Catholic Church

[Scott]

Catholic Church

Did anyone hear Morning Ireland today? The Primate of All Ireland Cardinal Sean Brady said he will not resign over his part in the cover up of the countries most notorious (that we know of) Paedophile priest Brendan Smyth.

When asked why not he said he had ‘done his duty’. He said it was his duty to investigate & questions the children who suffered sexual abuse at the hands of Smyth and report it to his Bishop. It was up to the Then Bishop to act!!


When it was put to him that he had a Duty as a citizen to report the crime of sex abuse (of which he had evidence) to the Garda he said “it was 35 years ago and a different time”. Symth continued to rape children for another twenty years but hey Brady's hands are clean as he 'did his duty'


Sickening

[Grumpy Old Man]

He also said in an interview on RTE last December that if any child had been abused as a result of his action that he would resign.

The stench of hypocrisy is stifling.

[Danthefan]

He was apparently present at a meeting where some of Smyths victims were sworn to secrecy. Really shameful stuff.

[Scott]

The stench of hypocrisy is stifling.

But are we surprised?

Last week it emerged that in the 80's archdiocese of Munich had allowed a known abusive priest to continue pasturing & abusing for years. The then archbishop and head of the diocese of Munich was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger or as he is known today Pope Benedict XVI.

When questioned about this shocking failure to safeguard children from the pedophile the Vatican issued the response that it was the archdiocese's number two official from the time who allowed the priest to continue ministering.

So altought Pope Benedict XVI was the head of the Archdiocese of Munich it was his lower officals who were making the calls. Hmm


SOURCE LINK
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03 ... google_cnn

[Oldschool]

At some point in time, in order to deal with this whole issue, the call for heads is going to have to stop.
Otherwise there will be nobody in the Catholic church, of sufficient authority, left to deal with the issue.
There is straighforward guilt, there is guilt by association, there is guilt by passing the buck, there is guilt by plausible denial.
You name it, there's a lot of guilt.
And if you go outside the church, you'll find there is an awful lot more guilt.

So my first question is really.
How do you deal with this mess and end it.
And it will have to be faced up to, but there are some things that just can't be fixed.
The victims, assuming a perfect addressing of the their individual situations, will still be very damaged.
At what point will they even know, never mind accept, that there is no more that can be done to help them.
(And each individual will have a different threshold of forgiveness or resignation or both - don't even know if they're the right words.)
Who makes that call and how do you even begin a process, that gets you to that point.

We need constructive criticism, because at the end of the day, we're all guilty of something.
Even supporting the institutions, both secular and spiritual, makes us guilty by association.
We, after all, elected the governments that failed these people (on this issue and many others).
And to put my other (mercenary) hat, I/We, as a taxpayer/taxpayers, do not have a bottomless wallet and
therefore can't afford an open chequebook.
I certainly don't want money to be thrown at the problem for the sake of being seen to be doing something
and just avoiding criticism.

My second questions is for the victims to address.

What exactly do you want and I mean exactly.
I don't mean this in any cynical way, in other words I'm not suggesting that it's a squeeze for money or anything like that.
But what do want/need to give you closure.
When will you be able to say, there is nothing else that can be done for me, society has paid its' debt to me.
(This doesn't exclude ongoing treatment, it excludes any further rancour and accusation)
If the present pope were to resign in the morning, would we then discover that his successor has "issues"?
Where does it end?

And my own little suggestion - Absolutely no way, should the previous pope be beauified or sanctified.
Because, sorry to say it, but the buck stops at the top and he was around a long time and he ain't no saint.
The sanctification process should stop right now.
The CC and this pope have nothing to celebrate about right now and need to get down out of its'/his ivory tower and smell
the reality of what the CC has been central in, for a long time.

[johng]

At some point in time, in order to deal with this whole issue, the call for heads is going to have to stop.
Otherwise there will be nobody in the Catholic church, of sufficient authority, left to deal with the issue.
There is straighforward guilt, there is guilt by association, there is guilt by passing the buck, there is guilt by plausible denial.
You name it, there's a lot of guilt.
And if you go outside the church, you'll find there is an awful lot more guilt.

Changes the whole "Catholic Guilt" concept right back around eh?

Throughout the last 500 years of history, the loyalty of catholic subjects or citizens of many countries has been called into question. In these Islands and beyond.
Let's not forget that the Ku Klux Klan was originally anti catholic rather than anti black.

Growing up I always felt this was unfair, and that Catholics would only bow to their church on matters of faith. Like Thomas Moore (Man for all seasons)

This issue highlights that the church always has considered itself above the law. When I was a kid they used to basically dictate the law. (JC McQuaid & Dev)

And we wonder why Unionists are suspicious of the south

[sarah_lennon]

Is it a sin against the law of God not to report matters to the police …no I don’t think so…because there are certain people exempt from this moral obligation to report to the police,

[Broken Wing]

And we wonder why Unionists are suspicious of the south

Well I'm always a bit suspicious of the lads from Cork and Kerry so I don't blame the unionists there.

[Broken Wing]

Is it a sin against the law of God not to report matters to the police …no I don’t think so…because there are certain people exempt from this moral obligation to report to the police,

Is this a confessional seal thing I wonder.

[Scott]

Is it a sin against the law of God not to report matters to the police …no I don’t think so…because there are certain people exempt from this moral obligation to report to the police,

I heard the good Monsignor on Pat Kenny this morning where he was trotting out that line about certain people such as solicitors & priests being exempt from any obligation to report crimes to the Garda but he was quickly shown up to be factually incorrect (or lying whichever you prefer) in that clergy are only exempt relating to issues which arise in the Confessional. Taking written statements from young children does not fall under this exemption

[gfo]

If your friend, or relative, or employee, rapes a child and you know about it but do nothing, you're complicit in the crime.

Sean Brady is an accessory to child abuse, and should be charged and hauled in front of the courts

[Leinster Exile]

Is it a sin against the law of God not to report matters to the police …no I don’t think so…because there are certain people exempt from this moral obligation to report to the police,

Is this a confessional seal thing I wonder.

Thats what I thought when I heard him squirming. But I also thought a RC Priest was supposed to give 16k Hail Mary's and tell the the sinner to go to the police as part of their penance to recieve full forgiveness ?

At least thats the BS they used to feed us in school in the 1980s

[tackle-bag]

If your friend, or relative, or employee, rapes a child and you know about it but do nothing, you're complicit in the crime.

As a matter of law that's not correct, but I can understand where you're coming from.

[Scott]

At some point in time, in order to deal with this whole issue, the call for heads is going to have to stop.
Otherwise there will be nobody in the Catholic church, of sufficient authority, left to deal with the issue.

I remember hearing a priest many years back ( I have idea who he was) on the old David McWilliams Newstalk show discussing the Churches response to clerical abuse. This was about 5 years ago before the reports even began & he stated back then that the church would need to be brought to it’s knees i.e. sell vast amounts of it’s properties, expel huge numbers for being complicit and rebuild from the foundations up before it would every be trusted by the people again. I agree





My second questions is for the victims to address.

What exactly do you want and I mean exactly.


I would have thought the Clergy admitting the role it has played in the cover up would be a start. While there are good men such as Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin,
he is the minority. There is a growing number of priests calling for Diarmuid Martin to step aside because they believe he is unfairly treating people named in the Reports and ruining reputations. Most clergy are giving lip service to guidelines & safeguarding protocaols from the pulpit & in private fighting tooth and nail to conceal what was/is going on.The sad fact is only reason we know about Sean Brady’s part in this scandal is because one of the victims has not allowed herself be bullied by the church. This woman has taken a civil case against Brady, which amazingly began in 1997, and has more amazingly had to fight Bishop Brady and the Church in the courts at every turn. So after ten years of going through the courts the church only handed over the evidence against Symth when the court ordered them to do so.
So this woman has had to deal with being raped as a child & has spent the past 13years trying to get the church to tell her what they knew about Smyth.
So this woman has had to deal with being raped as a child & has spent the past 13years trying to get the church to tell her what they knew about Smyth. I have no idea what she wants but it appears that she is a long way from closure as the church continues to fight her at all costs in the costs instead of admitting guilt and helping her on the road to any possible recovery

[Oldschool]

At some point in time, in order to deal with this whole issue, the call for heads is going to have to stop.
Otherwise there will be nobody in the Catholic church, of sufficient authority, left to deal with the issue.

I remember hearing a priest many years back ( I have idea who he was) on the old David McWilliams Newstalk show discussing the Churches response to clerical abuse. This was about 5 years ago before the reports even began & he stated back then that the church would need to be brought to it’s knees i.e. sell vast amounts of it’s properties, expel huge numbers for being complicit and rebuild from the foundations up before it would every be trusted by the people again. I agree





My second questions is for the victims to address.

What exactly do you want and I mean exactly.


I would have thought the Clergy admitting the role it has played in the cover up would be a start. While there are good men such as Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin,
he is the minority. There is a growing number of priests calling for Diarmuid Martin to step aside because they believe he is unfairly treating people named in the Reports and ruining reputations. Most clergy are giving lip service to guidelines & safeguarding protocaols from the pulpit & in private fighting tooth and nail to conceal what was/is going on.The sad fact is only reason we know about Sean Brady’s part in this scandal is because one of the victims has not allowed herself be bullied by the church. This woman has taken a civil case against Brady, which amazingly began in 1997, and has more amazingly had to fight Bishop Brady and the Church in the courts at every turn. So after ten years of going through the courts the church only handed over the evidence against Symth when the court ordered them to do so.
So this woman has had to deal with being raped as a child & has spent the past 13years trying to get the church to tell her what they knew about Smyth.
So this woman has had to deal with being raped as a child & has spent the past 13years trying to get the church to tell her what they knew about Smyth. I have no idea what she wants but it appears that she is a long way from closure as the church continues to fight her at all costs in the costs instead of admitting guilt and helping her on the road to any possible recovery

I suppose when I asked the question I didn't expect that the question would be answered here on this MB, but a pertinent question is to ask.
Who can give them the answer and who will be on their side and are not part of the Establishment (by which I mean government and church).

[Darce]

Is it wrong that when i opened this thread, I though it was about Charlotte Church?

Must pay more attention

[Scott]

Is it a sin against the law of God not to report matters to the police …no I don’t think so…because there are certain people exempt from this moral obligation to report to the police,

Colm O'Gorman (Founder of clerical abuse victim's group) v Monsignor Maurice Dooley

This is an excellent piece of radio that gives a very clear insight into the mentality of the church in relation to it's responsibility for protecting children from it's members.

http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/M ... -Blog.aspx

[the spoofer]

Is it a sin against the law of God not to report matters to the police …no I don’t think so…because there are certain people exempt from this moral obligation to report to the police,

Colm O'Gorman (Founder of clerical abuse victim's group) v Monsignor Maurice Dooley

This is an excellent piece of radio that gives a very clear insight into the mentality of the church in relation to it's responsibility for protecting children from it's members.http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/M ... -Blog.aspx

This chapter in the Catholic Churchs history can be described as nothing short of disgraceful. There is no condoning the beahviour of priests or the cover up by the hierarchy. But, and there is a big but (I'm almost afraid to enter this discussion because I know whats coming) the majority of the Church had no role to play in this and yet are all targetted. I'm not a Mass goer but I respect those people who choose to do so.

What % of priests were abusers do you think? I reckoned about 2% but someone I respect and who would have some knowledge of this, reckons that its less than 1%.

I wonder what the statistics for abuse in the home are? To me, the current controversy is been used by certain sections of the media to attack an organisation that they hate.

Anyway, anyone willing to join my new organisation for the defence of those innocent priests? I think I will call it "99 out of 100".

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Catholic Church

Did anyone hear Morning Ireland today? The Primate of All Ireland Cardinal Sean Brady said he will not resign over his part in the cover up of the countries most notorious (that we know of) Paedophile priest Brendan Smyth.

When asked why not he said he had ‘done his duty’. He said it was his duty to investigate & questions the children who suffered sexual abuse at the hands of Smyth and report it to his Bishop. It was up to the Then Bishop to act!!


When it was put to him that he had a Duty as a citizen to report the crime of sex abuse (of which he had evidence) to the Garda he said “it was 35 years ago and a different time”. Symth continued to rape children for another twenty years but hey Brady's hands are clean as he 'did his duty'


Sickening

I agree...it is sickening...but it's not just about the abuse. Priests, bishops etc. were under orders from the vatican NOT to disclose abuse allegations or evidence to the authorities.

The current pope, when he was a cardinal, circulated a secret letter to everyone involved with the church which referred to an older document called Crimen Sollicitationis which essentially outlined how to deal with abuse allegations....i.e. you were facing excommunication if you disclosed any details or evidence to the authorities.

Christopher Hitchens wrote a wonderful piece about it the other day in Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2247861/

That secret document Crimen Sollicitationis isn't so secret any more, though.

The problem for the church is that they had official policy, direct from the vatican, to protect, assist and hide known paedophiles / abusers from the authorities. In other words, the same organisation that claims to have a handle on morals and ethics...is clearly corrupt, deeply immoral and about as unethical as you can possibly get.

The game's up. What gets me is how people can support the catholic church now this is so widely known. I'm not a believer in any of the known 30,000 religions out there, but, if you are that way inclined, I don't understand how you can reconcile your belief while supporting the catholic church.

[the spoofer]

Catholic Church

Did anyone hear Morning Ireland today? The Primate of All Ireland Cardinal Sean Brady said he will not resign over his part in the cover up of the countries most notorious (that we know of) Paedophile priest Brendan Smyth.

When asked why not he said he had ‘done his duty’. He said it was his duty to investigate & questions the children who suffered sexual abuse at the hands of Smyth and report it to his Bishop. It was up to the Then Bishop to act!!


When it was put to him that he had a Duty as a citizen to report the crime of sex abuse (of which he had evidence) to the Garda he said “it was 35 years ago and a different time”. Symth continued to rape children for another twenty years but hey Brady's hands are clean as he 'did his duty'


Sickening

I agree...it is sickening...but it's not just about the abuse. Priests, bishops etc. were under orders from the vatican NOT to disclose abuse allegations or evidence to the authorities.

The current pope, when he was a cardinal, circulated a secret letter to everyone involved with the church which referred to an older document called Crimen Sollicitationis which essentially outlined how to deal with abuse allegations....i.e. you were facing excommunication if you disclosed any details or evidence to the authorities.

Christopher Hitchens wrote a wonderful piece about it the other day in Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2247861/

That secret document Crimen Sollicitationis isn't so secret any more, though.

The problem for the church is that they had official policy, direct from the vatican, to protect, assist and hide known paedophiles / abusers from the authorities. In other words, the same organisation that claims to have a handle on morals and ethics...is clearly corrupt, deeply immoral and about as unethical as you can possibly get.

The game's up. What gets me is how people can support the catholic church now this is so widely known. I'm not a believer in any of the known 30,000 religions out there, but, if you are that way inclined, I don't understand how you can reconcile your belief while supporting the catholic church.

Obviously this is a much more serious issue but I suppose in a way its similar to Harlequins supporters supporting their team while at the same time not supporting Dean Richards or his actions.