Ireland v South Africa (Sat 10th Nov, 17:30)

[CiaranIrl]

A credible source on Boards saying that this is the team, with ROG a maybe for the bench ahead of Jackson. Would be great if true. I'd quibble with a few selections, but broadly speaking, I'd be very happy with it.

15. Zebo
14. Bowe
13. Earls
12. D'Arcy
11. Trimble
10. Sexton (capt)
9. Murray

1. Healy
2. Strauss
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. POM
7. Henry
8. Heaslip

16. Cronin
17. Kilcoyne
18. Bent
19. McCarthy
20. Henderson
21. Reddan
22. Jackson
23. McFadden

[TerenureJim]

Zebo at 15 and Sexton as Capt are bad calls, IMO, let Johnny be a leader he is grand but get Heaslip as captain, Earls to fullback, Bowe in the centre and Zebo to the wing.

[suisse]

That team is very exciting on paper, its just coached by the wrong man. We could have Christian Cullen, Carlos Spencer and Tim Horan in the backline, and we'd still struggle beyond the wrap around move.

No problem at all with Zebo at 15. The only annoying thing about this game is the bloody RWC points. We're a lost cause under Kidney, you'd wish we could just go all out, but there are other things to consider. Really not getting into these games at all.

Back to Zebo, Irish conservatism means many will begrudge this selection. But we're about the only country who wouldn't consider a reasonably radical move like this. The only thing is there are other 15 options, but still. If zebo is at 15, he'll get my full support - and he'll probably interchange Bowe and/or Earls anyway. Trimble? Ugh!

Murray and Trimble aside, I like the look of it. Why not? Throw caution to the wind (HA!) and forget about the RWC. Saffers ain't coming with a full team anyway!

[deco]

Sexton a captain with 2 yard O'Connell starting? Nah.

Other than that, and O'Gara not on the bench ,The team looks credible.

SA by 15.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

The only thing that makes me doubt that team is the lack of DOC. We know that Smal's a fan and SA are the type of team that would he'd want him against.

Would be happy with it if it was the team though. The back three wouldn't be my choice but wouldn't have an issue with it being tried out.

[fourthirtythree]

I'd be happier with Zebo at 15 than Jones. Want to see him play anyway. Sexton as captain doesn't surprise me. Double edged sword though as he has Murray inside him which I would not be in favour of (oh yeah "physicality" ).

Surprised at DOC not in the squad, and suspicious even. Not sure why McCarthy would be ahead of him though he has looked decent the couple of times I saw him. Won't look so good if the ref polices the offside line though.

Glad to see Henderson in there.

[lummix]

Can see zebo on the wing with bowe at full back, otherwise kidneys totally lost it, why would he ask to see bowe at full back at rabo level and not zebo and then start zebo there. The rest looks about right though I don't think it'll be Henderson and McCarthy on the bench as they cover the same positions. I'd also be utterly shocked if ROG isn't there "to close out the game" .....and move sexton to 12(usual sh!t). It's easy enough to predict kidneys teams, there's a guy on the boards here who does have the inside track as he predicted the very unkidney like team that started the first test in new Zealand.

For the record, I'd start mclughlin at 6, cave at 13 earls at 15 with zebo on the wing instead of Trimble, Henderson on the bench to cover second row and blindside with Jennings to allow us to speed up the game so course that'll never happen, the rest I'd go along with

[Logorrhea]

With Murray at 9 it makes feck all difference who plays outside him. It'll be slow ball, no tempo, and everything will be hoofed up the pitch all day.

With that in mind good chasers would be handy.

[Degz]

What had Trimble ever actually done in a green jersey?

Apart from wander aimlessly off his wing and gift tries.

[hugonaut]

Interesting bit of information from Ruaidhri O'Connor in the Indo today re Heyneke Meyer:

"As a coach who was willing to uproot himself and take over Leicester Tigers, and even apply for the Ireland job a number of years ago, Meyer can empathise with Strauss and, while he is concerned by the exodus of young, potential Boks to this country, the senior coach can understand why players leave."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/s ... um=twitter

[Golf Man]

If that is the team then its more positive than negative

15. This was always going to be a bit of a lottery - Zebo/Earls/Bowe - we need all three in the team and I still think that Earls is our best 13 after BOD (Cave being the other option) - let him play there. Zebo has been hugely impressive under the high ball this year and definitely has a better boot than Bowe so I can see the sense in it - there is certainly

10. Sexton as captain - I don't see him as captain if POC is playing - but really really don't understand why people would have an issue with him as captain - he seems to look for this responsibility and its a show of faith in a now senior player

9. Murray - predicatble selection and predictable rubbish being spouted by one eyed Leinster fans - he has his faults (as do all the options as discussed at length). No where near as bad as some on here make out and usual pre-match excuses for Sexton being rolled out. Probably would have gone for Reddan myself but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory this season

Backrow - Again some predictable responses about POM - again generally wrong. He has made an impact every time he has played for Ireland and is a good selection - particukraly at 6 with Henry at 7, which is deserved. Heaslip needs a big game - will probably be required to do far more carrying in this team

Ryan - anybody thinking that a team is picked purely on form is deluded - probably Irelands best forward last year and deserves to retain the jersey - has been a bit messed about this year so far at Munster because of injuries etc

Bench - wrong call for Kilcoyne to be ahead of Court imo if that is the call. I'd have Tuohy on the bench instead of McCarthy but good to see a change from DOC. Henderson would be a good call and better than McLaughlin. Jackson would be great on teh bench but its hard to see Kidney going there. McF is a no brainer

[suisse]

Interesting bit of information from Ruaidhri O'Connor in the Indo today re Heyneke Meyer:

"As a coach who was willing to uproot himself and take over Leicester Tigers, and even apply for the Ireland job a number of years ago, Meyer can empathise with Strauss and, while he is concerned by the exodus of young, potential Boks to this country, the senior coach can understand why players leave."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/s ... um=twitter

Is that information right? Or is he getting mixed up with Jake White? I think I remember there being much confusion when White's name cropped up before, after his comments in 2006 (or did I dream it)?)

IMHO, Meyer is absolutely bang on what he says in that article, especially about Ireland buying/recruiting players

[suisse]

If that is the team then its more positive than negative

15. This was always going to be a bit of a lottery - Zebo/Earls/Bowe - we need all three in the team and I still think that Earls is our best 13 after BOD (Cave being the other option) - let him play there. Zebo has been hugely impressive under the high ball this year and definitely has a better boot than Bowe so I can see the sense in it - there is certainly

10. Sexton as captain - I don't see him as captain if POC is playing - but really really don't understand why people would have an issue with him as captain - he seems to look for this responsibility and its a show of faith in a now senior player

9. Murray - predicatble selection and predictable rubbish being spouted by one eyed Leinster fans - he has his faults (as do all the options as discussed at length). No where near as bad as some on here make out and usual pre-match excuses for Sexton being rolled out. Probably would have gone for Reddan myself but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory this season

Backrow - Again some predictable responses about POM - again generally wrong. He has made an impact every time he has played for Ireland and is a good selection - particukraly at 6 with Henry at 7, which is deserved. Heaslip needs a big game - will probably be required to do far more carrying in this team

Ryan - anybody thinking that a team is picked purely on form is deluded - probably Irelands best forward last year and deserves to retain the jersey - has been a bit messed about this year so far at Munster because of injuries etc

Bench - wrong call for Kilcoyne to be ahead of Court imo if that is the call. I'd have Tuohy on the bench instead of McCarthy but good to see a change from DOC. Henderson would be a good call and better than McLaughlin. Jackson would be great on teh bench but its hard to see Kidney going there. McF is a no brainer

With respect, does everything you disagree with have to be "predictable rubbish by one eyed Leinster fans"? I agree Reddan hasn't "covered himself in glory this season" (frankly, when has he?) but I think most people here are wondering why Murray is an automatic starter now, even if his performances in green (and often in red) have been substandard? For some people, there might be a hint of provincial bias, but then you get people here questioning whether Ferg or D'arcy should be in the team (not this game, but before). I'd imagine the majority of Leinster fans now accept that Earls, Zebo and Ryan should start. I agree POM should, but like you, I wouldn't play Murray. His club team is not the reason.

[fourthirtythree]

If that is the team then its more positive than negative

15. This was always going to be a bit of a lottery - Zebo/Earls/Bowe - we need all three in the team and I still think that Earls is our best 13 after BOD (Cave being the other option) - let him play there. Zebo has been hugely impressive under the high ball this year and definitely has a better boot than Bowe so I can see the sense in it - there is certainly

10. Sexton as captain - I don't see him as captain if POC is playing - but really really don't understand why people would have an issue with him as captain - he seems to look for this responsibility and its a show of faith in a now senior player

9. Murray - predicatble selection and predictable rubbish being spouted by one eyed Leinster fans - he has his faults (as do all the options as discussed at length). No where near as bad as some on here make out and usual pre-match excuses for Sexton being rolled out. Probably would have gone for Reddan myself but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory this season

Backrow - Again some predictable responses about POM - again generally wrong. He has made an impact every time he has played for Ireland and is a good selection - particukraly at 6 with Henry at 7, which is deserved. Heaslip needs a big game - will probably be required to do far more carrying in this team

Ryan - anybody thinking that a team is picked purely on form is deluded - probably Irelands best forward last year and deserves to retain the jersey - has been a bit messed about this year so far at Munster because of injuries etc

Bench - wrong call for Kilcoyne to be ahead of Court imo if that is the call. I'd have Tuohy on the bench instead of McCarthy but good to see a change from DOC. Henderson would be a good call and better than McLaughlin. Jackson would be great on teh bench but its hard to see Kidney going there. McF is a no brainer

I haven't seen much criticism of POM's selection here. He isn't in sparkling form but has been playing 8 (Hugo0 on his Demented Mole blog has a very convincing argument about why he should be an 8 rather than 6. Only his performances this year and late last season argue a bit against it). It's not a clear cut call but it's certainly reasonable and probably the back row I'd go for.

I agree about Ryan being picked, he was Ireland's best lock last year not forward by the way and our locks were regularly bested by some indifferent opposition (but we were playing one injured and one not on great form lock for much of the time). Healy was our best forward.

Court should probably be ahead of Kilcoyne who has been hit and miss and I wouldn't like to rely on him too much. You're probably right about Tuohy. Henderson is a better idea than Locky.

Predictable about Conor Murray? What's predictable about Conor Murray is his bad passing and his inability to get dropped by Kidney. We don't want him carrying ball against the boks. We want the ball the f%~k out of there. Pronto. How provincially biased is that as a tactic?

[HenryFitz]

Aside from the 2nd Test aberration, the worst performers in the summer tests were numbers 11-15 inclusive. The half-backs were adequate to good. They should have taken on more ball themselves, but they weren't to blame for the, at times, shambolic defending and attacking that happened outside them. Let's hope the reshuffle leads to more coherence.

In the pack, McLaughlin and O'Mahony were rubbish in Hamilton, and Tuohy let a couple of games pass him by. The rest were fairly good, in general. O'Mahony looks to have benefitted from the injuries to Ferris and O'Brien, and Henderson's inexperience.

[Dave Cahill]

Aside from the 2nd Test aberration, the worst performers in the summer tests were numbers 11-15 inclusive.

If only there were a reason for that, complete shot in the dark here, no way that it could actually happen, not at all in any way shape or form, like say the backs not getting any coaching until one of the players got sick of the ridiculousness of the situation and decided to take it on himself and pull a plays from his domestic playbook before the second test then one of the other players having a mickey fit about it and running to the coach whinging who of course backed the purple faced cry baby so there was again no coaching before the third test - not to mention any names of course and naturally enough that could never happen.

[lummix]

Aside from the 2nd Test aberration, the worst performers in the summer tests were numbers 11-15 inclusive.

If only there were a reason for that, complete shot in the dark here, no way that it could actually happen, not at all in any way shape or form, like say the backs not getting any coaching until one of the players got sick of the ridiculousness of the situation and decided to take it on himself and pull a plays from his domestic playbook before the second test then one of the other players having a mickey fit about it and running to the coach whinging who of course backed the purple faced cry baby so there was again no coaching before the third test - not to mention any names of course and naturally enough that could never happen.

Did that really happen Dave, if it's got to that stage it's a disgrace. I'm guessing sexton for the moves and o gara having a fit. It's really hard to know what to hope for the upcoming games, if we win does kidney get a new contract I really don't want that, if we lose we may be 3rd seeds for the world cup I don't want this either.

[cormac]

If that is the team then its more positive than negative

15. This was always going to be a bit of a lottery - Zebo/Earls/Bowe - we need all three in the team and I still think that Earls is our best 13 after BOD (Cave being the other option) - let him play there. Zebo has been hugely impressive under the high ball this year and definitely has a better boot than Bowe so I can see the sense in it - there is certainly

10. Sexton as captain - I don't see him as captain if POC is playing - but really really don't understand why people would have an issue with him as captain - he seems to look for this responsibility and its a show of faith in a now senior player

9. Murray - predicatble selection and predictable rubbish being spouted by one eyed Leinster fans - he has his faults (as do all the options as discussed at length). No where near as bad as some on here make out and usual pre-match excuses for Sexton being rolled out. Probably would have gone for Reddan myself but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory this season

Backrow - Again some predictable responses about POM - again generally wrong. He has made an impact every time he has played for Ireland and is a good selection - particukraly at 6 with Henry at 7, which is deserved. Heaslip needs a big game - will probably be required to do far more carrying in this team

Ryan - anybody thinking that a team is picked purely on form is deluded - probably Irelands best forward last year and deserves to retain the jersey - has been a bit messed about this year so far at Munster because of injuries etc

Bench - wrong call for Kilcoyne to be ahead of Court imo if that is the call. I'd have Tuohy on the bench instead of McCarthy but good to see a change from DOC. Henderson would be a good call and better than McLaughlin. Jackson would be great on teh bench but its hard to see Kidney going there. McF is a no brainer

15. No problem with Zebo at full-back.

10. Sexton as captain is a bad choice for the same reason that ROG is a poor captain. Needs someone with a calmer head and who hasn't already got a thousand other things on their mind. If POC isn't captain, the best choice from that 15 is Heaslip.

9. Murray - it's not provincial bias to point out that Murray isn't playing well.

Back-row; I don't have a problem with POM at 6, but to claim he's made a positive impact every time he's played for Ireland is just wrong. He was miles off the pace in New Zealand (especially at but wasn't the only one.

Ryan - no issue with the selection.

Bench: Will be surprised if Kilcoyne, McCarthy and Jackson all feature on the bench. Don't get why DK would select McCarthy and Henderson, both of whom fulfill the same role. I'm not 100% convinced about Kilcoyne but these are the times to experiment so I wouldn't knock his selection ahead of Court. Ditto the selections of Henderson and Jackson ahead of McLoughlin and ROG. It's probably time for ROG to gracefully step aside (he's had a superb innings for Ireland) but I guess his ego won't let him yet.

[suisse]

if we lose we may be 3rd seeds for the world cup I don't want this either.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. To the people who support Declan Kidney through his reign as Ireland team coach, when he officially took over for the Autumn Internationals in 2008 (he wasn't in charge of the trip Down Under), Ireland were in the position of needing to beat Argentina to guarantee a top 8 place for the 2011 RWC in NZ. Nothing has changed. 4 years later, we are again in this position of needing to beat SA and/or Argentina, or hope results go our way should we lose both of them, in order to BARELY hang on to 2nd tier seeds. It wasn't Kidney's fault we were in that position in 2008, but it is now. We have not progressed AT ALL on the international stage.

That year, we lost 3-22 to NZ in Croke Park. Would we get that close this November?

This was the team lost to the All Blacks.

Dempsey (Leinster; Earls, Munster, 70); Bowe (Ospreys), O'Driscoll (Leinster, capt), Fitzgerald (Leinster; P Wallace, Ulster, 75), Kearney (Leinster); O'Gara (Munster), O'Leary (Munster; Reddan, Wasps, 68); Horan (Munster), R Best (Ulster; Flannery, Munster, 58), Hayes (Munster; Buckley, Munster, 77), O'Callaghan (Munster), O'Connell (Munster; Ferris, Ulster 62), Quinlan (Munster), D Wallace (Munster; Jennings, Leinster, 77), Heaslip (Leinster)

Just 3 members (Bowe, POC and Heaslip) of the starting XV will play on Saturday, and 2 more on the bench (Earls and Reddan) will be involved again in some capacity if the team above is right. BOD, Kearney, Best and maybe Luke would have been apart from injuries. The players may have changed, but Ireland in world positions hasn't. After 4 years.

[Golf Man]

To answer a couple of posts together

1. I do think that there is a one eyed view of Murray out there with some Leinster fans - his form is nowhere near as bad as being made out and the complaints about him generally don't actually stand up (Racing metro game aside) - it has just become a default position to complain about Murray (Similar to the way a lot of Munster fans complain about Heaslip - I'm harsh on Heaslip because I think he should be taking over the POC/BOD mantle and for a variety of reasons he isn't quite at that level - I'd still have him as one of the first names on the teamsheet though

2. I do think that POM gets similar treatment for some reason - yes he has been moved through the ranks relatively quickly but I think this is a good thing - people can tend to focus in on his temperament - this just doesn't stand up - how often does he give away penalties and get yellow carded?

3. 433 - completely right on Healy

4. Dave Cahill - very easy to claim that ROG is at the centre of these hissy fits - personally I just don't believe it and think its another myth that out there that gets spouted around without any basis- he is a bit of a bollix (no harm at all in that btw)

5. I don't have a problem with Heaslip as captain - I'd be suprised if POC isn't if he is fit but Heaslip or Sexton is fine by me

6. Cormac - Problem with the lock/backrow on the bench is basically just personnel (or rather the lack of) - DOC/Tuohy/McCarthy are the options in the second row, McL/Henderson are the options in the back row (allowing for the fact that Muldoon and Jennings are not in contention - correctly imo) -= these are all pretty similar players who have played the 4/5/6 role to varying extents. I don't think any of the other fit back rows in teh country are realistic options. Think it would in incredibly harsh on Court not to get a bench spot in a 23 man squad - put Kilcoyne in against Fiji

7. Suisse - maybe our current standing is just our natural position - btw we did progress since 2008, just have regressed - DK should have gone after the world cup but understandable that he didn't if you are actually objective about it