Leinster Squad 19-20

[Pilotman123]

Hi Guys,

Long time no chat.
Don’t worry, my visit is just to say a quick hello.

I seen the article about Munster’s latest signing, and said I’d check out how it was received over here.
I am not shocked by your responses, but more a bit concerned.

I think some of you have lost sight of the fact that the IRFU own 4 franchises, Leinster and Munster being 2 of the 4.
These franchises were set up with one goal in mind, to improve the international team.
This is something that has been a massive success, with Ireland winning a number of triple crowns, 6 nations and grand slams since the inception of the concept of these franchises.

The IRFU have taken the line that in order for these franchises to accomplish their goals, then they need the best players playing as often as possible, thus a wise decision was made to spread the talent across the 4 franchises as much as possible, and try to remove bottle necks which is limiting players progression.
This has seen many players move from one province to another, not all of the flow has been from Leinster to Munster as many on here seem to believe.
We have also seen players leave Munster to head to other provinces, although not in massive numbers, as Munster are unlikely to have the same surplus as the likes of Leinster for obvious reasons.

We have also seen Leinster players move from Leinster to Ulster and Connacht, but for some reason these transfers are acceptable?

On Munster developing players, they do develop good quality players, and this development has definitely improved lately, but they will never develop the same numbers as Leinster, as we do not have the population.
Saying that, in general, if you look at the match day 23 from this season for each of the 4 franchises, then you will see that Munster are generally in the top 2 when it comes to fielding home grown players, but that would not fit the narrative of the vocal minority of Leinster fans.

I hope all of your families and loved ones are safe and healthy during this troubling time.

Ciao for now.

This is one of the least persuasive posts I’ve seen here in a while.

Munster are not doing well when it comes to developing players. Craig Casey is a huge talent, and how much faith have Munster shown in him?

Well they took Nick McCarthy from Leinster to start with then tried to hold on the Alby Mathewson until the IRFU pried their hands off him. Casey has played 6 times this season, with three of those being starts. He got 12 minutes against Ospreys twice, and 2 whole minutes against Racing.

Is Nick McCarthy getting more development than he would’ve at Leinster? He got 4 starts, along with 6 minutes against Saracens and 5 against Scarlets.

Munster already have;
Stephen Archer
John Ryan
Ciaran Parker (age 24)
Kenyon Knox (age 21)

Given their proven track record for not favouring youth, and the potential in Parker and Knox, it’s highly unlikely Roman Salanoa’s development will be accelerated at Munster.

Stephen Archer, John Ryan and Ciaran Parker aren’t good, Salanoa has a lot more potential than them. Archer, Ryan and Parker wouldn’t get anywhere near the Leinster team

[jimbobjoe]

Today is a great example of that, 2 well thought of props are moving, and there is only outrage about the one moving to Munster.
At least we agree that Munster are bad, but not as bad as Connacht and Ulster? But sure they are sound.
Not sure the derogatory comment about dwarves is appropriate or necessary?

Give us time - we haven't moved on to the other one yet

More seriously - I can explain that no problem. The move to Connacht is more understandable because Jack is likely moving to actually push for regular starts (or match day spot). I can understand that both from the player's point of view and Connacht's. I could understand Jordi or Jack moving North for the same reason. Even Joey's move makes sense if he believes he really is a 10.

But moving from a spot where you had already made your first appearances in the first team to be 5th choice in an organisation barely using their 3rd choice in any position just seems odd. It doesn't look like a player driven move. I wonder how many minutes of game time he gets in the next 12 months.

Wait til prop 1 and prop 2 get injured and a south african journeyman medical jokers his way into the team for anywhere between 3 months to 2 years because the depth wasn't used when they had the chance.

[Blueberry]

We can endlessly talk this round in circles but to me it's extremely clear what the problem is and what protocol should be followed:

i) Yes the IRFU wants provinces to develop talent for the benefit of the Irish national team - I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

ii) Yes one of the core roles of the provinces is to develop talent for the benefit of the Irish national team - I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

iii) BUT it is also a core role of each province to win major competitions (PRO 14 and Euro Cup) not only for the sake of it but to expose those players to the highest possible level of the game to help in their international development. Games like Leinster v Saracens for example are close to if not at test intensity and the best prep possible for these players - I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

iv) Obviously provinces at certain points depending on the talent pool in their academy and their own hard work with their academies will have 'surplus' players in certain positions - for example if Leinster have a crop of tight heads props they at somepoint will have to make a call as to who gets a contract and who doesn't. Squad sizes can only be so big so logically provinces will make a decision on who gets the nod and who is surplus - I don't think anyone disagrees with this. If Leinster suddenly produce 6 exceptional hookers we quite simply can't and won't give 6 of them full time contracts so squad sizes and obvious practicalities force players to move.

v) I think we can all agree that 'surplus' provincial players if they can secure a contract with another Irish province can only benefit Irish rugby as there is a small chance that these players could come through in time and push for Irish team places. Better than them heading off to the UK or France.

vi) I think we can all agree that ultimately a player should be able to play where he wants so if for whatever reason a player decides he is not happy at his province and wants to move and can secure a contract at another province then that should be a personal player freedom.

Pretty sure all of the above makes logical sense..................

So to me it appears the contentious issue here is moving players against the wishes of the province and player or manipulating a situation to 'persuade' a player to move.

For me moving a player should only happen where a player specifically goes looking for a move or where a province sees that player as no longer required - THIS IS THE KEY THING TO ME ANYWAY................................

Moving players by the IRFU from one province to another province against the players and provinces wishes is rewarding failure. So Leinster we can all agree has had a hugely successful academy but I think we are losing players we didn't want to lose due to IRFU meddling and this is rewarding failure and punishing success. If you as a province have developed the talent pool in your squad it really should be up to that province to make decisions as to who is surplus.(Of course accepting those players who for whatever reason want to move themselves). For a province like Munster if they ultimately know they can go poaching players from Leinster or elsewhere with IRFU help it reduces the absolute necessity of getting their own academy right. If Munster knew all they would be getting from other provinces is handoffs and players who probably won't become international standard it will force them to focus 100% on their young player development. By allowing decent players to move to Munster (Carbery etc) they also limit playing time and potential for local developed talent so it's a vicious circle.

So in this case, if Salanoa decided he'd had enough at Leinster and wanted to leave fair enough or if Leinster had decided he was surplus to requirements and were not going to offer him a contract fair enough too.

The coverage of the story suggests this is not the case and both Salanoa and Leinster would have been happy with a continued Leinster contract at least for another season.

I also don't believe Joey Carbery wanted to move but 'was talked into it' with Joe and IRFU pressure. He was backed into a corner I feel. If he had stayed the plan in Leinster I believe was to develop and push him into the fullback slot replacing Rob Kearney. Larmour has now done this but would have simply been on the wing instead. With all the BS talked about that move we won't ever know for sure but that's my belief and for the record I think his best position is fullback.....

I know at the moment the talent pool and academy success is stacked in Leinster's court but the success that Leinster has achieved should be lauded and supported at all costs by the IRFU not undermined. If Munster/ Ulster etc can't use our success as a motivator to get better and pull through local players etc to get closer to Leinster well really all that smacks of is failure and lack of determination. Not values I would have associated with Munster rugby in the 2000's when they battered their way to 2 European cups with a largely home grown squad and seriously can any Munster fan who can look himself in the mirror actually say winning another European Cup with a team of players poached from around Ireland and South Africa say it will mean anything at all in comparison to 2006 and 2008 ?

Provincial integrity is the unique thing Irish Rugby has had with Munster and Leinster being largely locally grown lads playing together to win big. That to me is special.

Anyway...............my view is clear, always reward success and never reward failure.

[munster#1]

Today is a great example of that, 2 well thought of props are moving, and there is only outrage about the one moving to Munster.
At least we agree that Munster are bad, but not as bad as Connacht and Ulster? But sure they are sound.
Not sure the derogatory comment about dwarves is appropriate or necessary?

Give us time - we haven't moved on to the other one yet

More seriously - I can explain that no problem. The move to Connacht is more understandable because Jack is likely moving to actually push for regular starts (or match day spot). I can understand that both from the player's point of view and Connacht's. I could understand Jordi or Jack moving North for the same reason. Even Joey's move makes sense if he believes he really is a 10.

But moving from a spot where you had already made your first appearances in the first team to be 5th choice in an organisation barely using their 3rd choice in any position just seems odd. It doesn't look like a player driven move. I wonder how many minutes of game time he gets in the next 12 months.

Wait til prop 1 and prop 2 get injured and a south african journeyman medical jokers his way into the team for anywhere between 3 months to 2 years because the depth wasn't used when they had the chance.

Let’s hope he turns out like another American born prop Munster have on their books, who seized the opportunity afforded to him due to injury, and cements himself as a real option for the match day squad.

[mildlyinterested]

Without leinster players the other provinces would be non-competitive in the league, let alone europe.

[Blueberry]

Without leinster players the other provinces would be non-competitive in the league, let alone europe.

Agree totally but let Leinster determine who is surplus to requirements.................and they can live on the scraps if they choose or focus more on pulling local talent through. Don't undermine the greatest asset Irish rugby has at the moment, i.e Leinster, it's schools and academy.

[mildlyinterested]

Without leinster players the other provinces would be non-competitive in the league, let alone europe.

Agree totally but let Leinster determine who is surplus to requirements.................and they can live on the scraps if they choose or focus more on pulling local talent through. Don't undermine the greatest asset Irish rugby has at the moment, i.e Leinster, it's schools and academy.

agreed without the tribalism inherent in irish sport, you risk losing fans and interest.

[Blueberry]

Without leinster players the other provinces would be non-competitive in the league, let alone europe.

Agree totally but let Leinster determine who is surplus to requirements.................and they can live on the scraps if they choose or focus more on pulling local talent through. Don't undermine the greatest asset Irish rugby has at the moment, i.e Leinster, it's schools and academy.

agreed without the tribalism inherent in irish sport, you risk losing fans and interest.

Spot on - the unique and great thing about supporting Leinster for me (and bloody hell are we lucky as this is virtually unique in Europe) is that I'm watching a close bunch of local lads playing for THEIR province. I believe that is what made Munster great in 2006/2008 etc too....so it's not just blue tinged glasses.

The Munster / Leinster derby has for me lost much of it's shine in recent seasons not because we are mainly beating them but because it's Leinster playing a hodge podge team of some Munster players, some Leinster and other players and a load of saffers.

Pity really.

[riocard911]

Without leinster players the other provinces would be non-competitive in the league, let alone europe.

Agree totally but let Leinster determine who is surplus to requirements.................and they can live on the scraps if they choose or focus more on pulling local talent through. Don't undermine the greatest asset Irish rugby has at the moment, i.e Leinster, it's schools and academy.

+1

[Peg Leg]

At this moment in time the fact remains that Leinster are benefiting massively from their geographical location.
Right now the schools game in Leinster is so good and is so well funded that players are coming out of school ready for the pro environment, as they have essentially been living like a pro athlete already.
Not only do Leinster have the benefit of having privately funded academies within their schools game, they also have the benefit of numbers.
The more players you have in a quality system will inevitably lead to the development of a better quality end product, whereas the likes of Munster and Connacht do not have this luxury, as they are limited to the number of we’ll funded quality schools systems and by populations.

Absolutely. Explains why the Blues [with Auckland's population of 1.46m] have dominated Super Rugby in recent seasons while Canterbury [with Christchurch's population of 377k] have really struggled. It's just a numbers game.

Hawaii is actually a lot closer to Kerry than anywhere in Leinster too.

That's funny, I had actually checked this thinking it would actually be very close due to the spherical nature of this planet and the quickest route being to fly over the north pole.
Dublin - Hawaii: 11,344km
Killarney - Hawaii: 11,363km
Limerick - Hawaii: 11,331km

Perhaps not the key decider.

[Peg Leg]

This is one of the least persuasive posts I’ve seen here in a while.

Munster are not doing well when it comes to developing players. Craig Casey is a huge talent, and how much faith have Munster shown in him?

Well they took Nick McCarthy from Leinster to start with then tried to hold on the Alby Mathewson until the IRFU pried their hands off him. Casey has played 6 times this season, with three of those being starts. He got 12 minutes against Ospreys twice, and 2 whole minutes against Racing.

Is Nick McCarthy getting more development than he would’ve at Leinster? He got 4 starts, along with 6 minutes against Saracens and 5 against Scarlets.

Munster already have;
Stephen Archer
John Ryan
Ciaran Parker (age 24)
Kenyon Knox (age 21)

Given their proven track record for not favouring youth, and the potential in Parker and Knox, it’s highly unlikely Roman Salanoa’s development will be accelerated at Munster.

Stephen Archer, John Ryan and Ciaran Parker aren’t good, Salanoa has a lot more potential than them. Archer, Ryan and Parker wouldn’t get anywhere near the Leinster team

This is true, but Munster should be targeting Porter then!
It's the buying potential and expecting to nurture the player into a star that's been the failing of the organisation in the first place.

[mildlyinterested]

This is one of the least persuasive posts I’ve seen here in a while.

Munster are not doing well when it comes to developing players. Craig Casey is a huge talent, and how much faith have Munster shown in him?

Well they took Nick McCarthy from Leinster to start with then tried to hold on the Alby Mathewson until the IRFU pried their hands off him. Casey has played 6 times this season, with three of those being starts. He got 12 minutes against Ospreys twice, and 2 whole minutes against Racing.

Is Nick McCarthy getting more development than he would’ve at Leinster? He got 4 starts, along with 6 minutes against Saracens and 5 against Scarlets.

Munster already have;
Stephen Archer
John Ryan
Ciaran Parker (age 24)
Kenyon Knox (age 21)

Given their proven track record for not favouring youth, and the potential in Parker and Knox, it’s highly unlikely Roman Salanoa’s development will be accelerated at Munster.

Stephen Archer, John Ryan and Ciaran Parker aren’t good, Salanoa has a lot more potential than them. Archer, Ryan and Parker wouldn’t get anywhere near the Leinster team

This is true, but Munster should be targeting Porter then!
It's the buying potential and expecting to nurture the player into a star that's been the failing of the organisation in the first place.

They've tried to sign him several times, he has told them and the irfu where to go each time.

Similar with Doris with Connacht, Conan with Ulster etc. etc.

[Keith]

Without leinster players the other provinces would be non-competitive in the league, let alone europe.

Agree totally but let Leinster determine who is surplus to requirements.................and they can live on the scraps if they choose or focus more on pulling local talent through. Don't undermine the greatest asset Irish rugby has at the moment, i.e Leinster, it's schools and academy.

agreed without the tribalism inherent in irish sport, you risk losing fans and interest.

Tell that to all the eejits supporting premier league football teams.

[joooooe]

Today is a great example of that, 2 well thought of props are moving, and there is only outrage about the one moving to Munster.
At least we agree that Munster are bad, but not as bad as Connacht and Ulster? But sure they are sound.
Not sure the derogatory comment about dwarves is appropriate or necessary?

Give us time - we haven't moved on to the other one yet

More seriously - I can explain that no problem. The move to Connacht is more understandable because Jack is likely moving to actually push for regular starts (or match day spot). I can understand that both from the player's point of view and Connacht's. I could understand Jordi or Jack moving North for the same reason. Even Joey's move makes sense if he believes he really is a 10.

But moving from a spot where you had already made your first appearances in the first team to be 5th choice in an organisation barely using their 3rd choice in any position just seems odd. It doesn't look like a player driven move. I wonder how many minutes of game time he gets in the next 12 months.

Wait til prop 1 and prop 2 get injured and a south african journeyman medical jokers his way into the team for anywhere between 3 months to 2 years because the depth wasn't used when they had the chance.

[Ruckedtobits]

Players who sign to take the 4th or 5th slot in a Province for a front or 2nd row position, need to think very carefully whether their Agent is advising in their best interests or his best interests. Uprooting your life to hold tackle pads, or put on the Yellow top for another training session, are not proven routes of advancement.

Pro sport is a tough journey. Choosing the right path is the most important part. A couple of former Leinster players made choices this week which may prove to be "long and winding roads".

[mildlyinterested]

Players who sign to take the 4th or 5th slot in a Province for a front or 2nd row position, need to think very carefully whether their Agent is advising in their best interests or his best interests. Uprooting your life to hold tackle pads, or put on the Yellow top for another training session, are not proven routes of advancement.

Pro sport is a tough journey. Choosing the right path is the most important part. A couple of former Leinster players made choices this week which may prove to be "long and winding roads".

So expect more unexpected departures?

[mildlyinterested]

Possible senior squad next season?

LH Prop(4)
Cian Healy(32) - Signed central 2yr contract in 2019
Ed Byrne(27) - Signed contract in 2017
Peter Dooley(26) - Signed contract in 2018
Michael Milne(21) - Signed contract in 2020

TH Prop(4)
Michael Bent(34) - Signed contract in 2018
Tadhg Furlong(27) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2018
Andrew Porter(24) - Signed contract in 2017
Vakh Abdaladze(24) - Signed contact in 2018

Hooker(5)
Sean Cronin(34) - Signed contract in 2018
James Tracy(29) - Signed contract in 2018
Ronan Kelleher(22) - Signed contract in 2019
Dan Sheehan(21) - Signed contract in 2020

Lock(6)
Scott Fardy(36) - Signed 1 yr contract in 2019
Devin Toner(34) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2017
Ross Molony(26) - Signed contract in 2018
James Ryan(24) - Signed contract in 2017
Jack Dunne(21) - Signed contract in 2020
Ryan Baird(21)- Signed contract in 2020

Backrow(9)
Rhys Ruddock(29) - Signed contract in 2018
Jack Conan(28) - Signed contract in 2019
Josh Van Der Flier(27) - Signed contract in 2018
Dan Leavy(26) - Signed contract in 2019
Josh Murphy(25) - Signed contract in 2019
Will Connors(24) - Signed contract in 2018
Max Deegan(23) - Signed contract in 2019
Caelan Doris(22) - Signed contract in 2018
Scott Penny(20) - Signed contract in 2019

Scrumhalf(4)
Jamie Gibson Park(28) -Signed contract in 2019
Luke McGrath(27) - Signed contract in 2019
Rowan Osborne(23) - Signed contract in 2020
Hugh O'Sullivan(22) - Signed contract in 2019

Outhalf(4)
Jonathan Sexton(35) - Signed central 2 yr contract in 2019
Ross Byrne(25) - Signed contract in 2017
Ciaran Frawley(22) - Signed contract in 2019
Harry Byrne(21) - Signed contract in 2020

Centre(7)
Robbie Henshaw(27) - Signed 3yr central contract in 2019
Rory O'Loughlin(26) - Signed contract in 2017
Garry Ringrose(25) - Signed contract in 2018
Conor O'Brien(24) - Signed contract in 2019
Jimmy O'Brien(23) - Signed contract in 2019
Gavin Mullin(22) - Signed contract in 2020
Tommy O'Brien(22) - Signed contract in 2020

Back Three(7)
Dave Kearney(31) - Signed contract in 2019
James Lowe(28) - Signed 3yr contract in 2017
Barry Daly(27) - Signed contract in 2017
Adam Byrne(26) - Signed contract in 2017
Cian Kelleher(26) - Signed contract in 2019
Hugo Keenan(24) - Signed contract in 2019
Jordan Larmour(23) - Signed contract in 2018

[meathman3]

FB is a specialist position not to be lumped in as back 3. We don't have enough quality there. Larmour struggles against quality sides especially in defence and Keenan only learning. Giving another year to RK especially with the fixtures backlog makes sense. Fardy is 36 and kept for leadership. Why not Kearney who is only just turned 34.

[TrapperChamonix]

A couple of injuries and players away in Ireland Camp means the front row now looks very shallow. Who's next off the rank in the Academy? Clarkson & Ward at TH, Bobby Sheehan at Hooker, ?? at LH. Any thoughts?

Possible senior squad next season?

LH Prop(4)
Cian Healy(32) - Signed central 2yr contract in 2019
Ed Byrne(27) - Signed contract in 2017
Peter Dooley(26) - Signed contract in 2018
Michael Milne(21) - Signed contract in 2020

TH Prop(4)
Michael Bent(34) - Signed contract in 2018
Tadhg Furlong(27) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2018
Andrew Porter(24) - Signed contract in 2017
Vakh Abdaladze(24) - Signed contact in 2018

Hooker(5)
Sean Cronin(34) - Signed contract in 2018
James Tracy(29) - Signed contract in 2018
Ronan Kelleher(22) - Signed contract in 2019
Dan Sheehan(21) - Signed contract in 2020

[mildlyinterested]

A couple of injuries and players away in Ireland Camp means the front row now looks very shallow. Who's next off the rank in the Academy? Clarkson & Ward at TH, Bobby Sheehan at Hooker, ?? at LH. Any thoughts?

Difficult to project, I wonder if they will take in Ward and Hanan from this years 20's to have bodies at those positions.

Marcus Hanan or Harry Noonan at 1.
Charlie Ward can cover 1 and 3.

Bobby Sheehan or John McKee at hooker.

Now could they look at the AIL?

Prop: Adam Coyle(Naas) or JP Phelan(Clontarf)
Hooker: Dylan Donnellan(Clontarf) or Tadgh McElroy(Clontarf)