J4 Metro League Fixtures

[Duff Paddy]

I'm assuming that there is some sort of legal onus on the IRFU regarding front row players in order to meet the criteria of their insurance policy.

[CRAZYDAVE]

Apologies to anyone who plays for Millmount House. Apparently UCD have to play them in the 1st round of the cup before Tallaght.

The Students V the Screws

[Leinsterman]

I'm assuming that there is some sort of legal onus on the IRFU regarding front row players in order to meet the criteria of their insurance policy.

Yes, the players are covered by their club insurance policies.

[LeopoldButters]

whatever way this is played out rugby without the scrum is not rugby, its well and good for the lads in UCD to say that they cannot get props and must play uncontested but that is hardly fair on the teams that are willing and built to play rugby the way the game should be played. Also as I said before when you have senior teams like Mary's and Terenure going uncontested you know the system is just being abused, its obvious that if certain teams know that they will lose the scrum they will call uncontested scrums and how the hell is that rugby.

[the general]

Even "Senior" clubs have problems getting props. This year Mary's couldn't field a second Under 20 team because they didn't have enough front row players even though they had plenty of players overall.

The issue is whether to give people a good competitive run out with uncontested scrums or have no fixtures.

Uncontested scrums are a travesity but the alternative is to tell 20 guys to p1$$ off and play soccer/gaa!

[Holding on]

re Scrums

It's J4 rugby!! This level is aimed at people who are just starting out. The whole idea is to enjoy the game and learn the rules within a controlled enviroment.

If teams are forced to forfeit all their games and withdraw from the league we are just losing another 15 players who would like to be playing rugby but can't find a suitable outlet.

To suggest that teams are loading up with a pack full of backrowers would suggest a level of organisation well beyond anything I have seen from most teams this year. For the most part it is last minute phone calls just trying to get to 15 players so a game can be played.

If teams are so keen to scrummage, why not enter the J3 league? The standard is reasonably similar and you will get your wish to srcummage while leaving all the newbies and lazies to play at J4 in peace.

Incidentally, I do agree that the scrum is a fundamental part of the game and say for the play off phases of the league it should be mandatory, but it defeats the whole point of J4 rugby to insist on contested scrums in all games.

[cud]

re Scrums

It's J4 rugby!! This level is aimed at people who are just starting out. The whole idea is to enjoy the game and learn the rules within a controlled enviroment.

If teams are forced to forfeit all their games and withdraw from the league we are just losing another 15 players who would like to be playing rugby but can't find a suitable outlet.

To suggest that teams are loading up with a pack full of backrowers would suggest a level of organisation well beyond anything I have seen from most teams this year. For the most part it is last minute phone calls just trying to get to 15 players so a game can be played.

If teams are so keen to scrummage, why not enter the J3 league? The standard is reasonably similar and you will get your wish to srcummage while leaving all the newbies and lazies to play at J4 in peace.

Incidentally, I do agree that the scrum is a fundamental part of the game and say for the play off phases of the league it should be mandatory, but it defeats the whole point of J4 rugby to insist on contested scrums in all games.

Fully agree with this. It's the J4 league. If some people are so appalled by the inability of some teams to find suitable front rowers then why don't they just go up a division.

[Skyhawk]

re Scrums

Its J4 This level is aimed at people who are just starting out.

Or finishing in many cases

[Skyhawk]

Some very good arguments here, yes it is bad to see the system abused i.e. a big club playing a few extra centres or BRs in the front row for uncontested scrums.

However a valid point is that there is a huge lack of props in the game, there are something like 32 teams in J4, now don't tell me there are 100 well qualified front rows in J4…..saying that,the system should not be abused!

I agree with the rugby dude, the scrum is an integral part of rugby union and if you don’t like it, go off and play RL.

[tate]

Fully agree with this. It's the J4 league. If some people are so appalled by the inability of some teams to find suitable front rowers then why don't they just go up a division.

then what would they moan about?

[HUCKER RUCKER]

not feasible to play J3 as we already have a J3 team (that also scrummage) and we prefer playing saturdays. what should be done is to have the thing broken into different sections, scrummaging and non scrummaging. we have to play a cup now with contested scrums after not contesting scrums all year, thats a bit ridiculous now.

[tate]

not feasible to play J3 as we already have a J3 team (that also scrummage) and we prefer playing saturdays. what should be done is to have the thing broken into different sections, scrummaging and non scrummaging. we have to play a cup now with contested scrums after not contesting scrums all year, thats a bit ridiculous now.

no pleasing some, is there

[LeopoldButters]

not feasible to play J3 as we already have a J3 team (that also scrummage) and we prefer playing saturdays. what should be done is to have the thing broken into different sections, scrummaging and non scrummaging. we have to play a cup now with contested scrums after not contesting scrums all year, thats a bit ridiculous now.

no pleasing some, is there

tate you are talking about peopel walking away from the game but you forget about the people who want to play rugby the proper way and are denied that. in some cases teams that are will to scrummage end up dropping there front row for centres and then the front row don't get to play. if you looke at the j4 league Section A, there are 4 teams that always want to scrummage. Trinity, Barnhall, Stillorgan and Bective, if you look at the bottom of the table you will see all 4 teams. its very hard to play a game when the rules get changed on the day.

Tate, you want to see the teams that play Rugby Union penalised for playing the game the way it should be played, all we ask is the teams that don't want to play the peoper way get penalised.

[tate]

no, i dont want to see any team penalised for wanting to scrummage. The fact is at J4 level allowances have to be made for the weekend warriors, remember we're not talking about top athletes here, just some guys who want to play some rugby at the weekend. Would you rather see an increase in the number of (serious) neck injuries cos teams have to field inexperienced props? As one ref told us before a game, "lads i dont want to see any heroes out here so if you're hurt let me know and we'll sort it"

I also really dont think that having a few scrums is really so critical to a game plan and the winning of a game. If it is, then maybe you should get some decent backs and try running the damn thing, remember backs are as much a part of rugby union as the scrum

[Soundgav2]

tate you are talking about peopel walking away from the game but you forget about the people who want to play rugby the proper way and are denied that. in some cases teams that are will to scrummage end up dropping there front row for centres and then the front row don't get to play. if you looke at the j4 league Section A, there are 4 teams that always want to scrummage. Trinity, Barnhall, Stillorgan and Bective, if you look at the bottom of the table you will see all 4 teams. its very hard to play a game when the rules get changed on the day.

Tate, you want to see the teams that play Rugby Union penalised for playing the game the way it should be played, all we ask is the teams that don't want to play the peoper way get penalised.

I'm not sure if you're implying that the other teams in that pool opt to go uncontested and are therefore at the top, but that's not the case. Mary's have only gone uncontested in one game (a dead rubber). In every other case, it was the opposition (including Trinity twice) who opted for uncontested scrums. I find it hard to believe that Terenure B have opted for uncontested scrums in many cases either.

[LeopoldButters]

tate you are talking about peopel walking away from the game but you forget about the people who want to play rugby the proper way and are denied that. in some cases teams that are will to scrummage end up dropping there front row for centres and then the front row don't get to play. if you looke at the j4 league Section A, there are 4 teams that always want to scrummage. Trinity, Barnhall, Stillorgan and Bective, if you look at the bottom of the table you will see all 4 teams. its very hard to play a game when the rules get changed on the day.

Tate, you want to see the teams that play Rugby Union penalised for playing the game the way it should be played, all we ask is the teams that don't want to play the peoper way get penalised.

I'm not sure if you're implying that the other teams in that pool opt to go uncontested and are therefore at the top, but that's not the case. Mary's have only gone uncontested in one game (a dead rubber). In every other case, it was the opposition (including Trinity twice) who opted for uncontested scrums. I find it hard to believe that Terenure B have opted for uncontested scrums in many cases either.

Stillorgan played Marys and Terenure over the past two weeks and both have gone uncontested.

[cud]

not feasible to play J3 as we already have a J3 team (that also scrummage) and we prefer playing saturdays. what should be done is to have the thing broken into different sections, scrummaging and non scrummaging. we have to play a cup now with contested scrums after not contesting scrums all year, thats a bit ridiculous now.

no pleasing some, is there

tate you are talking about peopel walking away from the game but you forget about the people who want to play rugby the proper way and are denied that. in some cases teams that are will to scrummage end up dropping there front row for centres and then the front row don't get to play. if you looke at the j4 league Section A, there are 4 teams that always want to scrummage. Trinity, Barnhall, Stillorgan and Bective, if you look at the bottom of the table you will see all 4 teams. its very hard to play a game when the rules get changed on the day.

Tate, you want to see the teams that play Rugby Union penalised for playing the game the way it should be played, all we ask is the teams that don't want to play the peoper way get penalised.

I find it hard to believe that the reason Bective, Trinity etc are down the bottom of the league is because of uncontested scrums. I can only speak for UCD, but the simple fact is this, were it not for the rule allowing uncontested scrums, collidge would have been left with two choices. 1 - Playing totally unsuitable players in a highly specialised position or 2 - Not competing in the league at all. Over the season the club has tried to bring in props and against Bective (the second last game in the league) the scrums were contested. Ask yourself which is better, having no UCD team in the J4 league or one that after a successful season is now able to field a squad including 3 specialist props? If nothing else, this should ensure a team that will be able to play "real" rugby for the entirety or next season.

[HUCKER RUCKER]

HUCKER RUCKER wrote:
not feasible to play J3 as we already have a J3 team (that also scrummage) and we prefer playing saturdays. what should be done is to have the thing broken into different sections, scrummaging and non scrummaging. we have to play a cup now with contested scrums after not contesting scrums all year, thats a bit ridiculous now.

TATE wrote:

no pleasing some, is there


no, just pointing out the inconsistincies of it all! how can the non-scrummagers have learnt all of a sudden? 3 of our matches this year have finished with contested scrums (out of 12) so 9 went uncontested.
of those 9, either 4 or 5 were uncontested from the very start, others reverted that way before the match was finished as a contest.

[LeopoldButters]

after a successful season is now able to field a squad including 3 specialist props? If nothing else, this should ensure a team that will be able to play "real" rugby for the entirety or next season.

I think the examples of Marys and Terenure would show that this will not be the case and there is more chance of uncontested again next year. Also if you do not play contested scrums how do you propose to teach these new props how to contest?

And also the scrum is a huge part of the game as it give teams a chance to win the ball back, with uncontested scrums teams are given perfect clean ball. The case that highlighted to me that uncontested scrums were a joke was this season when we gave away a penalty under the posts and instead of taking the 3 points and heading back down the opposition went for an uncontested scrum to try and score a try. My point is based around incidents like this as this is a team with a weak pack who go for a try instead of 3 points, and if team had been made contest I think they would have taken their 3 points and ran.

If teams want to play uncontested they should not be aloud win a game and can only play for a draw, that way you guys get to play but it will encourage you to contest.

[cud]

Nobody would play for a team that could at best get a draw. The fact is that you are living in an ideal world that really is'nt feasible all the time at j4 level. If you want to see the current number of teams remain then it's necessary to make concessions.