Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[hugonaut]

They still have Scannell. And he’s been demoted at 12.

Was just about to say that Ronk. He has been an ever-present at No12 for five seasons [averaging 22 starts/season in the four full seasons over that period], and they have parachuted de Allende in over him.

He's played outhalf for Munster and the Ireland U20s before, he kicks goals and kicks well from the hand, and he's a well-rounded footballer. It makes a whole heap of sense to have him as a No22 for some games, and a No10 for other games. He has been the constant in the Munster midfield for half a decade, as surprising as that sounds. If he performs well as a No10 it would actually really help his chances of making Irish squads as the midfield replacement.

They also have a really, really talented U20 in Crowley who they should be looking to promote into senior rugby as soon as possible. From their performances for the Irish U20s in their respective years, he's a different class to either Healy or Flannery [in my opinion].

[dropkick]

They still have Scannell. And he’s been demoted at 12.

Was just about to say that Ronk. He has been an ever-present at No12 for five seasons [averaging 22 starts/season in the four full seasons over that period], and they have parachuted de Allende in over him.

He's played outhalf for Munster and the Ireland U20s before, he kicks goals and kicks well from the hand, and he's a well-rounded footballer. It makes a whole heap of sense to have him as a No22 for some games, and a No10 for other games. He has been the constant in the Munster midfield for half a decade, as surprising as that sounds. If he performs well as a No10 it would actually really help his chances of making Irish squads as the midfield replacement.

They also have a really, really talented U20 in Crowley who they should be looking to promote into senior rugby as soon as possible. From their performances for the Irish U20s in their respective years, he's a different class to either Healy or Flannery [in my opinion].

I think Flannery might end up at 15 in the long run and be used as a second playmaker which hes very good at. Very smart lad apparently.


Healy has an outstanding kicking game. He gets massive length too which I think is a bit underrated. In tight, low scoring games is where his kicking ability could be a stand out. He has good passing too and can make a break and is a big lad so he has a lot going for him.


Crowley looks like an x factor player and an all rounder. He also looks like he doesn't lack confidence which is vital for a 10.


They've no better man to guide them than Larkham so I'd like to see them given a shot along with JJ and Scannell but knowing JVG he'll be looking to bring in someone.

[Morf]

Is signing Bleyendaal on another contract just in case completely out of the question?

[ronk]

They still have Scannell. And he’s been demoted at 12.

Was just about to say that Ronk. He has been an ever-present at No12 for five seasons [averaging 22 starts/season in the four full seasons over that period], and they have parachuted de Allende in over him.

He's played outhalf for Munster and the Ireland U20s before, he kicks goals and kicks well from the hand, and he's a well-rounded footballer. It makes a whole heap of sense to have him as a No22 for some games, and a No10 for other games. He has been the constant in the Munster midfield for half a decade, as surprising as that sounds. If he performs well as a No10 it would actually really help his chances of making Irish squads as the midfield replacement.

They also have a really, really talented U20 in Crowley who they should be looking to promote into senior rugby as soon as possible. From their performances for the Irish U20s in their respective years, he's a different class to either Healy or Flannery [in my opinion].

He also fits with the new bigger Munster. They’ve bulked up in the positions they recruited in, particularly as they are reinforcing positions where Munster had been relatively small: centre and lock. Now they have absolutely massive locks in Kleyn and Snyman, & a huge centre pairing of Allende and Farrell. Throw in Gallagher being 15 stone and JJ being bigger than Carbery and you can see a pattern.

Beirne is still out AFAIK, but he makes a small lock and a big backrow.

[munster#1]

I really don’t see signing an out half from one of the other provinces as an option.
Munster would likely be getting someone who is 3rd choice and is unlikely to be at a good enough standard to lead Munster if JJ was to get injured, and is also unlikely to be very far ahead of the likes of Healy, Flannery and Crowley.

As I’ve said already, if we are looking at a 2 -3 month layoff for carberry, then Munster should not look externally at all.
If it is likely to be most of the season, then a short term deal with an NIQ should be looked at.
Munster will only have 2 NIQ players next season, so one more is not that big a deal.

However, if they do sign an NIQ, the Munster should be forced to ensure that all other options are given meaningful minutes throughout the season.

[LeinsterLeader]

For what it's worth, I think if a NIQ 10 is parachuted in ahead of these 3 lads it's a huge slap in the face to those guys and to Munster development. We've been hearing for month's about how 'at last' Munster have some real talent coming through.....well this is it. This is them. If they don't get a chance now then when. There's plenty of opportunity between now and the end of the season to establish a pecking order with the 3 guys so that by next season Munster will now there best 10's 1 to 4.

Also, IMO there is absolutely no way this is going to happen unless the IRFU digs there heels in. JVG will certainly want an experienced 10 and will do all he can to get one (money doesn't seem to be an option with them at the moment).Even a NIQ on a 'short term' will inevitably turn into a 'sale or return' signing. If he's no good he'll be out the door, but if he's good........

[munster#1]

Very hard to call what Munster should and will do at outhalf.
Munster are now down to their 3rd choice out half for the remainder of this season, and the god knows how much of next season.

JJ being the only fit senior out half at Munster, after him you are dipping in to the academy.
Given his injury profile to date, it is likely that he may be sidelined himself throughout the season, which means it is a strong possibility that Munster could go into a HC game with an academy out half starting, and an academy out half on the bench.

What makes this more daunting is that De Allende looks likely to miss the a couple of rounds of the HC duty as he represents his national team in the Championship.

That would mean that moving Scannell to out half would be off the cards, not that it should be on the cards, as he has very limited experience at outhalf, especially in professional rugby.

If Munster want to win Silverware , and given the comments on here JVG has to win silverware to secure his job, then they need to sign an outhalf.
I do believe that Munster should also be taking a longer term view of things, and Healy and Crowley should be given plenty of minutes next season in the league.

[Up Wexford]

I suppose this is the crux of the argument - you don't have to sign an outhalf. You have the Ireland U20s out half, coming from an excellent coaching set up in Bandon, into Stephen Larkhams set up. If you're good enough you're old enough as the saying goes. JJ Hanrahan has been around the block twice in his 28 years and surely has enough big game experience to pilot the team. Ignore these two guys and the cycle repeats itself again.

[Aird]

Agree with Up Wexford Munster will just have to bite the bullet and play the young outhalfs in the Pro14 to get them experience.After all Munster are inclined to treat the league as a second rate competition and only the ERC really matters to the faithful so this arrangement shouldn’t cause them any problems. It wouldn’t be the first time that a medical joker has become a permanent fixture in Limerick.

[RichardP]

For what it's worth, I think if a NIQ 10 is parachuted in ahead of these 3 lads it's a huge slap in the face to those guys and to Munster development. We've been hearing for month's about how 'at last' Munster have some real talent coming through.....well this is it. This is them. If they don't get a chance now then when. There's plenty of opportunity between now and the end of the season to establish a pecking order with the 3 guys so that by next season Munster will now there best 10's 1 to 4.

Also, IMO there is absolutely no way this is going to happen unless the IRFU digs there heels in. JVG will certainly want an experienced 10 and will do all he can to get one (money doesn't seem to be an option with them at the moment).Even a NIQ on a 'short term' will inevitably turn into a 'sale or return' signing. If he's no good he'll be out the door, but if he's good........

I agree with the first paragraph and not with the second. It's a terrific opportunity and it should be embraced by Munster's top management; no Hong Kong international signings please!

[munster#1]

Word is that there is an Aussie on the way

[ronk]

Either way they needed JJ for the bulk of next season. If Carbery was fit he was gone with Ireland.

All he was going to do was warm up for Ireland. As he's not ready, he's held back. If it's minor we'll see him in time for a few minutes on his way into camp. If it's more complicated he will miss that too.

As soon as the internationals start Leinster will lose Sexton and maybe Ross. We'll manage with Frawley and Harry.

If we were in Munster's shoes we wouldn't be signing anyone, but we'd be doing homework in case we got hit by a round of injuries.

[neiliog93]

Word is that there is an Aussie on the way

Ridiculous.

[mildlyinterested]

Word is that there is an Aussie on the way

Ridiculous.

laughable but aslong as they aren't poaching talent from leinster..

[LeinsterLeader]

Word is that there is an Aussie on the way

Unfortunately from the moment JVG said they would try to fill the position from 'within' this was inevitable.

I gotta be honest I fully understand why Munster would want this, but no matter what way I bend it I can't see what the IRFU are getting out of it. It's surely contrary to everything they are trying to achieve by parachuting a NIQ in ahead of 3 lads who could potentially play for the country.

When almost the exact same thing happened with Albe, the word out of the South was that they wanted someone experienced to partner their brand new out half so he wouldn't get broken but that doesn't apply hear.

A real head scratcher!

[dropkick]

Word is that there is an Aussie on the way

Unfortunately from the moment JVG said they would try to fill the position from 'within' this was inevitable.

I gotta be honest I fully understand why Munster would want this, but no matter what way I bend it I can't see what the IRFU are getting out of it. It's surely contrary to everything they are trying to achieve by parachuting a NIQ in ahead of 3 lads who could potentially play for the country.

When almost the exact same thing happened with Albe, the word out of the South was that they wanted someone experienced to partner their brand new out half so he wouldn't get broken but that doesn't apply hear.

A real head scratcher!

Its up to the IRFU to stop it. JVG was always going to try and get as many players in as possible. Hes not that concerned about long term development because he might not be here long term and he needs short or medium term results.


They'll say the 10s are inexperienced but then its a chicken and egg situation. You only get experience by playing and those players have none other than Stephen Larkham coaching them. What better opportunity.

[ronk]

Word is that there is an Aussie on the way

Unfortunately from the moment JVG said they would try to fill the position from 'within' this was inevitable.

I gotta be honest I fully understand why Munster would want this, but no matter what way I bend it I can't see what the IRFU are getting out of it. It's surely contrary to everything they are trying to achieve by parachuting a NIQ in ahead of 3 lads who could potentially play for the country.

When almost the exact same thing happened with Albe, the word out of the South was that they wanted someone experienced to partner their brand new out half so he wouldn't get broken but that doesn't apply hear.

A real head scratcher!

Its up to the IRFU to stop it. JVG was always going to try and get as many players in as possible. Hes not that concerned about long term development because he might not be here long term and he needs short or medium term results.


They'll say the 10s are inexperienced but then its a chicken and egg situation. You only get experience by playing and those players have none other than Stephen Larkham coaching them. What better opportunity.

JVG has been in Munster long term already. He just isn’t that concerned about player development full stop.

The IRFUs problem is they suffer more if Munster fail and Munster are perfectly willing to exploit that. One you’ve funded the recruitment drive, it’s hard to stop at another joker on a better premise than many of the guys who came before him.

But there are very talented young players and there needs to come a point where they get a chance. And if this coach isn’t the one who will give them a chance then there’s no point taking too long before the next guy.

[munster#1]

I am all for promotion from within, but the prospect of any top club going into the HC with no senior out half has to be a non runner.

Do you really think that if Leinster were to lose sexton and Byrne tomorrow, that they wouldn’t look at getting a short term signing?

Munster should definitely play the academy lads in the league, and possibly even during the group stages of the HC if they have a favourable draw, but that is as far as they should go.
If they get minutes and prove their worth, then by all means throw them in. Munster signed Holloway last season as a short term signing, and rightly only gave him limited game time.

it is a gamble to just assume that the 3 academy lads are ready, and then have the whole season go bust if they are not, all because of lack of forward thinking.

[ronk]

We’ve been there more than once. We know the answer to that question. Leinster absolutely would start Frawley or Harry Byrne in a HC match.

Holloway was a waste of time. There was no reason to sign him other than the IRFU allowed it because of the RWC. He wasn’t needed, it was an extended job interview.

[cormac]

We’ve been there more than once. We know the answer to that question. Leinster absolutely would start Frawley or Harry Byrne in a HC match.

Holloway was a waste of time. There was no reason to sign him other than the IRFU allowed it because of the RWC. He wasn’t needed, it was an extended job interview.

When Madigan left for Bordeaux in 2016, Leinster were left with Carbery (20) and Ross Byrne (21) as backups. Both were backed and both ended up starting European games before Xmas.