Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I dunno Hugo, I think there are a lot of warning signs about Van Graan. Even go all the way back to when J-Lo got sent off, they had no idea how to break us down and were blessed to win that game. Things aren't so bad that they need to change immediately, but I would be very pessimistic about him going forward. I think there could be a big swing in perceptions this week too if they get walloped in Paris. Yes it was a tough group, but a heavy defeat and being out of the comp before the last round would be seismic IMO.

This is irrelevant because he just signed a new deal but I always thought Rob Baxter was born to coach Munster.

[Twist]

It was a tough draw, but not as tough as it appeared at first. They underperformed against R92 and really should've won. JJs miss is forgiveable because he'd performed heroics to get them level but they shouldn't have been in that hole in the first place. They let an understrength Saracens off the hook in Limerick and in the away game they failed to capitalise on a winning position and then threw away the LBP.

[dropkick]

I dunno Hugo, I think there are a lot of warning signs about Van Graan. Even go all the way back to when J-Lo got sent off, they had no idea how to break us down and were blessed to win that game. Things aren't so bad that they need to change immediately, but I would be very pessimistic about him going forward. I think there could be a big swing in perceptions this week too if they get walloped in Paris. Yes it was a tough group, but a heavy defeat and being out of the comp before the last round would be seismic IMO.

This is irrelevant because he just signed a new deal but I always thought Rob Baxter was born to coach Munster.

Id say JVG will get until the end of next season. He makes some strange calls like putting Goggin on the wing when Goggin was the best center so far this season. Instead he plays Arnold who looks more of an athlete than great rugby player. It's not like Munster are short back 3 players either.


It might have something to do with his 6 forward bench split which shows how influenced he is by South African rugby.


Signing a player like Dr Allende was strange because I thought Munster are trying to upskill and DDA isn't noted for having great hands.


Darren O'Shea has gotten numerous chances all season, Gavin Coombes hardly any yet Colombes looked Munsters best forward when he came on against Ulster. Coombes has pedigree while unfortunately DOS couldn't get on the Worcester team very often.


There's been some strange decisions and he is very reluctant to give young players a chance although he is going that better this season.


I'd be willing to give him a pass this season because he has brought in new coaches and they're trying to make some big changes. Credit to him for that. There's been a bit of an overreaction over the Ulster result and recent results imo. JVG should have done a McFarland and made big changes in his first full season but he just tried to keep things going in the same direction so wasted a few years. It was a major negative for me but I'm willing to give him a pass for this season IF he remains brave and continues with the long term plan.

[Twist]

Yeah I wouldn't be anywhere near giving up on JVG yet. I'm puzzled by the persistence with Wycherly at lock though. His lack of height gets exposed in the lineout and he looks good at 6. I suppose it's because POM is seen as undroppable for big games.

[Oldschool]

Yeah I wouldn't be anywhere near giving up on JVG yet. I'm puzzled by the persistence with Wycherly at lock though. His lack of height gets exposed in the lineout and he looks good at 6. I suppose it's because POM is seen as undroppable for big games.

And there you have it - one of the decisions? that will define both Van Graan and Andy Farrell. Murray is the other.
Right now CJ is the only Munster player (at 6) that you'd pick for the Ireland 23 against Scotland.
Kilcoyne would be close tbf. Beirne too, if he was available.
Carberry may join him depending on how he plays over the next few weeks.
Earls (but not on form) and Farrell might come into the reckoning too.
Scannell depending on injury situation elsewhere.

[Dave Cahill]

Jesus, how unlucky can the poor guy get - Joey Carbery has suffered a suspected broken arm in training today

[wixfjord]

Wrist ligaments according to Munster. Not as bad but still shocking luck.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... -181309973

(If I were to be very cynical, I wonder in the back of his head of JVG is going 'hmmm, this is bad, but it also provides me with a bit of a foil for the season we've had too.')

[artaneboy]

Wrist ligaments according to Munster. Not as bad but still shocking luck.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... -181309973

(If I were to be very cynical, I wonder in the back of his head of JVG is going 'hmmm, this is bad, but it also provides me with a bit of a foil for the season we've had too.')

Depending in the damage, ligament injuries can be much worse than a straightforward break. For a wristy player like Joey, I’d say that very serious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blockhead]

Joey's havin a poor run of luck no doubt. And lets not be knobs about it, he could have had the same bad luck if he stayed at home. He is a special talent and I hope he comes out of this bad spell in good health and ready to wow is all again, maybe even in blue.

Harry Byrne is not cup-tied right?
Bollix!

[Xanthippe]

Joey's havin a poor run of luck no doubt. And lets not be knobs about it, he could have had the same bad luck if he stayed at home. He is a special talent and I hope he comes out of this bad spell in good health and ready to wow is all again, maybe even in blue.

Harry Byrne is not cup-tied right?
Bollix!

Might be after Sunday!!!

[Dave Cahill]

Simon Zebo has been ruled out of the game at the weekend with ankle twang. Rumours that the injury was incurred chasing an ice cream van are not being denied.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Is that a medical term?

I can't wait for this game. Munster are absolutely desperate for a big performance to stay in the competition and to make up for the last two games, but Racing tore them apart in Thomond for a lot of that game and will be licking their lips and playing them again.

Gutted for Joey, hopefully he won't be out for too long and has used up all his bad luck.

[Dave Cahill]

Yep, a twang is a lower grade owie. Less severe than a knack, but worse than an ouch

[hugonaut]

A growing number of people are suggesting that Ben Healy should start at outhalf against Racing, which seems absolutely bonkers to me.

Healy was a back-up outhalf last season for the U20s, starting 3 of 10 games [and playing in 3 others]. He was not a swashbuckling underage superstar like JJ Hanrahan was; he was a role-player.

He has only played in one first-grade match in his career, and the idea is to now send him out to play against Racing Metro, away from home, in the key European game of their season as the lead decision-maker in the Munster side? That to me is just f*cking mental. They should take the pragmatic option, move Scannell in to No10 and play Goggin and Farrell together in the centres.

There is no upside to playing Ben Healy in this game. He's not a talent that demands promotion. He's got no experience. He hasn't played with any of the likely backline in a competitive game – the backline against Edinburgh was Nick McCarthy, Healy, Wooton, Goggin, Arnold, Nash, Daly. He's at best fourth choice outhalf behind Carbery, Hanrahan and Bleyendaal, so he hasn't had a lot of time in there at training; he didn't get much last year because they had Keatley and Johnston there as well. He can't do anything - kick, run, pass, tackle – that Scannell can't do better. Putting him head-to-head against Finn Russell could make it a horrific outing for him.

Munster's backline and their attack in general has looked inefficient and cumbersome in the last three games, and they won't be able to live with Racing's backline in an indoors game. There's no point in switching to the next cab off the rank to preserve the rest of the line-up, because the rest of the line-up isn't firing and the next cab off the rank doesn't know how to get anywhere.

That's not to say that Healy shouldn't be involved, because they've been relying on Rory Scannell to cover No10 when they go with a 6-2 split on the bench ... and obviously they can't to that if Scannell is starting at No10. So they have to ditch the 6-2, put Healy in the No22 shirt and Daly [if not starting] in the No23 shirt.

[The Doc]

A growing number of people are suggesting that Ben Healy should start at outhalf against Racing, which seems absolutely bonkers to me.

Healy was a back-up outhalf last season for the U20s, starting 3 of 10 games [and playing in 3 others]. He was not a swashbuckling underage superstar like JJ Hanrahan was; he was a role-player.

He has only played in one first-grade match in his career, and the idea is to now send him out to play against Racing Metro, away from home, in the key European game of their season as the lead decision-maker in the Munster side? That to me is just f*cking mental. They should take the pragmatic option, move Scannell in to No10 and play Goggin and Farrell together in the centres.

There is no upside to playing Ben Healy in this game. He's not a talent that demands promotion. He's got no experience. He hasn't played with any of the likely backline in a competitive game – the backline against Edinburgh was Nick McCarthy, Healy, Wooton, Goggin, Arnold, Nash, Daly. He's at best fourth choice outhalf behind Carbery, Hanrahan and Bleyendaal, so he hasn't had a lot of time in there at training; he didn't get much last year because they had Keatley and Johnston there as well. He can't do anything - kick, run, pass, tackle – that Scannell can't do better. Putting him head-to-head against Finn Russell could make it a horrific outing for him.

Munster's backline and their attack in general has looked inefficient and cumbersome in the last three games, and they won't be able to live with Racing's backline in an indoors game. There's no point in switching to the next cab off the rank to preserve the rest of the line-up, because the rest of the line-up isn't firing and the next cab off the rank doesn't know how to get anywhere.

That's not to say that Healy shouldn't be involved, because they've been relying on Rory Scannell to cover No10 when they go with a 6-2 split on the bench ... and obviously they can't to that if Scannell is starting at No10. So they have to ditch the 6-2, put Healy in the No22 shirt and Daly [if not starting] in the No23 shirt.

After all the logic, you just know they'll announce Healy starting with a 6-2 split on the bench.... I wonder if the bookies will give odds on that?

[OTT]

As you say it would be a bit mad to throw in Healy for this game after seemingly making him the scapegoat (the management anyway) for the loss at home to Edinburgh, he has not been seen since it. I think the problem is that at this stage he should have been involved a lot more. You touched on it before about Munsters use of a 6-2 split on the bench and when you look at some of the games they felt the need to do it in. Dragons in Thomond, Kings away, Ulster in Thomond, what were they scared of here? They were three games that were made for exposing another young back. Then there were other games like the mighty Ospreys where they had a 5-3 split and chose to pick the tried and trusted over giving game time to a talent like Healy.

He might not have been the standout talent for the U20's they were a cracking squad but he was definitely one I remember for his unbelievable kicking game for someone of that age. Another guy who probably only got game time at 10 because of Harry Byrne being injured was Jake Flannery but he reminded me of Joey Carbery when he came through, very loose but full of natural ability I would have thought a coach like Larkham would be pushing to get a player like that involved somewhere in the backline but as it stands Healy has one appearance and Flannery zero. Like they are where they are now with Blyendaal, Joey and potentially JJ out but it is still the same shite they are selling this season as all the others.

[ronk]

Scannell should be 10 if the others are still out. Healy should be a backup.

Munster would be in a better position if they had prepared Healy better with gametime but now is not the time to fix it. They're finished anyway if it goes wrong at the weekend, they may as well use Scannell.

[cormac]

As you say it would be a bit mad to throw in Healy for this game after seemingly making him the scapegoat (the management anyway) for the loss at home to Edinburgh, he has not been seen since it. I think the problem is that at this stage he should have been involved a lot more. You touched on it before about Munsters use of a 6-2 split on the bench and when you look at some of the games they felt the need to do it in. Dragons in Thomond, Kings away, Ulster in Thomond, what were they scared of here? They were three games that were made for exposing another young back. Then there were other games like the mighty Ospreys where they had a 5-3 split and chose to pick the tried and trusted over giving game time to a talent like Healy.

He might not have been the standout talent for the U20's they were a cracking squad but he was definitely one I remember for his unbelievable kicking game for someone of that age. Another guy who probably only got game time at 10 because of Harry Byrne being injured was Jake Flannery but he reminded me of Joey Carbery when he came through, very loose but full of natural ability I would have thought a coach like Larkham would be pushing to get a player like that involved somewhere in the backline but as it stands Healy has one appearance and Flannery zero. Like they are where they are now with Blyendaal, Joey and potentially JJ out but it is still the same shite they are selling this season as all the others.

Flannery has been out injured all season. Only just back in training. Quote from van Graan at the bottom of the article below.

https://www.the42.ie/joey-carbery-munst ... 9-Jan2020/

[OTT]

As you say it would be a bit mad to throw in Healy for this game after seemingly making him the scapegoat (the management anyway) for the loss at home to Edinburgh, he has not been seen since it. I think the problem is that at this stage he should have been involved a lot more. You touched on it before about Munsters use of a 6-2 split on the bench and when you look at some of the games they felt the need to do it in. Dragons in Thomond, Kings away, Ulster in Thomond, what were they scared of here? They were three games that were made for exposing another young back. Then there were other games like the mighty Ospreys where they had a 5-3 split and chose to pick the tried and trusted over giving game time to a talent like Healy.

He might not have been the standout talent for the U20's they were a cracking squad but he was definitely one I remember for his unbelievable kicking game for someone of that age. Another guy who probably only got game time at 10 because of Harry Byrne being injured was Jake Flannery but he reminded me of Joey Carbery when he came through, very loose but full of natural ability I would have thought a coach like Larkham would be pushing to get a player like that involved somewhere in the backline but as it stands Healy has one appearance and Flannery zero. Like they are where they are now with Blyendaal, Joey and potentially JJ out but it is still the same shite they are selling this season as all the others.

Flannery has been out injured all season. Only just back in training. Quote from van Graan at the bottom of the article below.

https://www.the42.ie/joey-carbery-munst ... 9-Jan2020/

Ah right thanks Cormac.

Edit, edit, edit

[Oldschool]

Trick question re the argument as to whether Healy or Scannell starts at 10.
Who will be taking the penalty kicks for Munster.
If Munster manage to take Racing to the wire it's going to be because-
A. They stopped Racing putting up a big score.
B. They kicked their points.
If Healy is a significantly better kicker than Scannell then while it might be mad to start Healy at 10, it might not be that stupid.
If Healy starts then Munster need insurance which means a 5-3 split.