Lukey Fitz

[blockhead]

The times they are a changin... As Leinster fans we are going to have to get used to players leaving us. We are producing more players than we can give game time to. This issue is going to become more acute over the next few years. Where should these players go? If we have a good a coaching/development structure in this country then they should stay in Ireland as much as possible.
Munster appear to have 2 choices;
a. Recruit from other Irish provinces, i.e. Leinster.
b. Become exempt from IRFU foreign player policy, ala Connacht.

If it was done right, Munster could prove a very productive breeding ground for future Leinster players.

[[Jackass]]

As always, a dictionary-perfect definition of irony. I see you've nothing to add to your earlier conspiracy theory since it has been dismissed by 2 long-term/well-established posters above? Anyway, as you were.

Who and what are you talking about? You want me to respond to posts in the thread from "two long term/well established posters above", please quote these "dismissals" you're talking about and how about you actually have something to contribute before posting. Ironic indeed.

[simonokeeffe]

If we were losing players for all the same reason i would be worried more so (like when all the young players got the same hip injury)

but

J10 IRFU balls up negotiations
HVDM IRFU NIQ policy
Hagan lack of gametime/guys parachuted in ahead of him
Browne surplus
Carr lost his mojo
Conway wouldnt fight for his place/loss of confidence
Nacewa family issues
T Sexton 4th choice/weather/loser women

Staying TBC (2 biggest ones IMO)
BOD old age
Leo old age

IMO not all doom and gloom/we've some degree of prep/lots of internal promotions

Isa has missed half this season
Luke only played 5 games this season
Hagan arguably 3rd choice
Sexton; Madigan & Gopperth
HVDM not first choice and depth there
Carr/Conway not first choice and young (albeit inexperienced) talent behind them

team as of September 2014 will be very different to that of 2013 but would only panic if next season goes poorly for the replacements

[suisse]

If we were losing players for all the same reason i would be worried more so (like when all the young players got the same hip injury)

but

J10 IRFU balls up negotiations
HVDM IRFU NIQ policy
Hagan lack of gametime/guys parachuted in ahead of him
Browne surplus
Carr lost his mojo
Conway wouldnt fight for his place/loss of confidence
Nacewa family issues
T Sexton 4th choice/weather/loser women

Staying TBC (2 biggest ones IMO)
BOD old age
Leo old age

IMO not all doom and gloom/we've some degree of prep/lots of internal promotions

Isa has missed half this season
Luke only played 5 games this season
Hagan arguably 3rd choice
Sexton; Madigan & Gopperth
HVDM not first choice and depth there
Carr/Conway not first choice and young (albeit inexperienced) talent behind them

team as of September 2014 will be very different to that of 2013 but would only panic if next season goes poorly for the replacements

Yeah but you're talking about over 200 international caps, multiple HEC winners, and probably around 1000 Leinster caps between that group you just named there. It is fine saying "he's injured" and "he's a back up" but the back up and sometimes injured guy have a wealth of experience playing League and Cup games.

Who do we bring in instead? So far one signing. Can we realistically expect some Academy guy with 10 B&I Cup games to suddenly be as capable as Fionn Carr, one of the most prolific try scorers in League history?

[simonokeeffe]

If any or even all of BOD/Leo/Luke were to go yeah I'd agree its a massive brain drain, not saying its a positive clearout but no call to panic yet

Browne, Hagan, Conway, Carr, T Sexton and arguably HVDM all squad players, Madigan stepping up to the plate while Johnny is injured and Goppeth very experienced and competent backup coming in

Carr has scored 2 tries (home spankings of Dragons and Blues) from 15 appearances (11 + 4) this season which puts him below Madigan (7), Cronin, McFadden (4) Healy, Jennings, Macken, Murphy, DK (3)

McCarthy and Moore for Browne and Hagan an improvement IMO
T Sexton neglible in any event
If Conway doesnt want to fight academy wingers and Carr for gametime good luck to him
Carr lost his mojo
Isa is a hole but replacement yet to be announced, maybe another NIQ wing on top of that

[suisse]

Browne, Hagan, Conway, Carr, T Sexton and arguably HVDM all squad players, Madigan stepping up to the plate while Johnny is injured and Goppeth very experienced and competent backup coming in

Browne: 100 caps for Connacht and Leinster, and more (don't know how many) for Northampton and Brive.
Hagan: 85 aps for Connacht and Leinster.
Conway: 33 Leinster caps
Carr: 109 caps for Connacht and Leinster
HVDM: 4 SA Caps, 80 Leinster caps, 52 Super Rugby caps (Sharks and Lions), 40 CC caps

These guys may be squad players, but that is a huge amount of experience to be losing in such a short period of time. Carr for "game time" and Conway not willing to "fight" is still two good squad players gone. These are the standard of player we need when the internationals are away. Who do we replace them with?

Then you have Sexton (104 Leinster, 36 Ireland), Nacewa (117 Leinster caps) and maybe 1, 2 or all of Fitzgerald, Cullen and BOD.

I seriously wonder how competitive we can be next season in September, November and around the 6 Nations.

Agree that Gopperth is a good signing, and that McCarthy is an improvement on Browne. But Mike be missing for those 4 months I mentioned earlier. That's when you need a Browne. McF (possibly), Rob Kearney, Luke etc too, that's where you need Carr, Conway and Nacewa.

I am very worried. Maybe I'm alone but we gotta get more experience or we could be in real trouble.

[Mauler]

The team which played v Dragons to win the Magners League on 03-05-08 - less than 5 years ago was:
15 Girv
14 Shaggy
13 BOD
12 Dr Phil
11 R Kearney
10 Sexton
9 Whits
1 Ollie
2 Banjo
3 Stan
4 T Hogan
5 Mal
6 Jenno
7 Gleese
8 Heislip
10/15 of that starting 15 have left and of the 7 replacements that day only Luke is still here. It’s the nature of professional rugby teams that there is an enormous change of personnel every couple of seasons. Players come and players go. Some of the hysterical ranting on here have been quite embarrassing and cringe worthy recently.

[suisse]

Yes there's nothing you can do about retirements and injuries but are you not surprised by the rather high number of experienced players leaving at the same time? Forgetting the likes of BOD, Cullen (if true) and Nacewa, I mean our November team. I know the squad hasn't been finalized yet and its still only March, but just two confirmed signings and one of those will be on Ireland duty.

Our HEC team will be very strong next season. Imho, we're looking ar bit thin for the League. Hopefully Luke and Cullen stay - BOD I think is a bit different - and we pick up some good, experiences players in the summer.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

This isn't really the thread for this but as regards Suisse' and Simon's conversation, my big worry is that we were in a bit of trouble already as regards the quality of our squad before guys started leaving. Not that we had a bad side but we had succession problems in the second row and centre that were relatively easy to fix but now we have to plug gaps all over the place.

The second row looks fine for next season even if Leo does retire but we've done nothing about the centres thus far. Now we're also very light at prop, scrumhalf (I've every faith in Cooney and McGrath but that doesn't change the fact that Boss and Reddan haven't been great this year and obviously Reddan has a serious injury), worse off at outhalf, and regardless of whether Fitz stays or not we're going to need at least two back three players.

I've no doubt that we'll sign some quality players but just don't think we'll be able to sign as many as we need to plug all those gaps. I'm worried.

[fourthirtythree]

I don't think it's reasonable to think that all those holes could be plugged in one season.

While we may be relatively okay at second row I would hate Cullen to retire, his second half of the season has been excellent. Props are a worry from a point where we were going to have to lose one or two due to overstocking. Our back row is fine. Scrum half... well this had to happen. Outhalf: Madigan would have had to leave for the sake of Ireland if Jonny didn't. He's different from Jonny, and hopefully like Jonny when he takes over as our starting outhalf he will have a league medal that he won in his pocket.

Outside backs are a problem as our centre succession is a problem anyway and nothing much changed. McFadden rarely plays 12 and O'Malley rarely plays. Luke never plays 13. Carr had to move because he had a bad season. If Conway doesn't want his place here he really is no loss. Luke may or may not be a loss. He hasn't, lets face it, done much for us in the past three years. I hope he gets past that but that's a gamble.
Isa is the big change then. And losing him is a huge problem. But then, it's a huge problem compared to last year rather than this. He's had an injury disrupted poor season. He arrived at the start unfit and has had a couple of games (Ospreys away IIRC) where he looked like himself that's all

[Niftof9]

He is gone. Apparently asked Joe could he play centre after a certain retirement and it could not be guaranteed so hence the Munster move. My source is within the camp. He isn't a winger unfortunately and I think he knows this, so can you really blame him? Some of the talk about his loyalty is way off.

[Keith]

Marcelo Bosch is leaving Biarritz but looks like he's joining Saracens.

[suisse]

We were really unlucky with injuries but one of the reasons we went out of Europe was we didn't score enough in the earlier games, missing our front liners. The back to back with clermont exposed more issues with some of our squad. Now, a lot of the guys who stepped up then won't be there next season so if things get dodgy injury wise the same as this, who do we turn, especially out wide? Carr, Conway and Isa definitely gone, not sure about Fitzgerald or BOD. how many signings can we make to cover their departures and their experience?

[johng]

Marcelo Bosch is leaving Biarritz but looks like he's joining Saracens.

What an aptly named player for Sarries.

[Mickado]

Great minds John...

[fourthirtythree]

We were really unlucky with injuries but one of the reasons we went out of Europe was we didn't score enough in the earlier games, missing our front liners. The back to back with clermont exposed more issues with some of our squad. Now, a lot of the guys who stepped up then won't be there next season so if things get dodgy injury wise the same as this, who do we turn, especially out wide? Carr, Conway and Isa definitely gone, not sure about Fitzgerald or BOD. how many signings can we make to cover their departures and their experience?

Of those only Isa is a loss for our early season. And not even that much at the end of last year.
BOD and Luke weren't playing, Carr and Conway were but weren't any good. Isa was fat.

Our backup players were not good enough against Exeter and Scarlets and on top of that we had no fullback (Rob and Dave and Luke injured, Isa played wing - poorly) and no 13 (BOD and Luke and EOM injured). We aren't any worse than that situation.

[johng]

Great minds John...

If his daughter married Ismail Merchant's son.....and they had a son with a double barrelled surname.........

Sarries would probably have to sign him at his christening.

[nopeare]

Was having a look through the Super 15 teams to see if there were any Irish on the books found one. Declan O'Donnell who is mixed Maori-Irish decent. Don't know anything of him, do any of you? he also played 7's for NZ would that stop him being IQ? could be interesting to have a go he is contracted with the chiefs Highlanders but was dropped from their squad for this season needed a shoulder op in January.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declan_O%27Donnell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK_WvOPUNoY

[Mickado]

You’ve taken the long road to it, but that’s good punning. No two ways about it.

Pints pre-match?

[Kinger83]

He is gone. Apparently asked Joe could he play centre after a certain retirement and it could not be guaranteed so hence the Munster move. My source is within the camp. He isn't a winger unfortunately and I think he knows this, so can you really blame him? Some of the talk about his loyalty is way off.

Why does he suddenly want to play center? I remember last season Joe asked him to play at 12 during the World Cup and he wasn't too keen at first but did a good job there. Prior to that he wanted to play full-back and got his chance in the 6 nations. Seems odd..