Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[tomthefan]

Viagra Stadium: for the team that can't get past a semi

TMI there flip!

It's easy when your team always flops at the big occasions

Fair dues

[Barry]

excerpt from article in today's Examiner :-

Negotiations to play a ground-breaking Guinness PRO14 rugby clash between Munster and Leinster at Páirc Ui Chaoimh this Christmas are at an advanced though delicate stage, Examiner Sport understands.

The revamped headquarters of Cork GAA is the preferred option among key parties in the discussions to host the glamour clash of the provincial giants on Saturday, December 28, though certain commercial issues remain to be ironed out
Though Cork GAA are not active participants in the discussions, it would reap a healthy financial reward from the rugby game at the Páirc, said to total in the region of €300,000. Cork GAA is heavily indebted in the wake of the Páirc Ui Chaoimh redevelopment, which is likely to cost around €95m.

If successful, the game may open up the possibility of further lucrative games such as knock-out encounters in the Heineken Champions Cup.

Teams involved in the latter stages of European competition may nominate grounds - though not their own - for home semi-finals within their own country.

For Munster Rugby, Cork would be more convenient for their supporters than Dublin. The capacity of Páirc Ui Chaoimh stands at 45,000.

[OTT]

Help pay off the Thomond debt by moving the big games to Páirc Ui Chaoimh and all the other ones to Musgrave should do it

[blockhead]

Interesting.
Munster would have to make a fair wedge from that game to exceed the 26K+ they would have in TP. Potential Heino semis in a GAA ground instead of the Aviva? Can't see the IRFU agreeing to that.
The only argument Munster would have is that they are trying to re-connect with the people of Cork after moving everything to Limerick.
Would make a great one off though.

[The Doc]

Interesting.
Potential Heino semis in a GAA ground instead of the Aviva? Can't see the IRFU agreeing to that.

I'd say it's QF's they mean

[johng]

Nevermind

[Dave Cahill]

Its an interesting proposal, but there are a number of circles that would have to be squared.

The main one is financial. Would the increased capacity lead to a sufficiently increased attendance that would generate enough of an increase in revenue to cover the increase in costs. How will the rights-holding stakeholders in Thomond Park be accommodated in PUC.

The second one is that increased attendance. Where does it come from. One would assume that the idea is that cork supporters who might not make the famously troublesome trip to Limerick over Christmas would make up the bulk of it, and if this is anything more than a kite being flown one would presume that Munster have done some research that tells them that the increase in 'local' numbers is there and will offset the number of Limerick supporters who might not make the equally troublesome reverse trip.

Thirdly, there are a number of 'political' considerations. The IRFU, to all intents and purposes, own Thomond Park. It is a stadium carrying a certain amount of debt. The GAA own PUC. It is a stadium carrying a certain amount of debt. Are the IRFU going to help pay off a rival's debt at the price of their own? That depends on the financials. Then there is the Cork County Board - in an organisation that is culturally traditional, the Cork County Board are positively antediluvian

[blockhead]

IT has been reported that Garrett Tubridy, younger brother of RTE TV and radio star Ryan, has been appointed as acting Head of Commercial and Marketing at Munster Rugby.
Sport for Business are reporting that Tubrudy has been appointed to replace Doug Howlett in an acting role following the former Munster and All-Black star's return to New Zealand this summer.
Tubridy was appointed by the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) as tournament director for the Women’s Rugby World Cup (WRWC) which will be played in Dublin and Belfast in 2017
Prior to that, he had been at the Heineken Cup for ten years working alongside Diarmaid Murphy, now at the GAA and Derek McGrath.

I know they're a bit behind the times down in deepset, darkest Munster but bloody hell.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I hate when rugby/soccer is played at a GAA ground, the size difference just doesn't work IMO. I only went to one of the games in Croker and it was a dreadful experience tbh, and I felt the same about watching on TV.

[Dave Cahill]

I hate when rugby/soccer is played at a GAA ground, the size difference just doesn't work IMO. I only went to one of the games in Croker and it was a dreadful experience tbh, and I felt the same about watching on TV.

It was pretty weird looking in Croker alright, but the pitch size in PUC is quite a bit smaller than that in Croke Park (144 x 88 vs 165 x 98) - the maximum playing area size in Rugby is 144 x 70 so it wouldn't be so stark

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Ah okay, thought it was a terrible fit for the Liam Miller match last year but fair enough that sounds like it could be alright.

[wixfjord]

The main one is financial. Would the increased capacity lead to a sufficiently increased attendance that would generate enough of an increase in revenue to cover the increase in costs. How will the rights-holding stakeholders in Thomond Park be accommodated in PUC.

Aye that's surely the biggest hurdle. Why move a lucrative game from a stadium you need to pay off to a stadium you need to pay to use? On paper doesn't make massive sense to me unless the extra 15-20k in PUC is incremental revenue for Munster?

I wonder is this a bit of Cork GAA flag flying to try position itself as a possible 'neutral QF venue'?

[Ruckedtobits]

The main one is financial. Would the increased capacity lead to a sufficiently increased attendance that would generate enough of an increase in revenue to cover the increase in costs. How will the rights-holding stakeholders in Thomond Park be accommodated in PUC.

Aye that's surely the biggest hurdle. Why move a lucrative game from a stadium you need to pay off to a stadium you need to pay to use? On paper doesn't make massive sense to me unless the extra 15-20k in PUC is incremental revenue for Munster?

I wonder is this a bit of Cork GAA flag flying to try position itself as a possible 'neutral QF venue'?

Yup. The ould 'anywhere but Dublin' syndrome is alive and well. Rugby fans funding GAA repayments is pure madness. If Aviva owners charge Leinster 400k for use of a Stadium which IRFU partially owns, what premium would GAA charge for PUC?

[ronk]

It would all depend on how hungry the GAA is. They could easily price themselves out.

A HC semi probably doesnt make sense except as 2 fingers to IRFU/Dublin. A match against a touring side could happen but not easily this year.

With season tickets its already late for a game this year.

If they had been serious about looking for a sustainable way to expand in Cork they'd have been looking to swap several Musgrave games to Thomond in return for 1 big game in Cork. Otherwise its still about Cork eating Limerick or Limerick eating Cork. Or both eating Dublin.

[hugonaut]

Its an interesting proposal, but there are a number of circles that would have to be squared.

The main one is financial. Would the increased capacity lead to a sufficiently increased attendance that would generate enough of an increase in revenue to cover the increase in costs. How will the rights-holding stakeholders in Thomond Park be accommodated in PUC.

The second one is that increased attendance. Where does it come from. One would assume that the idea is that cork supporters who might not make the famously troublesome trip to Limerick over Christmas would make up the bulk of it, and if this is anything more than a kite being flown one would presume that Munster have done some research that tells them that the increase in 'local' numbers is there and will offset the number of Limerick supporters who might not make the equally troublesome reverse trip.

Thirdly, there are a number of 'political' considerations. The IRFU, to all intents and purposes, own Thomond Park. It is a stadium carrying a certain amount of debt. The GAA own PUC. It is a stadium carrying a certain amount of debt. Are the IRFU going to help pay off a rival's debt at the price of their own? That depends on the financials. Then there is the Cork County Board - in an organisation that is culturally traditional, the Cork County Board are positively antediluvian

If the game goes ahead, PUC sells out, the Munster branch cover the costs of renting it and turn a profit that can be put into paying off the debt, it'd seem like a great result, except that they'll have put a big dent in Thomond's reputation.

There'd be a significantly larger number of voices shouting for 'the biggest games' to be played in PUC. There's not much call for it at the moment, but once there's precedent for it, that call will go from a whisper to a shout. Then Thomond becomes less valuable, because Munster only come anywhere near to filling it for 'the biggest games'.

So if you're not going to play 'the biggest games' there, and you don't fill it at any other stage, it becomes even more of a burden. The chance of getting good money for any potential naming rights decreases, the reputation as 'the home of Munster Rugby' is damaged, and a ten-year old stadium is made to look outdated and small by a one-year old stadium.

It's an idea worth discussing, but there are lots of reasonable arguments against it.

[wixfjord]

Its an interesting proposal, but there are a number of circles that would have to be squared.

The main one is financial. Would the increased capacity lead to a sufficiently increased attendance that would generate enough of an increase in revenue to cover the increase in costs. How will the rights-holding stakeholders in Thomond Park be accommodated in PUC.

The second one is that increased attendance. Where does it come from. One would assume that the idea is that cork supporters who might not make the famously troublesome trip to Limerick over Christmas would make up the bulk of it, and if this is anything more than a kite being flown one would presume that Munster have done some research that tells them that the increase in 'local' numbers is there and will offset the number of Limerick supporters who might not make the equally troublesome reverse trip.

Thirdly, there are a number of 'political' considerations. The IRFU, to all intents and purposes, own Thomond Park. It is a stadium carrying a certain amount of debt. The GAA own PUC. It is a stadium carrying a certain amount of debt. Are the IRFU going to help pay off a rival's debt at the price of their own? That depends on the financials. Then there is the Cork County Board - in an organisation that is culturally traditional, the Cork County Board are positively antediluvian

If the game goes ahead, PUC sells out, the Munster branch cover the costs of renting it and turn a profit that can be put into paying off the debt, it'd seem like a great result, except that they'll have put a big dent in Thomond's reputation.

There'd be a significantly larger number of voices shouting for 'the biggest games' to be played in PUC. There's not much call for it at the moment, but once there's precedent for it, that call will go from a whisper to a shout. Then Thomond becomes less valuable, because Munster only come anywhere near to filling it for 'the biggest games'.

So if you're not going to play 'the biggest games' there, and you don't fill it at any other stage, it becomes even more of a burden. The chance of getting good money for any potential naming rights decreases, the reputation as 'the home of Munster Rugby' is damaged, and a ten-year old stadium is made to look outdated and small by a one-year old stadium.

It's an idea worth discussing, but there are lots of reasonable arguments against it.

Some good points in there Hugo.

But the one thing PUC won't do is make another stadium feel dated. It's ridiculous for a 'new' stadium. Bars/food concessions didn't even take cards when I was down there.

I definitely didn't find the awe factor that you normally get when you walk into a new stadium either.

[ronk]

The IRFU know a fair bit about scenarios like this because of us and the Aviva games. The overall effect is positive but there's an element of taking occasional fans from normal games and attracting them to the marquee fixture. For Aviva, there's the positive experience of the bigger fixture (hopefully bringing in more than it takes) and the larger ticket price.

Both conditions and commercially acceptable terms would need to be met for this to be a runner.

It's possible but not guaranteed. If this doesn't both bring in more fans and make more money for the IRFU then it's a counterproductive and not worth the risk.

[Dave Cahill]

The IRFU know a fair bit about scenarios like this because of us and the Aviva games. The overall effect is positive but there's an element of taking occasional fans from normal games and attracting them to the marquee fixture. For Aviva, there's the positive experience of the bigger fixture (hopefully bringing in more than it takes) and the larger ticket price.

Both conditions and commercially acceptable terms would need to be met for this to be a runner.

It's possible but not guaranteed. If this doesn't both bring in more fans and make more money for the IRFU then it's a counterproductive and not worth the risk.

And of course the Aviva is owned by the Union - theres a big difference between Fanta buying something from Sprite and buying it from 7-Up!

[ronk]

Aviva is incrementally a much more compelling deal. There would have been RDS rent for the extra 2 games and there's no concession income.

It gets more than double as many people for a higher overall price.

Moving games from Thomond wouldn't make nearly as much sense, commercially or sportingly.

Moving games from Irish Independent Park (while swapping the marquee fixture) could possible make sense.

The Munster branch left Cork rugby behind a bit, it wouldn't be at all helpful to the GAA to reestablish strong local competition.

[Dave Cahill]

The Munster branch left Cork rugby behind a bit, it wouldn't be at all helpful to the GAA to reestablish strong local competition.

Not entirely sure that thats the case - more that 'official' Cork was not helpful to Munster Rugby. They were decidedly unhelpful over the years when MR were trying to get Musgrave Park developed for example.