Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[Peg Leg]

Time to concentrate on improving the foundations of the team, engage in fiscally responsible investment, paying some debts, rebuilding the identity from grass roots level, improving the resources of the feeder schools, clubs and most of all the academy now.

Fixed

[ronk]

Barcelona built their success on the most productive soccer academy in the world and playing a very exciting brand of football.

[blockhead]

Time to concentrate on improving the foundations of the team, engage in fiscally responsible investment, paying some debts, rebuilding the identity from grass roots level, improving the resources of the feeder schools, clubs and most of all the academy now.

Fixed

I hadn't finished typing Peg leg. I was about to say something very similar.

[hugonaut]

That was a seriously un-involving game.

One thing I will say is that Stander is still a serious contributor for Munster. He's got as good an attitude as you could hope for in any rugby player, relishes every second of competition. I hope that Farrell selects him at blindside, which suits his confrontational style better than at No8. It would add a lot of physicality to our pack to swap him in for O'Mahony.

Stander was one of our best and most dependable forwards at RWC, and some of the criticism he shipped is unrealistic and not rooted in fact. His carry:pass ratio was 3:1 [source: https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/player/36637 ], which to me is acceptable enough. He's not as one-dimensional as his critics make him out to be, but his default carrying style has been to work closer to the ruck rather than in the backline since he started losing his pace on the back of his 2017 ankle injury and then a lot of rugby with the Lions that summer. I don't think that's a issue for a blindside when you've got a second quality ball-carrier in the backrow.

I felt that O'Mahony was over-criticised during the World Cup, but now that the whole over-reaction has passed, he's playing below average rugby for Munster and very few people are saying anything negative about him at all. All of the problems in his game are evident again, and there's a huge sense of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' surrounding him.

Is he worth a place on the bench? He has played on both flanks. I have come round to the belief that you need experience and big names on the bench ... put the form picks in the starting XV and the loyalty picks in the bench VIII. I think older players have more chance of influencing games late than younger players.

[Oldschool]

That was a seriously un-involving game.

One thing I will say is that Stander is still a serious contributor for Munster. He's got as good an attitude as you could hope for in any rugby player, relishes every second of competition. I hope that Farrell selects him at blindside, which suits his confrontational style better than at No8. It would add a lot of physicality to our pack to swap him in for O'Mahony.

Stander was one of our best and most dependable forwards at RWC, and some of the criticism he shipped is unrealistic and not rooted in fact. His carry:pass ratio was 3:1 [source: https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/player/36637 ], which to me is acceptable enough. He's not as one-dimensional as his critics make him out to be, but his default carrying style has been to work closer to the ruck rather than in the backline since he started losing his pace on the back of his 2017 ankle injury and then a lot of rugby with the Lions that summer. I don't think that's a issue for a blindside when you've got a second quality ball-carrier in the backrow.

I felt that O'Mahony was over-criticised during the World Cup, but now that the whole over-reaction has passed, he's playing below average rugby for Munster and very few people are saying anything negative about him at all. All of the problems in his game are evident again, and there's a huge sense of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' surrounding him.

Is he worth a place on the bench? He has played on both flanks. I have come round to the belief that you need experience and big names on the bench ... put the form picks in the starting XV and the loyalty picks in the bench VIII. I think older players have more chance of influencing games late than younger players.

+1 on Stander.
Wouldn't have POM anywhere near an Irish 23.
Farrell may start the clear out in the Scotland but it would/should be measured.
On that basis we could see Murray and POM on the bench for a couple of games and then POM would be released. Ruddock on the bench would be a far superior option but his style of play obviously doesn't suit Farrell.
Murray and Sexton are still in the needed for cover category.
RK in the same category but less so

[tomthefan]

Time to concentrate on improving the foundations of the team, engage in fiscally responsible investment, paying some debts, rebuilding the identity from grass roots level, improving the resources of the feeder schools, clubs and most of all the academy now.

Fixed

Actually, it's the other way around.
Limerick is doing it the right way and if Dublin did things Limerick's way we might
have a chance of winning a World Cup.
St Munchins (fees €0.00) and Ard Scoil Ris (fees €0.00) produce the like of Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray, Keith Earls etc.
The fees for Blackrock, St Michael's etc mean that only the small minority of well-heeled Dubliners get a look in.
Leinster is like a Liverpool team composed of public schoolboys.
The only reason Leinster is dominant is because Dublins population is 20 times that of Limerick and because being the capital
city means that policies favour the concentration of money there.

[blockhead]

Time to concentrate on improving the foundations of the team, engage in fiscally responsible investment, paying some debts, rebuilding the identity from grass roots level, improving the resources of the feeder schools, clubs and most of all the academy now.

Fixed

Actually, it's the other way around.
Limerick is doing it the right way and if Dublin did things Limerick's way we might
have a chance of winning a World Cup.
St Munchins (fees €0.00) and Ard Scoil Ris (fees €0.00) produce the like of Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray, Keith Earls etc.
The fees for Blackrock, St Michael's etc mean that only the small minority of well-heeled Dubliners get a look in.
Leinster is like a Liverpool team composed of public schoolboys.
The only reason Leinster is dominant is because Dublins population is 20 times that of Limerick and because being the capital
city means that policies favour the concentration of money there.

Read the above post with violins (that's fiddles down your way Tom) playing in the background.
Very few players from Limerick in the Munster squad these days. Mostly from Cork.
If were going to be likened to a football club then I think Barcelona is more accurate. More than just a club.

[ChrisUppy]

Time to concentrate on improving the foundations of the team, engage in fiscally responsible investment, paying some debts, rebuilding the identity from grass roots level, improving the resources of the feeder schools, clubs and most of all the academy now.

Fixed

St Munchins (fees €0.00) and Ard Scoil Ris (fees €0.00) produce the like of Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray, Keith Earls etc.

Anything in the last decade for us?

[The Doc]

The fees for Blackrock, St Michael's etc mean that only the small minority of well-heeled Dubliners get a look in.

This is pure nonsense - it assumes unlimited supply. If Michaels (or whoever) reduced their fees to zero - they could still only take in the same number of kids each year. Its the same fallacy as the "Dulin's population means..." argument - the Leinster academy can only take in a certain number of players a year. Doesn't matter of the population is bigger, there is an unlimited supply of places.

The real question / lesson to be learned from Michael's (or whoever) is - how do they get such a high percentage of professional players statistically from their population of students. That's what Ard Scoil or Munchins should be asking. But they mightn't like the answer (or rather - they might not choose to want to implment the answer) becasue it might mean focussing on rugby over other sports - and certainly would mean going against the local GAA and rugby clubs

[tomthefan]

This is pure nonsense - it assumes unlimited supply. If Michaels (or whoever) reduced their fees to zero - they could still only take in the same number of kids each year.

No isn't. It means that only in Limerick do non fee paying schools run meaningful rugby programmes.
Of course these schools do not have the resources to pump into rugby that St Michael's does, with its
individualised video analysis etc.
Leinster's conveyor belt is one based on privilege. That's why there are so many siblings in Leinster
professional rugby, the Kearneys, the Byrnes, the other Byrnes etc. Rugby is selecting from a very small
pond, only in Limerick is it egalitarian. That's what makes the likes of a Sean O'Brien or a
Tadhg Furlong so exceptional, they make it against all the odds.

[tomthefan]

Very few players from Limerick in the Munster squad these days. Mostly from Cork.

Cork is more like Dublin than Limerick when it comes to rugby (albeit with a lower population and less money)

[ronk]

If we have such a population advantage we wouldnt have so many brothers.

But at least they dont have brothers coming through, aside from Cronin, Scannell, Wycherly, Coombes.

[blockhead]

If we have such a population advantage we wouldnt have so many brothers.

But at least they dont have brothers coming through, aside from Cronin, Scannell, Wycherly, Coombes.

Ah now Ronk, sure they're all just one big family down south.

[Laighin Break]

This is pure nonsense - it assumes unlimited supply. If Michaels (or whoever) reduced their fees to zero - they could still only take in the same number of kids each year.

No isn't. It means that only in Limerick do non fee paying schools run meaningful rugby programmes.
Of course these schools do not have the resources to pump into rugby that St Michael's does, with its
individualised video analysis etc.
Leinster's conveyor belt is one based on privilege. That's why there are so many siblings in Leinster
professional rugby, the Kearneys, the Byrnes, the other Byrnes etc. Rugby is selecting from a very small
pond, only in Limerick is it egalitarian. That's what makes the likes of a Sean O'Brien or a
Tadhg Furlong so exceptional, they make it against all the odds.

Siblings being good at the same sports (or sport in general) is more down to genetics/natural talent than privilege. We see it all the time in the GAA too.

[wixfjord]

Bit of balance needed here lads.

Leinster clearly benefits from being the biggest catchment area, including some of the richest parts of the country.
We clearly benefit from having players coming in with superior coaching and S&C.
Money clearly has an impact on player development and many of the private schools have that in spades.

But on the other side we've also maximised this by making smart decisions from the top down and nurturing these players.

Munster can't change the demographic or educational profile of the province. But they sure can do a hell of a lot better in terms of player development, and there are plenty of lessons to be learned.

[Oldschool]

If we have such a population advantage we wouldnt have so many brothers.

But at least they dont have brothers coming through, aside from Cronin, Scannell, Wycherly, Coombes.

Ah now Ronk, sure they're all just one big family down south.

You might be closer to the truth than you think.

[The Doc]

Bit of balance needed here lads.

Leinster clearly benefits from being the biggest catchment area, including some of the richest parts of the country.
We clearly benefit from having players coming in with superior coaching and S&C.
Money clearly has an impact on player development and many of the private schools have that in spades.

But on the other side we've also maximised this by making smart decisions from the top down and nurturing these players.

Munster can't change the demographic or educational profile of the province. But they sure can do a hell of a lot better in terms of player development, and there are plenty of lessons to be learned.

I agree on these points. But what's to stop them dipping into the demographic or educational advantages in Leinster - nothing. But, even though it's given as an excuse, how often has the Munster academy offered a place to a Leinster schools player? Instead what is suggested is that the products of the academy move i.e. the output. Which implies that they are less concerned about the catchment and more concerned that they can't convert potential.

And THAT is totally in their control. And if the structures and coaching are ineffective then I don't see how it benefits player or the IRFU to move up and coming players to Munster. They would get more value moving a seasoned pro (maybe past international) who might be able to influence and bring on their talent pool.

[wixfjord]

Bit of balance needed here lads.

Leinster clearly benefits from being the biggest catchment area, including some of the richest parts of the country.
We clearly benefit from having players coming in with superior coaching and S&C.
Money clearly has an impact on player development and many of the private schools have that in spades.

But on the other side we've also maximised this by making smart decisions from the top down and nurturing these players.

Munster can't change the demographic or educational profile of the province. But they sure can do a hell of a lot better in terms of player development, and there are plenty of lessons to be learned.

I agree on these points. But what's to stop them dipping into the demographic or educational advantages in Leinster - nothing. But, even though it's given as an excuse, how often has the Munster academy offered a place to a Leinster schools player? Instead what is suggested is that the products of the academy move i.e. the output. Which implies that they are less concerned about the catchment and more concerned that they can't convert potential.

And THAT is totally in their control. And if the structures and coaching are ineffective then I don't see how it benefits player or the IRFU to move up and coming players to Munster. They would get more value moving a seasoned pro (maybe past international) who might be able to influence and bring on their talent pool.

Yep would agree with that.

The simplistic idea that a player should move just to play games is just that - simplistic.

Sure it's important to play games, but it's the whole environment that's more important.

Salanoa is a good example. I would wager he would play 3x the number of games he'd get at Leinster next season at Connacht. But at this stage of his development is it a good idea? Does he need games or does he need quality coaching in a better environment with better players around him?

[The Doc]

Yep would agree with that.

The simplistic idea that a player should move just to play games is just that - simplistic.

Sure it's important to play games, but it's the whole environment that's more important.

Salanoa is a good example. I would wager he would play 3x the number of games he'd get at Leinster next season at Connacht. But at this stage of his development is it a good idea? Does he need games or does he need quality coaching in a better environment with better players around him?

Yeah - specifically with him transferring from another sport. I also like what Connacht have done - looking for unseen potential and picking players up from other provinces.

I just can't understand why Munster aren't scouting the Leinster Schools Cup and Club Leagues. They could work with UL, create funded programs - really make it an attractive (or viable option) to a place in the Leinster academy. Even if they just focussed on the kids who don't make the Leinster setup. How many make sub-academy each year - 8? 10? and often the choice is made positionally rather than just the best players. It leaves a massive pool of available talent.

[wixfjord]

Yep would agree with that.

The simplistic idea that a player should move just to play games is just that - simplistic.

Sure it's important to play games, but it's the whole environment that's more important.

Salanoa is a good example. I would wager he would play 3x the number of games he'd get at Leinster next season at Connacht. But at this stage of his development is it a good idea? Does he need games or does he need quality coaching in a better environment with better players around him?

Yeah - specifically with him transferring from another sport. I also like what Connacht have done - looking for unseen potential and picking players up from other provinces.

I just can't understand why Munster aren't scouting the Leinster Schools Cup and Club Leagues. They could work with UL, create funded programs - really make it an attractive (or viable option) to a place in the Leinster academy. Even if they just focussed on the kids who don't make the Leinster setup. How many make sub-academy each year - 8? 10? and often the choice is made positionally rather than just the best players. It leaves a massive pool of available talent.

That would be a very innovative and sharp move.

On the other hand, could you imagine the uproar it would cause on here and elsewhere!