Its not a question of degree, there’s no gradations involved. An inelligible is an inelligible player.LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Can you show your workings of how those incidents were the same as this one?Twist wrote:
Thats the opposite of what I said. I do apply the same black & white logic to the punishment. The precedent was already set that points are deducted for such infractions.
A work permit, one day out, same competition etc etc?
Leinster v Salarysins
Moderator: moderators
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
- LeRouxIsPHat
- Jamie Heaslip
- Posts: 15008
- Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 7:49 pm
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
I disagree but ignore that for a second. Can you point to the rule that says that if a team fields an ineligible player they'll be docked points?Twist wrote:Its not a question of degree, there’s no gradations involved. An inelligible is an inelligible player.LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Can you show your workings of how those incidents were the same as this one?Twist wrote:
Thats the opposite of what I said. I do apply the same black & white logic to the punishment. The precedent was already set that points are deducted for such infractions.
A work permit, one day out, same competition etc etc?
Edit: I'm not just talking about the degree btw. I'm saying that if you're arguing that there's a precedent then the circumstances must be the same. Racing's argument that someone in the Top14 was docked points is b*%&!cks, it's a different competition.
- MylesNaGapoleen
- Rhys Ruddock
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: September 18th, 2009, 11:04 am
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
Lotu Taukeiaho, who was not registered as a tournament squad member with organisers European Rugby Cup (ERC), played in Grenoble's 20-9 victory over London Welsh on December 7.
An independent disciplinary committee handed down the punishment and changed the result of the match to a 28-0 win for London Welsh.
It means the Aviva Premiership newcomers gain five points and move from third to second in the pool, now three points above Grenoble, and five behind group leaders Stade Francais.
That was 2012-13
An independent disciplinary committee handed down the punishment and changed the result of the match to a 28-0 win for London Welsh.
It means the Aviva Premiership newcomers gain five points and move from third to second in the pool, now three points above Grenoble, and five behind group leaders Stade Francais.
That was 2012-13
- LeRouxIsPHat
- Jamie Heaslip
- Posts: 15008
- Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 7:49 pm
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
That's great...but it's a different thing. That guy wasn't registered for the tournament, the Sarries guy was, but his work permit had expired the day before. So any precedents for that please?MylesNaGapoleen wrote:Lotu Taukeiaho, who was not registered as a tournament squad member with organisers European Rugby Cup (ERC), played in Grenoble's 20-9 victory over London Welsh on December 7.
An independent disciplinary committee handed down the punishment and changed the result of the match to a 28-0 win for London Welsh.
It means the Aviva Premiership newcomers gain five points and move from third to second in the pool, now three points above Grenoble, and five behind group leaders Stade Francais.
That was 2012-13
- fourthirtythree
- Leo Cullen
- Posts: 10706
- Joined: April 12th, 2008, 11:33 pm
- Location: Eight miles high
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
I'm not sure that's as persuasive a point as you think: breaking the law as well as the rules of the tournament doesn't make it better.
Anyway Racing don't seem to want to bring it to court. Looks like they'd have a case if they did.
Anyway Racing don't seem to want to bring it to court. Looks like they'd have a case if they did.
- LeRouxIsPHat
- Jamie Heaslip
- Posts: 15008
- Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 7:49 pm
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
Where did I say it was better? I said it's different so therefore isn't a precedent.fourthirtythree wrote:I'm not sure that's as persuasive a point as you think: breaking the law as well as the rules of the tournament doesn't make it better.
Anyway Racing don't seem to want to bring it to court. Looks like they'd have a case if they did.
There can be no outrage at a different indiscretion resulting in a different punishment.
- fourthirtythree
- Leo Cullen
- Posts: 10706
- Joined: April 12th, 2008, 11:33 pm
- Location: Eight miles high
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
If I were in a disciplinary panel in Ireland, subject to judicial review, I would not feel confident that the high court wouldn't screw me on appeal if I had done this.
And I'm genuinely not outraged, I didn't thi k it was a big deal but it is a pain that this sh!t follows Saracens around constantly.
I won't miss them.
And I'm genuinely not outraged, I didn't thi k it was a big deal but it is a pain that this sh!t follows Saracens around constantly.
I won't miss them.
- MylesNaGapoleen
- Rhys Ruddock
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: September 18th, 2009, 11:04 am
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
They both fielded an illegible player. Same rule broken but different reasons for the illegibility.LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Where did I say it was better? I said it's different so therefore isn't a precedent.fourthirtythree wrote:I'm not sure that's as persuasive a point as you think: breaking the law as well as the rules of the tournament doesn't make it better.
Anyway Racing don't seem to want to bring it to court. Looks like they'd have a case if they did.
There can be no outrage at a different indiscretion resulting in a different punishment.
- LeRouxIsPHat
- Jamie Heaslip
- Posts: 15008
- Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 7:49 pm
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
Can you point to this catch-all rule in the participation agreement please?MylesNaGapoleen wrote:They both fielded an illegible player. Same rule broken but different reasons for the illegibility.LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Where did I say it was better? I said it's different so therefore isn't a precedent.fourthirtythree wrote:I'm not sure that's as persuasive a point as you think: breaking the law as well as the rules of the tournament doesn't make it better.
Anyway Racing don't seem to want to bring it to court. Looks like they'd have a case if they did.
There can be no outrage at a different indiscretion resulting in a different punishment.
Have you never seen one player get a 4 week ban for something on the pitch and then another gets a shorter ban for the same offence because the circumstances weren't quite the same?
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
If you go on holiday legally but your passport expires After you get there, should you be arrested the same way as someone who illegally crosses a border might.
They are different situations. Saracens had an administrative oversight in the middle of a huge crisis off the field. They have been punished and it's not a trivial punishment. They are fortunate it was not more.
They are different situations. Saracens had an administrative oversight in the middle of a huge crisis off the field. They have been punished and it's not a trivial punishment. They are fortunate it was not more.
- MylesNaGapoleen
- Rhys Ruddock
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: September 18th, 2009, 11:04 am
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
Yep, Here: https://www.epcrugby.com/champions-cup/format/rules/ Section 3 covers the 3. ELIGIBILITY OF PLAYERS rules which both Grenoble and Saracens broke for different reasons.LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Can you point to this catch-all rule in the participation agreement please?MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
They both fielded an illegible player. Same rule broken but different reasons for the illegibility.
Have you never seen one player get a 4 week ban for something on the pitch and then another gets a shorter ban for the same offence because the circumstances weren't quite the same?
Grenoble got fined, points deducted and the result of the match in question against London Irish (IIRC) was reversed 28-0 to LI. Grenoble won the game comfortably but I cannot remember the score.
Saracens were down to 14 men because of a red card....were relegated to the championship the day before the game with Racing and were struggling to edge ahead when they brought on the ineligible player at 60mins.
As an aside, I sincerely doubt they gave a flying flip at the time. Context is everything. the independent committee ruled that it (bringing on an ineligible player) didn't have a significant impact on the game. I tend to disagree but I also understand the chaos it would cause if the same punishment that happened grenoble was given to saracens.
IN the same breath, I am sorta glad we get a chance to knock out saracens in the quarters. sweet revenge for last year in newcastle and a good tester to see where we are at as a team.
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
" All such players must, on registration, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union"
And there is the difference. Saracens could argue that they haven't broken the rules.
And there is the difference. Saracens could argue that they haven't broken the rules.
- MylesNaGapoleen
- Rhys Ruddock
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: September 18th, 2009, 11:04 am
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
Ah here, not sure if you have the passport analogy right. Saracens knowingly put an ineligible player into a match where they were down to 14 men and were facing been du. Led out of the champions cup after finding out they were relegated to the championship.ronk wrote:If you go on holiday legally but your passport expires After you get there, should you be arrested the same way as someone who illegally crosses a border might.
They are different situations. Saracens had an administrative oversight in the middle of a huge crisis off the field. They have been punished and it's not a trivial punishment. They are fortunate it was not more.
I don't buy the excuse that the dog slept on the homework. Or 'admin error'. It's not as if they have a squeaky clean reputation for not cheating.
- LeRouxIsPHat
- Jamie Heaslip
- Posts: 15008
- Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 7:49 pm
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
"All such players must, on registration, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union."
He was fully and properly registered for Saracens on registration. The other player wasn't registered at all.
I'm sorry but they really are two different things. If someone complies with the rules for 99% of the time then it's not the same as someone who never did, and a work permit expiring is just not the same as never registering.
I suspect there's an element about the extension that we're not hearing about. Either it was in the works or had already been granted but not updated in the EPCR register or something. If not then you would think we'd hear about him being kicked out of the country or it will cause more hassle with the GP as well. And if that does happen then I'll certainly change my mind on the intent around this.
Look I know it's Saracens and they've done enough to justify people thinking this was deliberate in some way but it just reads like an honest mistake to me and in reality is a minor oversight. There's no point going round in circles, for me the situations aren't the same and it's just not that big a deal. But to be clear again, I 100% agree that they should be punished and also think that the player not being available for the QF would be a fairer punishment.
He was fully and properly registered for Saracens on registration. The other player wasn't registered at all.
I'm sorry but they really are two different things. If someone complies with the rules for 99% of the time then it's not the same as someone who never did, and a work permit expiring is just not the same as never registering.
I suspect there's an element about the extension that we're not hearing about. Either it was in the works or had already been granted but not updated in the EPCR register or something. If not then you would think we'd hear about him being kicked out of the country or it will cause more hassle with the GP as well. And if that does happen then I'll certainly change my mind on the intent around this.
Look I know it's Saracens and they've done enough to justify people thinking this was deliberate in some way but it just reads like an honest mistake to me and in reality is a minor oversight. There's no point going round in circles, for me the situations aren't the same and it's just not that big a deal. But to be clear again, I 100% agree that they should be punished and also think that the player not being available for the QF would be a fairer punishment.
- LeRouxIsPHat
- Jamie Heaslip
- Posts: 15008
- Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 7:49 pm
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
I've never argued that they didn't break the rulesronk wrote:" All such players must, on registration, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union"
And there is the difference. Saracens could argue that they haven't broken the rules.
- MylesNaGapoleen
- Rhys Ruddock
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: September 18th, 2009, 11:04 am
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
I think you are probably right. Fair points well made. I just hope we smash them in Dublin in the quarters.LeRouxIsPHat wrote:"All such players must, on registration, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union."
He was fully and properly registered for Saracens on registration. The other player wasn't registered at all.
I'm sorry but they really are two different things. If someone complies with the rules for 99% of the time then it's not the same as someone who never did, and a work permit expiring is just not the same as never registering.
I suspect there's an element about the extension that we're not hearing about. Either it was in the works or had already been granted but not updated in the EPCR register or something. If not then you would think we'd hear about him being kicked out of the country or it will cause more hassle with the GP as well. And if that does happen then I'll certainly change my mind on the intent around this.
Look I know it's Saracens and they've done enough to justify people thinking this was deliberate in some way but it just reads like an honest mistake to me and in reality is a minor oversight. There's no point going round in circles, for me the situations aren't the same and it's just not that big a deal. But to be clear again, I 100% agree that they should be punished and also think that the player not being available for the QF would be a fairer punishment.
- LeinsterLeader
- Seán Cronin
- Posts: 3422
- Joined: May 23rd, 2010, 8:51 pm
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
Statement from Racing (via Google Translates):
"Le Plessis Robinson, February 08, 2020
ludicrous
Following the complaint lodged by the EPCR against the Saracens for misconduct, the Independent Disciplinary Commission decided on the following penalty: a fine of 50,000 euros, including 25,000 euros suspended until the end of the 2020 season / 2021.
Racing 92 takes note of this grotesque decision. Congratulations to the Saracens for this new feat.
We now know that a club can play in its highest national division by sitting on the Salary Cap for several seasons.
We now know that a club has the possibility of being consecrated this season in a major international competition while continuing to make fun of its regulations.
We now know that a club risks only 0.07% of its budget if it aligns an ineligible international.
Rugby school of life, this wonderful sport does not have the same value for everyone but we will be happy to go play with our friends in Clermont.
Find the press release here: https://www.racing92.fr//content/upload ... racens.pdf"
I assume that's the end of it so!
"Le Plessis Robinson, February 08, 2020
ludicrous
Following the complaint lodged by the EPCR against the Saracens for misconduct, the Independent Disciplinary Commission decided on the following penalty: a fine of 50,000 euros, including 25,000 euros suspended until the end of the 2020 season / 2021.
Racing 92 takes note of this grotesque decision. Congratulations to the Saracens for this new feat.
We now know that a club can play in its highest national division by sitting on the Salary Cap for several seasons.
We now know that a club has the possibility of being consecrated this season in a major international competition while continuing to make fun of its regulations.
We now know that a club risks only 0.07% of its budget if it aligns an ineligible international.
Rugby school of life, this wonderful sport does not have the same value for everyone but we will be happy to go play with our friends in Clermont.
Find the press release here: https://www.racing92.fr//content/upload ... racens.pdf"
I assume that's the end of it so!
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
I didn't think you had.LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I've never argued that they didn't break the rulesronk wrote:" All such players must, on registration, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union"
And there is the difference. Saracens could argue that they haven't broken the rules.
- kermischocolate
- Mullet
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: May 17th, 2009, 2:56 am
- Location: Glasgow
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
Glasgow head coach is around and has an opinion on something he's prepared to speak about publically. Who knew?!
https://www.theoffsideline.com/dave-ren ... ssion=true
https://www.theoffsideline.com/dave-ren ... ssion=true
Re: Leinster v Salarysins
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/51495200
Reported already, but now confirmed that Allianz have severed their links at the end of this season.
Reported already, but now confirmed that Allianz have severed their links at the end of this season.