Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

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cormac
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Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by cormac »

One team seems to have massively benefitted from the change to the conferences.

https://www.pro14rugby.org/2019/06/17/c ... 4-seasons/

Conference A

Glasgow, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys, Dragons, Zebre, Cheetahs.

Conference B

Edinburgh, Munster, Connacht, Cardiff Blues, Scarlets, Benetton, Southern Kings.

We now have Glasgow instead of Edinburgh, Zebre instead of Benetton, Ospreys instead of Scarlets and Cheetahs instead of Kings.
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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by wixfjord »

They’re fairly even enough. Don’t see much issue there. Ours is probably more top heavy but the other one is a bit more even throughout.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by neill_m »

wixfjord wrote:They’re fairly even enough. Don’t see much issue there. Ours is probably more top heavy but the other one is a bit more even throughout.
Indeed, in B everyone bar the Kings will think they have a chance of making Top 3. A looks like Leinster, Glasgow and Ulster/Ospreys, maybe Cheetahs.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by mauler72 »

We'll have a bit more competition for the top slot in the Conference, and the home Semi, if nothing else.

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bails
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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by bails »

I have seen some stupid things in my life but can somebody explain to me how you can win your Conference for two years in a row, then win the Competition for two years in a row and be seeded 3 for the following year's competition.

I know PRO14 say they amalgamate the conferences and go on total points, but that is just plain stupid.
How can both conference winners be seeded in the same group, how can the two finalists be seeded in the same group.

PRO 14 is showing itself to be incredibly stupid.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by hugonaut »

bails wrote:I have seen some stupid things in my life but can somebody explain to me how you can win your Conference for two years in a row, then win the Competition for two years in a row and be seeded 3 for the following year's competition.

I know PRO14 say they amalgamate the conferences and go on total points, but that is just plain stupid.
How can both conference winners be seeded in the same group, how can the two finalists be seeded in the same group.

PRO 14 is showing itself to be incredibly stupid.
Well, it's a relatively complicated system to work out, compared to the other leagues. They've put primacy on country of origin. That the next step down is points on the overall log is questionable, as it is never referred to officially during the season. But they have to find someway to split the teams that is based on a logic. I agree that the two conference winners [and selfsame teams being finalists] being in the same conference seems absurd.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by mildlyinterested »

should make home semi finals a bit harder to get over the next two seasons.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by Dave Cahill »

They have to rank it somehow and rank it consistently, so basing it over the regular season where everyone plays the same number of games makes sense. Including rounds where some teams may play one or two or three extra games and other teams don't play at all just doesn't give any consistency. If you're going to use a conference system or if you're going to use playoffs or if you're going to use both you don't have any choice.

Ultimately, if you want a better seeding, garner more points.
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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by OTT »

I am alright with how they did it, I just don't like that it seems to have been decided post hoc.

They could have had clarification at the start of last season but it appears they were waiting to see how the cards would fall and if you were being a bit conspiratorial the cards have fallen nicely for someone to get their home semi which will help their finances.
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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

OTT wrote:I am alright with how they did it, I just don't like that it seems to have been decided post hoc.

They could have had clarification at the start of last season but it appears they were waiting to see how the cards would fall and if you were being a bit conspiratorial the cards have fallen nicely for someone to get their home semi which will help their finances.
Wasn't there talk of other teams joining this season? I'm guessing that fell through so they're doing things on the hoof a bit and have decided to ringfence it/provide certainty for two seasons. Wouldn't be at all surprised if there are major changes again after that.

I really hate this format. Perhaps I'm being selfish because Leinster are so likely to get a top two finish every season but I just don't give a toss about the conference system and still can't bring myself to care about the SA teams in the slightest. I fear it'll keep expanding though.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by cormac »

Dave Cahill wrote:They have to rank it somehow and rank it consistently, so basing it over the regular season where everyone plays the same number of games makes sense. Including rounds where some teams may play one or two or three extra games and other teams don't play at all just doesn't give any consistency. If you're going to use a conference system or if you're going to use playoffs or if you're going to use both you don't have any choice.

Ultimately, if you want a better seeding, garner more points.
They might play the same number of games but they're not all facing the same fixture list. If the play-offs are good enough to seed the teams for European competition I'm at a loss as to why they don't use them to divvy up the conferences the same way, even allowing for an even split of teams from the same country.
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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by Jonny tight lips »

There’s never gonna be a perfect way to reorganize it that everyone will like but the least they should of done is told people what the process would be so they could decide to be mire competitive in any perceived dead rubbers. The conference looks fine in fairness.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by Dave Cahill »

cormac wrote:
They might play the same number of games but they're not all facing the same fixture list. If the play-offs are good enough to seed the teams for European competition I'm at a loss as to why they don't use them to divvy up the conferences the same way, even allowing for an even split of teams from the same country.
The playoffs only contain six teams who might play between one and three games. You can't seed an entire 14 team 21 game competition based on that. Also, knockout rugby can throw-up fluke results - considerably less likely over a 21 game league season - which could seriously skew the following years competition. Europe is only concerned with ranking the 6/7 qualified teams, it has no interest, obviously, in the 7/8 teams that don't qualify - but even within that they use league position to determine the ranking of teams who lose at the same semi-final/quarter-final stage.
Jonny tight lips wrote:There’s never gonna be a perfect way to reorganize it that everyone will like but the least they should of done is told people what the process would be so they could decide to be mire competitive in any perceived dead rubbers. The conference looks fine in fairness.
I was told that the conferences were being reset in January this year, so if the likes of me knew and it wasn't just a lucky speculative guess...
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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by Jonny tight lips »

Dave Cahill wrote:
cormac wrote:
They might play the same number of games but they're not all facing the same fixture list. If the play-offs are good enough to seed the teams for European competition I'm at a loss as to why they don't use them to divvy up the conferences the same way, even allowing for an even split of teams from the same country.
The playoffs only contain six teams who might play between one and three games. You can't seed an entire 14 team 21 game competition based on that. Also, knockout rugby can throw-up fluke results - considerably less likely over a 21 game league season - which could seriously skew the following years competition. Europe is only concerned with ranking the 6/7 qualified teams, it has no interest, obviously, in the 7/8 teams that don't qualify - but even within that they use league position to determine the ranking of teams who lose at the same semi-final/quarter-final stage.
Jonny tight lips wrote:There’s never gonna be a perfect way to reorganize it that everyone will like but the least they should of done is told people what the process would be so they could decide to be mire competitive in any perceived dead rubbers. The conference looks fine in fairness.
I was told that the conferences were being reset in January this year, so if the likes of me knew and it wasn't just a lucky speculative guess...
Well I don’t think it was known how they were gonna reset the conferences which is what I was suggesting should be made know to the participants. As for your reply saying knockout rugby can throw up fluke results, yes that is true but taking “dead rubbers” into account when calculating shadings can also throw up inaccurate seedings. If they are gonna reset the conferences why not do it this way every year and the teams will know this so can compete accordingly. I recognize there will always be teething problems but we have had this system for two years and the team who won the whole thing two years in a row, who beat a team twice in a row in the semis for an overall head to head of 5-1 are behind that team.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by rooster »

Correct about the changes Dave being mentioned earlier in the year, on that basis it was just a swap of Ospreys and Scarlets

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by johng »

Jonny tight lips wrote: If they are gonna reset the conferences why not do it this way every year and the teams will know this so can compete accordingly..
Because under the current format teams play 11 home games one season and 10 the next or Visa versa.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by Jonny tight lips »

rooster wrote:Correct about the changes Dave being mentioned earlier in the year, on that basis it was just a swap of Ospreys and Scarlets
But was it mentioned how they were gonna be reset, that’s what I was getting at.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by bails »

You can talk around how they seed the teams and why they seed as they do, but it is all complete baloney !!!!!

Any competition which seeds a team, that has won both its conference and the overall competition for the two previous seasons, at 3rd Seed is leaving itself open to ridicule.
At a time when the PRO14 is trying to compete for Revenues against other more moneyed European leagues, this makes it look like a mickey mouse league.

They can draw the teams from a hat for the Conferences as far as I care, but when they start attempting to justify their seeding system, it makes it look mickey mouse.

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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by Jonny tight lips »

bails wrote:You can talk around how they seed the teams and why they seed as they do, but it is all complete baloney !!!!!

Any competition which seeds a team, that has won both its conference and the overall competition for the two previous seasons, at 3rd Seed is leaving itself open to ridicule.
At a time when the PRO14 is trying to compete for Revenues against other more moneyed European leagues, this makes it look like a mickey mouse league.

They can draw the teams from a hat for the Conferences as far as I care, but when they start attempting to justify their seeding system, it makes it look mickey mouse.
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Re: Pro14 Conferences 2019/20 and 2020/21

Post by leinsterforever »

To play devil's advocate, I suppose you could argue that the initial draw two seasons ago biased the conference results over the two years. If Munster didn't have Glasgow in their conference, would they have been more likely to top it and earn a home semi and conseque ntly a better chance of winning it?

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