Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

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hugonaut
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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by hugonaut »

Pilotman123 wrote: That’s so true, farmers are genitcally big and don’t even go gym but they’re still bigger than someone who goes gym all the time, culchie farmer rugby players are naturally bigger
FACT.

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by blockhead »

culchie farmer rugby players :lol: Brilliant! Are they subsidised by Europe?
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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by Morf »

blockhead wrote:culchie farmer rugby players :lol: Brilliant! Are they subsidised by Europe?
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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by the spoofer »

Somebody better tell these lads that the Irish national team relies on 4 squads.

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by Pilotman123 »

the spoofer wrote:Somebody better tell these lads that the Irish national team relies on 4 squads.
It basically relies on St Michael’s

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by Dexter »

Pilotman123 wrote:
the spoofer wrote:Somebody better tell these lads that the Irish national team relies on 4 squads.
It basically relies on St Michael’s
And the odd culchie farmer rugby player too?...
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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by riocard911 »

Pilotman123 wrote:
the spoofer wrote:Somebody better tell these lads that the Irish national team relies on 4 squads.
It basically relies on St Michael’s
Maybe that's the reason Ireland have never won a quarter-final match at the RWC since its inception in 1987.....

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by joooooe »

A couple of people wrote above that there's nothing wrong with the current school system as a means of producing future professionals for Leinster and Ireland. Although it is true that it has proven fruitful it is evident to any neutral observer that it is a daft system for producing professionals.

From the age of 15 these lads might play 1 meaningful match before they are 18. Think on that for a moment. I appreciate that there is a lot of history and prestige in the schools cups but would it hurt so much to (for example) have a group phase at the start?

As to the question posed in the title of this thread, there is currently an over reliance on these 2 schools, but that is not because other schools aren't being looked at, these 2 schools are simply better at coaching kids in readiness for the professional game; they arent selectively admitting 12 year olds based on the likelihood of them winning a schools cup for the school; they are taking what lads they have and coaching them.

We have also been fortunate that these schools haven't been drawn to play each other in the first round for a while. If that were the case a whole year of players in one school would play one meaningful match in the year...which circles back to my first point.

Finally, it's not like Leinster are ignoring this. Take Jordan Larmour and Andrew Porter, for example. They went to a traditionally non-rugby school (St Andrew's having won the last of their 4 titles in 1922) but were identified early by Leinster and brought into the system while still in school (the sub-sub-academy, as I've heard this talent pathway called). But as pointed out by another poster above it is hard to compete on the basis of time with schools in this regard.

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by TrapperChamonix »

joooooe wrote: Finally, it's not like Leinster are ignoring this. Take Jordan Larmour and Andrew Porter, for example. They went to a traditionally non-rugby school (St Andrew's having won the last of their 4 titles in 1922)..........................
Andrews ARE a traditional rugby school.
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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by Pilotman123 »

joooooe wrote:A couple of people wrote above that there's nothing wrong with the current school system as a means of producing future professionals for Leinster and Ireland. Although it is true that it has proven fruitful it is evident to any neutral observer that it is a daft system for producing professionals.

From the age of 15 these lads might play 1 meaningful match before they are 18. Think on that for a moment. I appreciate that there is a lot of history and prestige in the schools cups but would it hurt so much to (for example) have a group phase at the start?

As to the question posed in the title of this thread, there is currently an over reliance on these 2 schools, but that is not because other schools aren't being looked at, these 2 schools are simply better at coaching kids in readiness for the professional game; they arent selectively admitting 12 year olds based on the likelihood of them winning a schools cup for the school; they are taking what lads they have and coaching them.

We have also been fortunate that these schools haven't been drawn to play each other in the first round for a while. If that were the case a whole year of players in one school would play one meaningful match in the year...which circles back to my first point.

Finally, it's not like Leinster are ignoring this. Take Jordan Larmour and Andrew Porter, for example. They went to a traditionally non-rugby school (St Andrew's having won the last of their 4 titles in 1922) but were identified early by Leinster and brought into the system while still in school (the sub-sub-academy, as I've heard this talent pathway called). But as pointed out by another poster above it is hard to compete on the basis of time with schools in this regard.
What makes schools cup so special is that it’s knock out and you’ve been training all year for that game and if you lose it’s your last game for the school (if you’re in 6th year), that’s what makes schools cup so special and why the atmosphere is so great aswell and the whole school go to it because it’s knock out

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by Pilotman123 »

joooooe wrote:A couple of people wrote above that there's nothing wrong with the current school system as a means of producing future professionals for Leinster and Ireland. Although it is true that it has proven fruitful it is evident to any neutral observer that it is a daft system for producing professionals.

From the age of 15 these lads might play 1 meaningful match before they are 18. Think on that for a moment. I appreciate that there is a lot of history and prestige in the schools cups but would it hurt so much to (for example) have a group phase at the start?

As to the question posed in the title of this thread, there is currently an over reliance on these 2 schools, but that is not because other schools aren't being looked at, these 2 schools are simply better at coaching kids in readiness for the professional game; they arent selectively admitting 12 year olds based on the likelihood of them winning a schools cup for the school; they are taking what lads they have and coaching them.

We have also been fortunate that these schools haven't been drawn to play each other in the first round for a while. If that were the case a whole year of players in one school would play one meaningful match in the year...which circles back to my first point.

Finally, it's not like Leinster are ignoring this. Take Jordan Larmour and Andrew Porter, for example. They went to a traditionally non-rugby school (St Andrew's having won the last of their 4 titles in 1922) but were identified early by Leinster and brought into the system while still in school (the sub-sub-academy, as I've heard this talent pathway called). But as pointed out by another poster above it is hard to compete on the basis of time with schools in this regard.
Why do you think it’s a daft system for producing professionals?

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by joooooe »

TrapperChamonix wrote:
joooooe wrote: Finally, it's not like Leinster are ignoring this. Take Jordan Larmour and Andrew Porter, for example. They went to a traditionally non-rugby school (St Andrew's having won the last of their 4 titles in 1922)..........................
Andrews ARE a traditional rugby school.
You wrote that while St Andrew's were playing in the All Ireland senior hockey final. Result TBD.

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by joooooe »

Pilotman123 wrote: What makes schools cup so special is that it’s knock out and you’ve been training all year for that game and if you lose it’s your last game for the school (if you’re in 6th year), that’s what makes schools cup so special and why the atmosphere is so great aswell and the whole school go to it because it’s knock out
Imagine if English football clubs played only the FA Cup each year, no league, no Europe. Now, you're a talent scout/investor/coach/player/fan/sponsor/...

If you showed the Leinster Schools Cup competition format to a visiting New Zealand development officer they would presume you were joking. He might then say "well, at least they get to play some league games too." At which point, you can point all you like to the pomp, ceremony and tradition of old boys donning the school colours at Donnybrook but he wouldn't listen as we would be laughing too hard.

I met someone recently who voted for Brexit and maintains they were right. He and I were never going to agree no matter how long we talked on the subject. Pilotman, you have posted on a number of topics here recently and I think I have disagreed with you on every one, even if I didn't post at the time (others included nationality and allegiance). You and I are just not going to agree.

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by The Doc »

joooooe wrote:
Pilotman123 wrote: What makes schools cup so special is that it’s knock out and you’ve been training all year for that game and if you lose it’s your last game for the school (if you’re in 6th year), that’s what makes schools cup so special and why the atmosphere is so great aswell and the whole school go to it because it’s knock out
Imagine if English football clubs played only the FA Cup each year, no league, no Europe. Now, you're a talent scout/investor/coach/player/fan/sponsor/...

If you showed the Leinster Schools Cup competition format to a visiting New Zealand development officer they would presume you were joking. He might then say "well, at least they get to play some league games too." At which point, you can point all you like to the pomp, ceremony and tradition of old boys donning the school colours at Donnybrook but he wouldn't listen as we would be laughing too hard.

I met someone recently who voted for Brexit and maintains they were right. He and I were never going to agree no matter how long we talked on the subject. Pilotman, you have posted on a number of topics here recently and I think I have disagreed with you on every one, even if I didn't post at the time (others included nationality and allegiance). You and I are just not going to agree.
Yeah but they have made changes...

There is a league. And they now have a triple cup comp... Where the weaker schools play they're own level but if you do have a good team it can still go right through to the top comp

It's just that all the chat here is about the top level cup... But there is a lot more going on


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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by The Doc »

joooooe wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:
joooooe wrote: Finally, it's not like Leinster are ignoring this. Take Jordan Larmour and Andrew Porter, for example. They went to a traditionally non-rugby school (St Andrew's having won the last of their 4 titles in 1922)..........................
Andrews ARE a traditional rugby school.
You wrote that while St Andrew's were playing in the All Ireland senior hockey final. Result TBD.
Still a rugby school though. And always was.

They play hockey and rugby... Same as High School or Kings Hos or Wesley or most of the mixed (Protestant) schools.

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by neiliog93 »

There's no league for the top schools sides.
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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by Pilotman123 »

Even if there was a league for the top schools sides, the teams wouldn’t care if they’d win it or not, the holy grail is the Senior Cup

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by footrush »

Andrews ARE a traditional rugby school.[/quote]

You wrote that while St Andrew's were playing in the All Ireland senior hockey final. Result TBD.[/quote]Still a rugby school though. And always was.

They play hockey and rugby... Same as High School or Kings Hos or Wesley or most of the mixed (Protestant) schools.

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by Blueberry »

Don't think there is any doubt that the trad rugby schools system is working, it's working brilliantly and producing continuously. I have no doubt this will continue. The wasted talent is in the club game where I have no doubt we are losing substantial talent because the club system is so antiquated and a mess in that key 12-16 year ago group. Many kids just through their hat at it and end up playing soccer or GAA not because they dont like rugby but because the club structures and competitions are a mess.

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Re: Overreliance on St Michael's and Blackrock(?)

Post by ormond lad »

Blueberry wrote:Don't think there is any doubt that the trad rugby schools system is working, it's working brilliantly and producing continuously. I have no doubt this will continue. The wasted talent is in the club game where I have no doubt we are losing substantial talent because the club system is so antiquated and a mess in that key 12-16 year ago group. Many kids just through their hat at it and end up playing soccer or GAA not because they dont like rugby but because the club structures and competitions are a mess.
how is club game a mess for 12 to 16 year group. The amount of wasted talent in schools game is ridiculous considering how the schools game is structured
Schools system is working to an extent but still doesnt do enough for those not in the stronger schools. Focus on cup does need to change even with quality of some friendlies played beforehand.

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