Can someone settle a question on Junior / Senior Cups

[The Doc]

Hi,

Who / what determines the schools that go directly into the Junior / Senior Cup (as opposed to going through the other cup comps). Someone said to me it was winners of the leagues in the autumn but I was sure it was the schools committee that decided (I believe the schools apply for which cup they want to go into but it is essentially decided by the committee).

Thanks

[combatlogo]

Hi,

Who / what determines the schools that go directly into the Junior / Senior Cup (as opposed to going through the other cup comps). Someone said to me it was winners of the leagues in the autumn but I was sure it was the schools committee that decided (I believe the schools apply for which cup they want to go into but it is essentially decided by the committee).

Thanks

AFAIK, it's League and Murray/Godfrey Cup semi-finalists and one other. Definitely based on results, not stated preferences.

[eoinzero]

thats not what he's asking.

The school applies for the Section it wants to be in according to strenght, and thus it is decided by the comitee.
In the cup, if you reach a certain point (eg Semi Final) you are promoted to the next Section, (eg St Columbus won section A, promoted to section B, where they reached the Semi final and are then promoted to section C)

The school knows how strong or weak its team is in a particular year, but this usualy does not happen between Section A or B. Usualy Development into Section A.

[The Doc]

thats not what he's asking.

The school applies for the Section it wants to be in according to strenght, and thus it is decided by the comitee.
In the cup, if you reach a certain point (eg Semi Final) you are promoted to the next Section, (eg St Columbus won section A, promoted to section B, where they reached the Semi final and are then promoted to section C)

The school knows how strong or weak its team is in a particular year, but this usualy does not happen between Section A or B. Usualy Development into Section A.

Exactly - thanks. As far as I can know, if I am usually entered into Fr Godfrey but I have a particularly weak team this year I can ask to be put into the weaker cup - now if I get to the semis of that I then enter the Fr Godfrey. And if for some fluke I get to the semis of that I continue on to the Cup proper.

But I'm not sure if I am correct on the first step - who decides teh initial starting point of each school. I thought it was the schools themselves along with the committee. Someone else thought the placing in the Autumn leagues decided who started in which cup.

[oh no where do we go!]

Q

How many years of bad results would it take for a team to be demoted?

I know that DLS Churchtown won the SCT twice in the 80's and now they're a poor sect. a side.
How do schools fall from that level, is it a shift of sporting empahsis or something else.

It seems that every year there is the 'big 7'
Blackrock
Belvedere
Castleknock
Clongowes
Marys
Michaels
Terenure
who automatically are in the last 16,

Then its the 4 league semi-finalists (this yr)

CBC
Andrews
Pres Bray
King's Hospital (im not 100% sure if they were in the semis)

The league playoff
Kilkenny

Then the 4 VMurray sf's
Gonzaga
St Columbas
Cist Roscrea
St Gerards

so my q's are;

How many 1st round defeats would it take before one of these schools had to join in the league and qualify?

and Who would replace them

[bunty85]

Q

How many years of bad results would it take for a team to be demoted?

I know that DLS Churchtown won the SCT twice in the 80's and now they're a poor sect. a side.
How do schools fall from that level, is it a shift of sporting empahsis or something else.

It seems that every year there is the 'big 7'
Blackrock
Belvedere
Castleknock
Clongowes
Marys
Michaels
Terenure
who automatically are in the last 16,

I think a few years ago Michaels were threatened with demotion for losing a few first round games in a row against Rock, could be wrong. They've upped their game recently anyway.

How Castleknock are considered Section C is beyond me. They haven't done anymore than Gonzaga, CBC, Newbridge or any of the other stronger league sides in recent years. Based on the fact they've won a few titles way back when. I think its the early sixties since they last won the competition.

[thebigcheese]

It is up to each school to decide whether they enter the league or not. Castleknock withdrew from the league and decided to enter the top section each year when the middle cup competitions were introduced. They have had no great success in doing this and are probably better off playing in the league. Newbridge College did something similar in the 1990s but pre Vinnie Murray Cup so it had no effect. De La Salle entered section A on the basis of falling numbers in the school and its great to see them back as a league team. Skerries entered the Junior league, and by definition section b of the cup last year but not this year. There is no rule, but it is the school that decides not the branch.

[The Doc]

Presumeably as a coach there is no point entering your team into the Junior / Senior Cup proper if you are going to get trounced and that pretty much ends your season (other than for prestige reasons). So the school will try to place their teams at about the level where they can be competitive. If the team does better than expected you could in theory still make it all the way.

[Clash]

Presumeably as a coach there is no point entering your team into the Junior / Senior Cup proper if you are going to get trounced and that pretty much ends your season (other than for prestige reasons). So the school will try to place their teams at about the level where they can be competitive. If the team does better than expected you could in theory still make it all the way.

I think this is exactly what happened with the St. Gerards JCT this year. Came third in the league, lost the play-off and so qualified for the Godfrey Cup. Got to the semis of the Godfrey and thus qualified for the Junior Cup, then got to the quarters of that, were knocked out and so qualified for the Plate. They've since won the Godfrey. I believe St. Columbas did much the same in the Senior Cup, but got knocked out by CBC in the Cup first round.

I think it's probably the best way to be involved in the Cups, plenty of matches and your season isn't over with the first match.

Speaking of the Plate, I don't see any results for either the Senior or Junior Plates, anyone got these?

[true blue 06]

Q

How many years of bad results would it take for a team to be demoted?

I know that DLS Churchtown won the SCT twice in the 80's and now they're a poor sect. a side.
How do schools fall from that level, is it a shift of sporting empahsis or something else.

It seems that every year there is the 'big 7'
Blackrock
Belvedere
Castleknock
Clongowes
Marys
Michaels
Terenure
who automatically are in the last 16,

Then its the 4 league semi-finalists (this yr)

CBC
Andrews
Pres Bray
King's Hospital (im not 100% sure if they were in the semis)

The league playoff
Kilkenny

Then the 4 VMurray sf's
Gonzaga
St Columbas
Cist Roscrea
St Gerards

so my q's are;

How many 1st round defeats would it take before one of these schools had to join in the league and qualify?

and Who would replace them

a friend of mine who is on the mary's sct this year told me that mary's jct have been demoted in the junior cup as of next year, despite them being part of the ' big 6 ' they will have to qualify in the j's . the mary's j's have been knocked out in the first round for a fe years

[bunty85]

I often wonder how guys who went to the 'Big 6' plus Castleknock can put in at least 6 months work for maybe only one match eg Terenure this year. Thats your year essentialy done with the plate competition not giving you the same competitive drive as for that 1st cup game. The League/Vinney Murray qualification system is a bit of a hinderence for schools outside the 7 and less chance of suceeding come cup time, but they're all essentially cup games giving more games and chances to teams to get that competitve win.

[true blue 06]

I often wonder how guys who went to the 'Big 6' plus Castleknock can put in at least 6 months work for maybe only one match eg Terenure this year. Thats your year essentialy done with the plate competition not giving you the same competitive drive as for that 1st cup game. The League/Vinney Murray qualification system is a bit of a hinderence for schools outside the 7 and less chance of suceeding come cup time, but they're all essentially cup games giving more games and chances to teams to get that competitve win.

i suppose it will all change if the new cup structure goes ahead for next year