Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[neiliog93]

I'd forgotten about Denton. Poor old big Tom, always felt a bit sorry for him.

[Keith]

I'd forgotten about Denton. Poor old big Tom, always felt a bit sorry for him.

That was a strange period in terms of signings. Andrew Goodman too was another strange one.

[hugonaut]

I'd forgotten about Denton. Poor old big Tom, always felt a bit sorry for him.

That was a strange period in terms of signings. Andrew Goodman too was another strange one.

Agree with both of you. Denton was actually here for four years – I thought he was one contract and done. Joe signed him originally, O'Connor re-signed him.

I think Joe was really invested in building a tighthead lock from scratch. He had come from the Top14 where the scrum was a massive deal, and after we had to let Nathan Hines go he was always trying to find one. We had Ciaran Ruddock, Mark Flanagan and Ben Marshall in the academy when Joe signed up in 2010-11, none of them a good fit for the job. He brought in Denton and Quinn Roux in the same year - one IQ, the other a project. Joe had huge belief in his ability to coach somebody who was tall and strong into being an effective professional lock, but Denton just didn't have it. I'm not questioning his application, but he just struggled all the way through.

The difference between being 6'6" and 6'4"! He probably would never have had a pro career if he was two inches shorter.

[johng]

So. In the last 20 years we have probably had more "non Leinster developed" players than Munster have had "non munster developed" it's just that currently it is massively the opposite.

[munster#1]

So. In the last 20 years we have probably had more "non Leinster developed" players than Munster have had "non munster developed" it's just that currently it is massively the opposite.

That’s it. If you were to enter the data into a line graph you’d probably see an “X”.

Will be interesting to see what happens over the next 15-20 years.

[neiliog93]

So. In the last 20 years we have probably had more "non Leinster developed" players than Munster have had "non munster developed" it's just that currently it is massively the opposite.

Not sure about that, there are 65 Munster overseas players listed on their wikipedia page. I don't how many Leinster have had by comparison but I don't think our figure would be any higher.

[ronk]

I'd forgotten about Denton. Poor old big Tom, always felt a bit sorry for him.

That was a strange period in terms of signings. Andrew Goodman too was another strange one.

Agree with both of you. Denton was actually here for four years – I thought he was one contract and done. Joe signed him originally, O'Connor re-signed him.

I think Joe was really invested in building a tighthead lock from scratch. He had come from the Top14 where the scrum was a massive deal, and after we had to let Nathan Hines go he was always trying to find one. We had Ciaran Ruddock, Mark Flanagan and Ben Marshall in the academy when Joe signed up in 2010-11, none of them a good fit for the job. He brought in Denton and Quinn Roux in the same year - one IQ, the other a project. Joe had huge belief in his ability to coach somebody who was tall and strong into being an effective professional lock, but Denton just didn't have it. I'm not questioning his application, but he just struggled all the way through.

The difference between being 6'6" and 6'4"! He probably would never have had a pro career if he was two inches shorter.

Bob Casey would have had some Ireland record if he had been younger.

[blockhead]

So. In the last 20 years we have probably had more "non Leinster developed" players than Munster have had "non munster developed" it's just that currently it is massively the opposite.

That's not correct at all.

[Morf]

I'd forgotten about Denton. Poor old big Tom, always felt a bit sorry for him.

That was a strange period in terms of signings. Andrew Goodman too was another strange one.

Agree with both of you. Denton was actually here for four years – I thought he was one contract and done. Joe signed him originally, O'Connor re-signed him.

I think Joe was really invested in building a tighthead lock from scratch. He had come from the Top14 where the scrum was a massive deal, and after we had to let Nathan Hines go he was always trying to find one. We had Ciaran Ruddock, Mark Flanagan and Ben Marshall in the academy when Joe signed up in 2010-11, none of them a good fit for the job. He brought in Denton and Quinn Roux in the same year - one IQ, the other a project. Joe had huge belief in his ability to coach somebody who was tall and strong into being an effective professional lock, but Denton just didn't have it. I'm not questioning his application, but he just struggled all the way through.

The difference between being 6'6" and 6'4"! He probably would never have had a pro career if he was two inches shorter.

He might not ever have been a great player but Denton went from a very noticeably poor player to being unremarkable on the pitch. Which wasn't good enough for Leinster with promising players pushing from behind but he certainly applied himself and improved here.

[blockhead]

So. In the last 20 years we have probably had more "non Leinster developed" players than Munster have had "non munster developed" it's just that currently it is massively the opposite.

Not sure about that, there are 65 Munster overseas players listed on their wikipedia page. I don't how many Leinster have had by comparison but I don't think our figure would be any higher.

It's less than half of that.

[Xanthippe]

So. In the last 20 years we have probably had more "non Leinster developed" players than Munster have had "non munster developed" it's just that currently it is massively the opposite.

As previously mentioned in this thread - here’s the numbers for the past 15 years John

Below is the % of Leinster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 78%
  06/07 = 68%
  07/08 = 68%
  08/09 = 66%
  09/10 = 63%
  10/11 = 72%
  11/12 = 65%
  12/13 = 63%
  13/14 = 64%
  14/15 = 69%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 73%
  17/18 = 76%
  18/19 = 79%
  19/20 = 83%

The average per season is 71%


Below is the % of Munster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 77%
  06/07 = 66%
  07/08 = 79%
  08/09 = 82%
  09/10 = 71%
  10/11 = 78%
  11/12 = 76%
  12/13 = 74%
  13/14 = 73%
  14/15 = 70%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 69%
  17/18 = 63%
  18/19 = 60%
  19/20 = 63%

The average per season is 71%

Also, in all the mention of legends who played for us over the years I can’t believe not a single one of you mentioned Craig Ryland

[Morf]

Also, in all the mention of legends who played for us over the years I can’t believe not a single one of you mentioned Craig Ryland

What was it that George Hook insisted on calling him?

There was Maks van Dyk too wasn't there?

[johng]

Well i was closer than blockhead....

[leinsterforever]

Hook called him Ryeland. His name's Clint Newland.

[leinsterforever]

Surely we've had more than 30-35 overseas players in the last 20 years? At outhalf alone there's Leek, Warner, Holwell, Hekenui, Contepomi, Berquist, Gopperth and Spooner.

[ronk]

So. In the last 20 years we have probably had more "non Leinster developed" players than Munster have had "non munster developed" it's just that currently it is massively the opposite.

As previously mentioned in this thread - here’s the numbers for the past 15 years John

Below is the % of Leinster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 78%
  06/07 = 68%
  07/08 = 68%
  08/09 = 66%
  09/10 = 63%
  10/11 = 72%
  11/12 = 65%
  12/13 = 63%
  13/14 = 64%
  14/15 = 69%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 73%
  17/18 = 76%
  18/19 = 79%
  19/20 = 83%

The average per season is 71%


Below is the % of Munster players in their full squad in the past 15 seasons

• 05/06 = 77%
  06/07 = 66%
  07/08 = 79%
  08/09 = 82%
  09/10 = 71%
  10/11 = 78%
  11/12 = 76%
  12/13 = 74%
  13/14 = 73%
  14/15 = 70%
  15/16 = 72%
  16/17 = 69%
  17/18 = 63%
  18/19 = 60%
  19/20 = 63%

The average per season is 71%

Also, in all the mention of legends who played for us over the years I can’t believe not a single one of you mentioned Craig Ryland

Correlation is not causation: Munster and Leinster's successes are positively correlated with their production of players though.

I think that Munster would have been more successful (& better off financially) in the last 10 years if they had trusted their academy rather than recruiting so intensively.

[Keith]

I'd forgotten about Denton. Poor old big Tom, always felt a bit sorry for him.

That was a strange period in terms of signings. Andrew Goodman too was another strange one.

Agree with both of you. Denton was actually here for four years – I thought he was one contract and done. Joe signed him originally, O'Connor re-signed him.

I think Joe was really invested in building a tighthead lock from scratch. He had come from the Top14 where the scrum was a massive deal, and after we had to let Nathan Hines go he was always trying to find one. We had Ciaran Ruddock, Mark Flanagan and Ben Marshall in the academy when Joe signed up in 2010-11, none of them a good fit for the job. He brought in Denton and Quinn Roux in the same year - one IQ, the other a project. Joe had huge belief in his ability to coach somebody who was tall and strong into being an effective professional lock, but Denton just didn't have it. I'm not questioning his application, but he just struggled all the way through.

The difference between being 6'6" and 6'4"! He probably would never have had a pro career if he was two inches shorter.

I honestly believe he was signed purely because he was IQ and a half decent championship player to bloat the squad, the TH Sean McCarthy was signed for the same reason. There is surely no way anybody at Leinster could have thought these players would be anything more than mediocre. Hopefully we won't see these types of signings again and just look straight to the academy instead.

[Dave Cahill]

I honestly believe he was signed purely because he was IQ and a half decent championship player to bloat the squad, the TH Sean McCarthy was signed for the same reason. There is surely no way anybody at Leinster could have thought these players would be anything more than mediocre. Hopefully we won't see these types of signings again and just look straight to the academy instead.

We will see them again, all the provinces will - Its part of the IQ Rugby (The Exiles) pathway. I'm just surprised that the kid from Outnumbered hasn't rocked up somewhere!

[Sugary tae]

I do think there’s a direct correlation between the amount of QUALITY local lads you produce and the long term success. Produce 4/5 lion level stars who get central contracts every few years allows you to build a class squad and put yourself in the mix. However I don’t for one minute disagree that we haven’t produced enough for the last ten years. Different argument In terms of who didn’t get a chance. Frankly I’ve been at most home games in the decade. There’s been plenty of guys who we hoped would be stalwarts who just never made it. But the fact that none of them actually made it elsewhere after leaving says a lot.
I tend to run a mile from the online discussions on Munster hope grown saffer imports yadda yadda yadda but it’s more nuanced that simply we’re e filling space with journeymen ahead of locals.

I look at each manager in his own right and I think for varying circumstances having a every two year new management for a decade has massively crippled us. However I’m not going to lie as a ST holder for years I’m really watching the progress of our current bunch of young players. Put simply I don’t think we’ve produced a crop this good in god knows how long. In the last year I’ve definitely seen big progress in gavin Coombes, Wycherley daly and Nash but it’s the crop below that excites me to be honest. JOS if he can stay fit has super ability. Hodnett and Ahern could be a star and Casey looks the dogs b*%&!x frankly. It’s whether these guys can all be starting European games in 24 months on merit will make us. Knox I suspect could be a very decent player also. Not many tight heads survive and occasionally dominate at pro14 at 20. There’s a lot of other guys like Healy flannery french mchenry wren who might all individuality make it but for me are a bit back while it’s too soon to know on the 3 players this year Crowley/kendellan/Buckley bar they have all been real stars at senior cup.

I’ve had a lot of time for how jvg has started to progress our squad. His signings have tended to be good and he appears far more ruthless Than previous coaches with non performing squad players. I’m assuming larkham etc can worry about the playing style etc. Johan for me will live or die on getting this crop to fruition.
Right now I see Coombes and jos having lot of available minutes next year with Botha gone.
Daly and Nash will hopefully push on and cement that pro14 spot.
I think Casey had already jumped into the spot under Murray.

Hodnett is a funny one. Only joined the academy fully last year. Suspect he needs more size strength to survive. He’s got super skill great instincts and pace. I really really want to see him get minutes ahead of cloete.

Big year ahead squadwise!!

[johng]

Good post. If van graan is half decent. (And to be fair the jury is still out for me) with Larkham and Rountree there, Snyman and De Allende in the squad and the young players you mention coming through to add to the senior players already there. Munster could be at the start of a good spell.

Having said that I said Cardiff would come good about 4 years ago....... And still get slagged about it