Leinster v Salarysins

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I wonder is Keenan at 15 and Larmour at 14 a better mix?
Hugo was really solid again yesterday btw. One of the breakout stars this season.

Well it can't be worse!

Larmour at full back is over. We need to find a full back. And in the interim we need to find out if a certain someone fancies one more season

Don’t agree at all, he was only 23 in June and was brilliant against Munster a couple of weeks ago. It was a big step back though and would certainly make me but a big question mark beside his name.

Frawley would have been a great bench option yesterday. Could have come on for Robbie or at a fullback when things weren’t going well. Still think it was the right call to go with Ross but it’s something we should look at in future IMO. It’s been a big frustration of mine that Ireland didn’t use Joey as a backup fullback but think we could definitely use Frawley as a playmaker off the bench.

Not convinced about Lowe as a top international anymore. His size will he really useful in a team that lacks carriers but he really can be got at in the air and positionally. Teams like England or a fully stacked Saracens could really get a lot of joy out of him.

[Chengleng1]

I wonder is Keenan at 15 and Larmour at 14 a better mix?
Hugo was really solid again yesterday btw. One of the breakout stars this season.

Well it can't be worse!

Larmour at full back is over. We need to find a full back. And in the interim we need to find out if a certain someone fancies one more season

Hugo looks the more natural fielder, a swap may benefit both. The mark after the Daly drop goal attempt was a strange decision for JL, with everyone in front of him by some distance. Against his natural instincts you'd have thought

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[Blueberry]

Keenan does look more natural under the high ball so it is something I am sure will be looked at....not sure that retaining Rob for one more year is a bright idea. Having Keenan as first choice full back with Larmour and Dave K being able to play there is enough cover.

[Dave Cahill]

I wonder is Keenan at 15 and Larmour at 14 a better mix?
Hugo was really solid again yesterday btw. One of the breakout stars this season.

Well it can't be worse!

Larmour at full back is over. We need to find a full back. And in the interim we need to find out if a certain someone fancies one more season

Don’t agree at all, he was only 23 in June and was brilliant against Munster a couple of weeks ago. It was a big step back though and would certainly make me but a big question mark beside his name.

Frawley would have been a great bench option yesterday. Could have come on for Robbie or at a fullback when things weren’t going well. Still think it was the right call to go with Ross but it’s something we should look at in future IMO. It’s been a big frustration of mine that Ireland didn’t use Joey as a backup fullback but think we could definitely use Frawley as a playmaker off the bench.

Not convinced about Lowe as a top international anymore. His size will he really useful in a team that lacks carriers but he really can be got at in the air and positionally. Teams like England or a fully stacked Saracens could really get a lot of joy out of him.

i think brilliant may be overegging it somewhat, but even if he was, theres a big difference looking brilliant against a team as relatively poor as Munster were that night, and looking even adequate against the teams at the business end of European competition. Its not the first time he has had problems against the better teams either. His reading of the game and his covering of the backfield just isn't up to scratch. Now, as you say, he's still relatively young, but being part of the Irish squad has actually slowed his development. All the stuff that one learns through playing and gains through experience he isn't getting because he isn't playing enough (and yes I'm aware that I'm saying he should both play full back less and play full back more)

[Experimental]

Gutted to go out in a quarter final, but honestly I think we can be pretty proud of what we've accomplished this year. We blooded a lot of new players (3 in this game alone). Thought Keenan and Baird especially stood up and showed that they may be new, but they can mix it at the top level, Keenan looks a better fullback than Larmour. Furlong and Leavy make a difference and we missed them badly. I thought Saracens were outstanding, they are some team (even without Farrell). Rhodes, Koch, George and Itoje were just brilliant, hats off to them. Thought Leo trusting all the young guys at the end was the right thing to do, they will learn much from this experience. The scrum, lineout and restarts are what killed us this season.

[curates_egg]

I wonder is Keenan at 15 and Larmour at 14 a better mix?
Hugo was really solid again yesterday btw. One of the breakout stars this season.

Well it can't be worse!

Larmour at full back is over. We need to find a full back. And in the interim we need to find out if a certain someone fancies one more season

Hugo looks the more natural fielder, a swap may benefit both. The mark after the Daly drop goal attempt was a strange decision for JL, with everyone in front of him by some distance. Against his natural instincts you'd have thought

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

Not only did he have loads of space around him, all the Saracens defenders were offside, after the deep drop goal attempt. It was pretty GUBU. Of all moments to try and pretend to be a conservative full back, it was pretty much the worst he could have chosen.

[OTT]

One more thing. It was never going to happen For man of match but I thought James Ryan was the best player on the pitch.

Again because this team are the team they are I thought we could come back after half time, like I should have had no f%~king right to think that how poor we were in the first half And 22-3 down but I did because that is the Leinster I’ve been lucky to support, they always have a chance. That is pretty unreal that a pessimistic f%~ker like me still thought we had a chance. What a f%~king team we are.

Anyway back to James Ryan, when he went through Itoje...literally...in the second half I thought GAME ON. It was but it didn’t finish as I hoped but f%~k me Ryan was the player from 17-18, the leader we have seen coming through from michaels jct. welcome back JR. He won’t get the credit because of the loss and the scrum ( which is definitely an area he will have totake some ownership of) but I thought he looked out on his own around the field even against his illustrious contemporaries.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

i think brilliant may be overegging it somewhat, but even if he was, theres a big difference looking brilliant against a team as relatively poor as Munster were that night, and looking even adequate against the teams at the business end of European competition. Its not the first time he has had problems against the better teams either. His reading of the game and his covering of the backfield just isn't up to scratch. Now, as you say, he's still relatively young, but being part of the Irish squad has actually slowed his development. All the stuff that one learns through playing and gains through experience he isn't getting because he isn't playing enough (and yes I'm aware that I'm saying he should both play full back less and play full back more)

I really don’t think it is, especially in the context of how bad things had been in the first game and he had so much pressure on him. Don’t get me wrong though, I think there’s now a big doubt as to whether he can become consistently solid. My gut says that he’s shown enough ability in the air (fielding and reading) and seems mentally strong enough that he can do it, but I’m far from certain.

So for me he has the ability. Consistency, making sure he has help to try and mitigate any mistakes, and having an alternative all need work though.

[Atlas]

Posted something like below earlier, but seems to have been lost to the depths on the internet.

The scrum issues are forgivable. Sarries are a great scrumming team and our front row wouldn't have come up against that in quite some time. Difficult to train for something like that.

Not having a functional lineout is unforgivable. We could not throw beyond 2 and that is shocking at this level. Had weeks to sort it and couldn't and that reflects very poorly on the coaching staff and players. It's one thing to throw beyond 2 and the opposition pick it off, another to not even be able to do that.

Also very poor not to check the sarries line speed with grubber/chips kicks. They got off the line knowing there was no danger of the space behind being tested. The one time JPG kicks long, there is loads of space and we get lucky bounce and a line out in their 22. A few weeks ago, when Henshaw kicked through for Ringroses try and Frawley kicked that grubber from the half way line to under the post and regathers, I thought we were developing our kicking game for the Sarries match but I guess not.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I’d have to watch it back but I think part of the reason we kept throwing to two was just avoiding Itoje. We obviously simplified it too though.

The one bit of good news is that I forgot to record it.

[backrower8]

Thinking about how our pack were schooled and lacked Cohesion and dog.

Other than Porter, we didn’t have the mega brute power athletes they have in the form of the Vunipolas and Koch. Ryan was powerful and excellent in his second game back with lots of dominant collisions.

In addition to that, compared to the wolf-pack who (bar Swinson) have years of being in the trenches together, our Pack combinations are both early in the season, with a fair bit of rotation, and early in careers too.

New back row combo, with Doris playing his 4th of 5th senior game at 6, Kelleher Still bedding in, Ryan (2nd game), Baird a total newbie. How many minutes do Byrne, Kelleher, Bent have scrummaging together?

All this was exposed in the scrum, obviously, but also the maul.

That said Gauzere totally bottled giving Sarries a yellow for repeated maul infringements and, most of all, early engagement of the Lineout catcher. Instead of carding them Gauzere actually gave up penalizing them for this at all. There were at least two early engagements in the last quarter that he ignored and this just neutered an already impotent maul.

The calibre of our players and our systems get us last most, but the most striking thing for me yesterday was Saracens cohesion as a team and this mattered most of all up front.

[backrower8]

Re Full-back.

Larmour, 23 is a poor decision maker. I do t see that improving enough for what we and Ireland need.

Keenan, one year old at 24, is a very good decision maker. I still have some reservations about his size at the top level, but his class is eroding those away.

Of the potential solutions for Leinster, Cian Kelleher ?26) has something to offer. A superb athlete and footballer, with reassuring size. His decision making isn’t as good as Keenan’s, but I sense it’s better than Larmour’s.

[nc6000]

The one bit of good news is that I forgot to record it.

It's on again on BT3 this afternoon in place of the cancelled Castres-Leicester game.

[Oldschool]

Posted something like below earlier, but seems to have been lost to the depths on the internet.

The scrum issues are forgivable. Sarries are a great scrumming team and our front row wouldn't have come up against that in quite some time. Difficult to train for something like that.

Not having a functional lineout is unforgivable. We could not throw beyond 2 and that is shocking at this level. Had weeks to sort it and couldn't and that reflects very poorly on the coaching staff and players. It's one thing to throw beyond 2 and the opposition pick it off, another to not even be able to do that.

Also very poor not to check the sarries line speed with grubber/chips kicks. They got off the line knowing there was no danger of the space behind being tested. The one time JPG kicks long, there is loads of space and we get lucky bounce and a line out in their 22. A few weeks ago, when Henshaw kicked through for Ringroses try and Frawley kicked that grubber from the half way line to under the post and regathers, I thought we were developing our kicking game for the Sarries match but I guess not.

Good summary of the many problems we had
Scrums - good insight.
Lineout - we seem to have a systems issue here and should improve.
Back play - Sexton had a kick blocked down on a free play ergo he's lost his edge. That's just an example, as you point out no through balls (chips or grubbers).
Selection was also an issue but tbf i said we should have started Cronin and would have had Fardy on the bench.
On the other hand i said JGP should start.

[Oldschool]

Re Full-back.

Larmour, 23 is a poor decision maker. I do t see that improving enough for what we and Ireland need.

Keenan, one year old at 24, is a very good decision maker. I still have some reservations about his size at the top level, but his class is eroding those away.

Of the potential solutions for Leinster, Cian Kelleher ?26) has something to offer. A superb athlete and footballer, with reassuring size. His decision making isn’t as good as Keenan’s, but I sense it’s better than Larmour’s.

Keenan has an assured look about something neither of the other two have.
Kelleher is an out and out speedster, ideal on wing.
Larmour is becoming a dichotomy. Not a FB so probably a winger only because he doesn't have the brain to play 13.

[Oldschool]

I’d have to watch it back but I think part of the reason we kept throwing to two was just avoiding Itoje. We obviously simplified it too though.

The one bit of good news is that I forgot to record it.

Tend to agree.

[Bogger]

Very disappointed by result but not by players and coaching staff...sarries have the bird on us for some reason..I expect Racing will stuff them in Paris...anyway we have some batch of new players coming through very excited about next season.

[Oldschool]

Posted something like below earlier, but seems to have been lost to the depths on the internet.

The scrum issues are forgivable. Sarries are a great scrumming team and our front row wouldn't have come up against that in quite some time. Difficult to train for something like that.

Not having a functional lineout is unforgivable. We could not throw beyond 2 and that is shocking at this level. Had weeks to sort it and couldn't and that reflects very poorly on the coaching staff and players. It's one thing to throw beyond 2 and the opposition pick it off, another to not even be able to do that.

Also very poor not to check the sarries line speed with grubber/chips kicks. They got off the line knowing there was no danger of the space behind being tested. The one time JPG kicks long, there is loads of space and we get lucky bounce and a line out in their 22. A few weeks ago, when Henshaw kicked through for Ringroses try and Frawley kicked that grubber from the half way line to under the post and regathers, I thought we were developing our kicking game for the Sarries match but I guess not.

On your BR comments.
There's an issue - What is our best BR.
We could afford to leave a player as good as Deegan out of the 23 and had two 7s in the match day 23 which is quite unusual.
You could add Ruddock and Josh Murphy into the mix too.
Leavy still to come.
Would be an interesting exercise in hindsight to see what team people think would have done better yesterday.
One for a separate post.

[brenno]

Yep he hasn't been firing on all cylinders and his inclusion probably wouldn't have changed the result but Fardy was badly missed. When you know you're going to be in a dogfight then you include a dog with a bit of devil in the team and Fardy has that in loads. Realistically all Dev provides now is height, he's not mobile enough around the pitch, he's not aggressive enough and he's just too nice. Fine when up teams from the bottom half of the Pro14 but for an ERC quarter final against a team like Saracens, the wrong call. Ryan and Fardy as starters with Baird off the bench a batter option.

[Atlas]

I think the BR yesterday was the best we could pick and the right one. For me, the different roles of the backrow at a high level are:

6 - Physical presence and primary tackler.
7 - Jackler to put pressure on opposition ruck and if not win the penalty, then force them to commit numbers.
8 - Primary ball carrier

Everything after those primary attributes is a bonus.

I think looking to the new season, our best backrow would be , 6: Ruddock, 7: JVDF, 8: Doris. Conners for me is a 6 but only tackles, No ball carrying, no pressure on opposition ruck. Ruddock isn't as good a tackler but offers more in the other areas which is why he starts for me. No other options at 7 as of yet. Doris in better form than Conan and Deegan.

I think Ruddock got injured a few weeks back and was due to start one of the games and had to pull out. Never got another shot as there was no time.