Leinster v Salarysins

[MylesNaGapoleen]

It was an independent commitee that made this ruling. EPRC can appeal it.

I was confused by that....i.e. an independent committee making the ruling. Surely it is advisory rather than a ruling?
Is it possible for Glasgow or Racing to appeal or make a legal claim (e.g. Racing have lost revenue from home QTR final draw + broadcast revenue share and glasgow have lost all potential revenue and have been dumped out) ?

in other words, the precedent set by Grenoble in 2012-13 suggests that Racing can.....Grenoble were docked points, fined and the game in question was awarded to the opposition.

[Theleinsterlad]

That is a shocking result - I too agree that I’d love Leinster to have the chance to beat sarries on the pitch but the fact that this team has been found to cheat for the past several seasons in their own home league and then for this not to be taken into account is very poor form. I worried before the meeting that they might fudge this to come out with the least messy result but this is just casting another dark shadow over a sport that has rooted itself in high standards of gentlemanly behaviour at all times and hard punishments if found to breach. The fact that there is also a precedence to this against Agen makes it more unpalatable- what EPRC are saying is that we will rule heavily against you if it’s a dead rubber game but if it is a serious match you can do whatever you like.

I know it’s easy to dislike sarries before but now I think they are a complete stain on the game I love - there is wilful cheating going on in that club a senior level

[LeRouxIsPHat]

The guy has been there for 5 years and is still there now, it's not like they just brought someone in as a ringer for short term cover. It was one day out, that's it. The fixtures were only announced at the start of December and had it been the day before then it wouldn't be an issue. Fairly easy to see how it would be missed (don't think they knew in advance?), especially with everything they have going on.

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

I presume anyone who has an issue with this also had an issue with Brad Thorn signing a three month deal with us (the minimum required) but not actually playing any games in June of that year?

Mountain out of a molehill.

[cormac]

The guy has been there for 5 years and is still there now, it's not like they just brought someone in as a ringer for short term cover. It was one day out, that's it. The fixtures were only announced at the start of December and had it been the day before then it wouldn't be an issue. Fairly easy to see how it would be missed (don't think they knew in advance?), especially with everything they have going on.

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

I presume anyone who has an issue with this also had an issue with Brad Thorn signing a three month deal with us (the minimum required) but not actually playing any games in June of that year?

Mountain out of a molehill.

Fixtures, dates and times were announced in August.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Huh? This is from the EPCR website.

FIXTURES: WHEN WILL THE FIXTURES FOR ROUNDS 5 AND 6 BE ANNOUNCED?
The dates and kick-off times for Rounds 5 and 6 are announced during the week after the Round 4 weekend in December.

The fixtures are confirmed and announced at this stage to ensure that the clubs and the tournaments have the best possible exposure through live broadcast coverage of as many of the key qualification matches as practicable.

[Dave Cahill]

It doesn't really matter when the fixtures were announced. Whether its a day, week or year in advance, a club is responsible for ensuring the players they select are eligible for the game they are selected for.

If it were any other club than Saracens they could plead honest mistake and most people would be okay with that. But it's Saracens, they don't get to play that card anymore having been found to be repeatedly deliberately dishonest.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

It doesn't really matter when the fixtures were announced. Whether its a day, week or year in advance, a club is responsible for ensuring the players they select are eligible for the game they are selected for.

If it were any other club than Saracens they could plead honest mistake and most people would be okay with that. But it's Saracens, they don't get to play that card anymore having been found to be repeatedly deliberately dishonest.

Just to be clear, I think they deserve to be punished but think a fine is appropriate.

I also think that not allowing him to play in the next game would be fair but a points deduction would be too much in these particular circumstances.

[Xanthippe]

The guy has been there for 5 years and is still there now, it's not like they just brought someone in as a ringer for short term cover. It was one day out, that's it. The fixtures were only announced at the start of December and had it been the day before then it wouldn't be an issue. Fairly easy to see how it would be missed (don't think they knew in advance?), especially with everything they have going on.

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

I presume anyone who has an issue with this also had an issue with Brad Thorn signing a three month deal with us (the minimum required) but not actually playing any games in June of that year?

Mountain out of a molehill.

As an administrator of a company that has used staff on work permits I’m calling bullshit on this - whenever we had a work permit employee the process for renewing permits started a minimum of three months before the expiry date to ensure we didn’t break any laws with employing ineligible staff.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

The guy has been there for 5 years and is still there now, it's not like they just brought someone in as a ringer for short term cover. It was one day out, that's it. The fixtures were only announced at the start of December and had it been the day before then it wouldn't be an issue. Fairly easy to see how it would be missed (don't think they knew in advance?), especially with everything they have going on.

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

I presume anyone who has an issue with this also had an issue with Brad Thorn signing a three month deal with us (the minimum required) but not actually playing any games in June of that year?

Mountain out of a molehill.

As an administrator of a company that has used staff on work permits I’m calling bullshit on this - whenever we had a work permit employee the process for renewing permits started a minimum of three months before the expiry date to ensure we didn’t break any laws with employing ineligible staff.

same here and I agree...sounds like a fudge. Permit applications in the EU particularly for non-EU citizens usually (not always) are dependent on an employment contract. The player would have known exactly when his permit would expire. club too.

Allegedly overheard on the same sideline mic that picked up the "fat c**t" comment made by Munsters assistant coach in a previous game:

Asst Coach: "Only twenty minutes to go, Boss. We are down to 14 but we badly need to do something or we're out"


Boss: "fck it, stick on Titi Lamositele"

Asst Coach: "we can't, remember? his permit expired yesterday"

Boss: "feck it, it's only a day late. We are toast, already relegated and nothing to play for this season except the heineken cup. If we don't change things w'e're out. What are they going to do? ..we can call it an admin error. Get Titi on Quick!"

[LeRouxIsPHat]

The guy has been there for 5 years and is still there now, it's not like they just brought someone in as a ringer for short term cover. It was one day out, that's it. The fixtures were only announced at the start of December and had it been the day before then it wouldn't be an issue. Fairly easy to see how it would be missed (don't think they knew in advance?), especially with everything they have going on.

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

I presume anyone who has an issue with this also had an issue with Brad Thorn signing a three month deal with us (the minimum required) but not actually playing any games in June of that year?

Mountain out of a molehill.

As an administrator of a company that has used staff on work permits I’m calling bullshit on this - whenever we had a work permit employee the process for renewing permits started a minimum of three months before the expiry date to ensure we didn’t break any laws with employing ineligible staff.

Call bullshit on what? The idea that a professional rugby team at the top level might make an admin error with a work permit/visa?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3219693

Niall Quinn also missed a meeting with UEFA or FIFA recently because he brought the wrong passport to the airport. That's the FAI's interim CEO who just helped secure a big bailout from the government. sh!t happens!

As I said, it would be different if it was a short term deal. If they brought someone in as World Cup cover and they played a week or two after they were supposed to then I think it would have to be seen as deliberate, but he's been there since 2015 and is still there now.

[kermischocolate]

It doesn't really matter when the fixtures were announced. Whether its a day, week or year in advance, a club is responsible for ensuring the players they select are eligible for the game they are selected for.

If it were any other club than Saracens they could plead honest mistake and most people would be okay with that. But it's Saracens, they don't get to play that card anymore having been found to be repeatedly deliberately dishonest.

Just to be clear, I think they deserve to be punished but think a fine is appropriate.

I also think that not allowing him to play in the next game would be fair but a points deduction would be too much in these particular circumstances.

Except half their fine is suspended for next season as well so what's the point in it?? Good point rea ban for the next game.

I agree it is a mountain out of a molehill in the sense that he was properly registered albeit a day out.
But, equally, rules are there for a reason.
Not legal to play should mean you don't play and there be consequences for that.

You can't just pick and choose what rules are applied when depending on how many people are disrupted by it.

As a Glasgow fan I've no interest in coming to Dublin just to get hammered so will happily cheer on Leinster against them instead. In saying that the revenue we're losing out on is huge for us (but given I'm still pissed off that we are our own worst enemy and beat ourselves for qualification it serves us right!).

What else will Sarries be found guilty of next?

[cormac]

Huh? This is from the EPCR website.

FIXTURES: WHEN WILL THE FIXTURES FOR ROUNDS 5 AND 6 BE ANNOUNCED?
The dates and kick-off times for Rounds 5 and 6 are announced during the week after the Round 4 weekend in December.

The fixtures are confirmed and announced at this stage to ensure that the clubs and the tournaments have the best possible exposure through live broadcast coverage of as many of the key qualification matches as practicable.

For the last two seasons they've announced all the fixture times and dates for rounds 1-6 in late August. Think there were a couple of games this season in Round 5 that were only confirmed in December but that's it. You can see the details of all our games in the linked thread below. (about four posts down on that page)

http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... &start=120

[Twist]

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

Yes! Thats exactly what Id expect. The player is either eligible or not.

[Dave Cahill]

Ludicrous

Following the complaint lodged by the EPCR against the Saracens for misconduct, the Independent Disciplinary Commission decided on the following penalty: a fine of 50,000 euros, including 25,000 euros suspended until the end of the 2020 season / 2021.

Racing 92 takes note of this grotesque decision. Congratulations to the Saracens for this new feat.

We now know that a club can play in its highest national division by sitting on the Salary Cap for several seasons.
We now know that a club has the possibility of being consecrated this season in a major international competition while continuing to make fun of its regulations.
We now know that a club risks only 0.07% of its budget if it aligns an ineligible international.

Rugby school of life, this wonderful sport does not have the same value for everyone but we will be happy to go play with our friends in Clermont.

https://www.racing92.fr/article/communi ... cens/13265

[LeRouxIsPHat]

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

Yes! Thats exactly what Id expect. The player is either eligible or not.

Yet you don't apply the same black and white logic to the punishment? If the punishment is a fine then it's a fine, they shouldn't lose points over it.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Ludicrous

Following the complaint lodged by the EPCR against the Saracens for misconduct, the Independent Disciplinary Commission decided on the following penalty: a fine of 50,000 euros, including 25,000 euros suspended until the end of the 2020 season / 2021.

Racing 92 takes note of this grotesque decision. Congratulations to the Saracens for this new feat.

We now know that a club can play in its highest national division by sitting on the Salary Cap for several seasons.
We now know that a club has the possibility of being consecrated this season in a major international competition while continuing to make fun of its regulations.
We now know that a club risks only 0.07% of its budget if it aligns an ineligible international.

Rugby school of life, this wonderful sport does not have the same value for everyone but we will be happy to go play with our friends in Clermont.

https://www.racing92.fr/article/communi ... cens/13265

Wow

Fair play to them for being honest. Like I said, I can understand why Glasgow and Racing would want a harsher punishment.

[Dave Cahill]

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

Yes! Thats exactly what Id expect. The player is either eligible or not.

Yet you don't apply the same black and white logic to the punishment? If the punishment is a fine then it's a fine, they shouldn't lose points over it.

That its a fine is the surprise, usually clubs have had points deducted and I can't think of a single league, from amateur to professional where fielding an ineligible player doesn't lead to a punishment involving losing any game points achieved in that game, at least, as well as punitive measures - for example, Grenoble beat London Welsh in the Challenge Cup a couple of years ago fielding an ineligible player, the result was reversed with Grenoble deducted the match points they had won.

Strangely, the Chairman in both disciplinary panels was the same chap, Roger Morris

[Twist]

If Salanoa was in a similar situation for us and we had a game called off on a Saturday but he wrongly played in a rearranged game the next day would you think it was fair for us to lose points over it?

Yes! Thats exactly what Id expect. The player is either eligible or not.

Yet you don't apply the same black and white logic to the punishment? If the punishment is a fine then it's a fine, they shouldn't lose points over it.

Thats the opposite of what I said. I do apply the same black & white logic to the punishment. The precedent was already set that points are deducted for such infractions.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

That its a fine is the surprise, usually clubs have had points deducted and I can't think of a single league, from amateur to professional where fielding an ineligible player doesn't lead to a punishment involving losing any game points achieved in that game, at least, as well as punitive measures - for example, Grenoble beat London Welsh in the Challenge Cup a couple of years ago fielding an ineligible player, the result was reversed with Grenoble deducted the match points they had won.

Strangely, the Chairman in both disciplinary panels was the same chap, Roger Morris

I would guess that the circumstances were different. The way I see it, they were caught doing 55 in a 50 zone whereas the other incidents might have been 80 in a 50 kind of thing.

People (not you Dave) seem to think that the fine has been decided upon willy nilly just to save everyone's blushes and prevent the hassle of rearranging the fixtures. That's just not how I see it and assume that the process for dealing with it is clear. I may be wrong on that, but I'll believe it until someone can point to the rule that says otherwise.

Given the trouble with Saracens this season and the threat from Racing before the hearing took place I just can't get on board with the idea that this is some kind of back room deal.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Thats the opposite of what I said. I do apply the same black & white logic to the punishment. The precedent was already set that points are deducted for such infractions.

Can you show your workings of how those incidents were the same as this one?

A work permit, one day out, same competition etc etc?