagher is versatile too.

I am a fan of Keenan, but to be honest I’m a little more excited about Daly. He‘s got a lot of potential, he can make things happen. Keenan is developing and getting better. I think most fans were happy we are trusting him and didn’t think we should have gone for Gallagher.

Munster signed Holloway and Mathewson as RWC jokers, but they were undercooked for the HC. It didn’t help in the short term, it’s not going to help in the long term.

Munster have to replace Kilcoyne, Archer, Ryan, Holland, O’Donnell, O’Mahony, Murray and Earls in not a huge amount of time. I don’t have an issue with signings but let’s not pretend that Super Rugby capped players are coming because they are cheaper than lads on development contracts. Signing players is more expensive. Wasting money now will never get Munster to sustain the heights that Toulon and Saracens reached.

[Sugary tae]

Holloway was a braindead pickup. Couldn’t understand that one. I just checked back though and I have him down for just 119 mins on the field in all his time here mercifully.
Gav Coombes and fineen seem to be getting lots of minutes in those games so it arguably that that minutes should have gone to jack o Sullivan. And every minute on field counts. It’s wasted wages/resources also.

Thats the big issue most of us have with Johan. He needs to take the pain and just blood guys like jos more.

I can almost tolerate alby tbh. He was having a massive impact on the others around him. (Particularly JJ). And Casey was both injured and away at jwc at that time. It probably said more that Cronin and McCarthy aren’t at the races.

[Sugary tae]

Daly is very talented. I'm a fan. Well-balanced, speed in the open field and an overall fine-tuned rugby player. Might be a bit of a weird thing to say, but he strikes me as more of a Leinster-type of back than a Munster-type of back.

Nash was very impressive for the U20s in 2017, a real stand-out. He hasn't prospered thus far, but time is definitely on his side - he's still 22. Earls will be 33 early next season and has one more year on his current deal, and realistically that is at the extreme end of things for an Irish winger. I'd say he'll get one more year after that if he holds up well in the coming season. As good as he has been, you don't see very many [any?] 35 year old wingers in the pro game.

I think Sean French has a lot going for him. From what I heard anecdotally, he had a bit of an iffy attitude at one stage, but he's a young guy and he wouldn't be the first to have to rethink his approach a little bit.

Daly benefitted massively from being with the sevens (like goggin before him). Compared to the year before when he seemed at sea. It might be a slow burner but I think theres an international there.
Nash apparently found the transition to big boy tough. He’s knuckled down Apparently. Put on a bit of weight. From Xmas on last year he looked very sharp. Had a good introduction to Europe v ospreys and wasn’t overawed.

French is a funny one. I saw him a few times with pres at underage and his ability is definitely there. As good an attacking ability as I’ve seen underage since earls tbh but he’s always had issues defensively. Not exactly in the Ian humphries hiding sense but his reads were poor. The kind of thing that gets crucified at the top level. I’ve no issue with a young lad being cocky and full of beans etc. I’ve seen him play wing for con twice. He has plenty to work on. I wouldn’t expect to see him soon but if they can develop that side Of his game to even a passable level his attaching will carry him


As an aside leinsterites. What’s yere thoughts on salanoa as a player?? Has he too much ground to make up as a prop? He’d be some weapon if he could scrimmage

[Morf]

As an aside leinsterites. What’s yere thoughts on salanoa as a player?? Has he too much ground to make up as a prop? He’d be some weapon if he could scrimmage

As far as I could see he's an athlete.
Strength and power definitely there. Scrummaging technique seemed lacking but times he could power out of it.

Barely carried if at all in sub appearances. Not sure if he got a pass in either.

[wixfjord]

He absolutely buried someone in a ruck though iirc.

The smallest of sample sizes but he looks a very impressive physical specimen.

There's a video of him out sprinting TOD (I think) on Munster social channels today.

[neiliog93]

Salanoa has truly top potential. Really tough on Leinster to lose him after doing all the development work but a potential serious signing for Munster, especially long-term.

[mildlyinterested]

Has top potential.. will he reach the very top level at Munster? TBD.

Leinster will survive without.

[wixfjord]

Has top potential.. will he reach the very top level at Munster? TBD.

Leinster will survive without.

By god you're really turning up the bitterness levels against Munster in recent days! Still a month to go til the big kick off, hold some of it in!

[FLIP]

Has top potential.. will he reach the very top level at Munster? TBD.

Leinster will survive without.

By god you're really turning up the bitterness levels against Munster in recent days! Still a month to go til the big kick off, hold some of it in!

It's hardly bitterness to point out the fact that no player moved to Munster from another province in over a decade has reached their top potential and therefore it is unlikely that Salanoa will. Even Conway, the biggest success story, is below what he could have been.

[mildlyinterested]

Has top potential.. will he reach the very top level at Munster? TBD.

Leinster will survive without.

By god you're really turning up the bitterness levels against Munster in recent days! Still a month to go til the big kick off, hold some of it in!

Munster hardly have a stellar record of developing TH's especially ones as raw as Salanoa.

[wixfjord]

Munster hardly have a stellar record of developing TH's especially ones as raw as Salanoa.

You had an issue with Salanoa joining in the first place right? So you should be glad he's off the books?

[mildlyinterested]

Munster hardly have a stellar record of developing TH's especially ones as raw as Salanoa.

You had an issue with Salanoa joining in the first place right? So you should be glad he's off the books?

don't really mind, good luck to him down south, by all accounts he is a good guy who came under severe pressure to move with the promise of more game time and better coaching. We shall see.

[munster#1]

Salanoa definitely seems like an exciting prospect, and with him and Knox, Munster may have tight head wrapped up for the next 10 years.

Word is that Salanoa was an IRFU project as opposed to a Leinster project, with the IRFU paying his salary and expenses. The IRFU made the decision that he should move elsewhere to improve his chances of game time.
The other 3 provinces were told that if they want him then they should put their case forward, and the player ultimately picked Munster.

I do wonder if it is still the case that the IRFU are still paying his salary, if so, then it would be a good bit of business by Munster, just like Leinster with Henshaw.

Munster are fortunate having 2 very good Tightheads on their books already, so they do not have to rush the young bucks development, but with Ryan likely to be involved with Irish squads, there will be plenty of minutes to go around.

Having an accomplished coach such as Rowntree coaching 2 players with such potential is a dream come true for Munster and Ireland, well assuming that they declare for Ireland.

[ronk]

Munster hardly have a stellar record of developing TH's especially ones as raw as Salanoa.

You had an issue with Salanoa joining in the first place right? So you should be glad he's off the books?

Ambivalence about recruiting foreign players into the academy is one thing. Losing two tightheads as they graduate out of the academy to other provinces is another.

[leinsterforever]

Salanoa seemed a bit lost to me - as if he didn't really know where to position himself because he wasn't a natural reader of the game. Has excellent mechanics and power and speed obviously, which makes him an interesting prospect. You'd almost want to stick him in at no. 8 and get him carrying off the base of the scrum. I was watching Billy V's try in the final last year and it made me think the nearest thing Leinster had to that was putting Furlong or Salanoa in at 8 to carry.

[wixfjord]

Ambivalence about recruiting foreign players into the academy is one thing. Losing two tightheads as they graduate out of the academy to other provinces is another.

And false equivalence is another.

[Up Wexford]

Snyman and De Allende up in Dublin in Devitts pub on Camden St during the week, RG Snyman seems a likeable character off the pitch anyway

[ronk]

They should be isolating. If all the players isolate then the chances of matches going ahead is higher.

Not cool